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The "Nakba" Myth

Cut out the bickering, the off-topic posting, and the personal attacks NOW folks. This is the second time this thread has had a bunch of stuff sent to AAH. For your sakes, let us hope it is the last.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Tricky
 
2,000 since they were expelled by he Romans. That's a lot longer.

That myth has been debunked so many times it is a wonder it is still around. The oldest debunking I have read was from the 5th c. Although the original order has not survived all mentions of it clearly indicate the expulsion was from the rebuilt city that was once called Jerusalem and nothing else.

If the Jews left Judea, from which the modern name Jew is derived, it was of their own choice as there was no expulsion by Rome.

Any gripe is with Italy not with the Palestinians.

The Palestinians are the descendants of people who converted from Judaism to Islam and Christianity. For those who missed it, that is where all the Judeans went.

Any complaint about expulsion from Jerusalem they should take up with Italy. Berlesconi might give them the time of day just for laughs.
 
One can only hope that once a peace deal is signed, Israel and the Arabs will accept shared responsibility for the Nakba. 100,000 or so refugees will be allowed to return to Israel as law-abiding citizens, and an international regime to compensate the other 600,000 or so refugees for their lost property.
 
One can only hope that once a peace deal is signed, Israel and the Arabs will accept shared responsibility for the Nakba. 100,000 or so refugees will be allowed to return to Israel as law-abiding citizens, and an international regime to compensate the other 600,000 or so refugees for their lost property.

That is very like expecting the rapist and the rapee to share responsibility. The woman does not invite rape no matter how she behaves and no matter what she wears.

Return the property to the rightful owners as European countries are expected to do.

Justice is equal and for all.
 
I would say, and I hope you would agree that it's reasonable, that anyone who believed they would be killed if they did not leave should be placed in the "involuntary" category.

Do you agree?



I will cheerfully admit ignorance on the matter of what proportion fled voluntarily and what proportion fled involuntarily, and invite you to provide your own numbers with sourcing so that we may debate them.

Fair enough?
No its not fair enough. It would be preferable if you would build a minimum understanding of a topic before attempting to participate. You express ignorance of the numbers yet you used to remember....you used to remember that the large majority left of thier own accord.
 
You understand I was pointing out the Palestinians are behaving as Americans would behave in the same circumstances.

Meaning condemnation of Palestinians is the height of self-serving hypocrisy.

So you think Americans are that prone to genocidal rage?

I disagree.
 
African-Americans went on a mass movement of non-violent protest, to end very violent police brutality, lynchings, and segregation in half the states of the USA.

Had the Palestinians adopted such methods, Israel would have been shamed into giving them a state, decades ago.
 
so, the Nakba Deniers are now willing to admit that a couple hundred thousand Arabs were indeed forced out of Israel by the Zionist forces?

this is a start. if you admit that a few hundred thousand Arab civilians indeed were forced from Israel, than you are no longer a Nakba Denier....but are simply a Nakba minimizer.

:)

Why don't you tell us the exact proportions of people who left voluntarily versus the numbers who were forced out. Be sure to source your information.
 
Why don't you tell us the exact proportions of people who left voluntarily versus the numbers who were forced out. Be sure to source your information.

ive already posted such info.
 
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African-Americans went on a mass movement of non-violent protest, to end very violent police brutality, lynchings, and segregation in half the states of the USA.

Had the Palestinians adopted such methods, Israel would have been shamed into giving them a state, decades ago.

They did try that and the Zionist response was violence. That violence was excused by those whose loyalties are lie with Israel. For non-violence to succeed there must sympathy with those who are protesting. This is where the holy holocaust is invoked justifying any atrocity against those who would rise against the professional victims.

However you phrase the issue improperly. Israel need only end the occupation which is in violation of international law in the first place. It is a right being denied by the illegal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza.
 
ive already posted such info.

Those pages rely heavily on Benny Morris and Ilan Pappé. Many people believe those historians are controversial and polemic. Do you believe their conclusions are indisputable?
 
They did try that and the Zionist response was violence. That violence was excused by those whose loyalties are lie with Israel. For non-violence to succeed there must sympathy with those who are protesting. This is where the holy holocaust is invoked justifying any atrocity against those who would rise against the professional victims.

I would point out the response in the US was violence also, but in the end non-violence won out and I think our society is better for it.

What specific events in Israel are you referring to?
 
So you think Americans are that prone to genocidal rage?

I disagree.

I said if Jews had declared their Israel in New York City Americans would have killed them. So also the Palestinians are exhibiting the normal human reaction to the theft of their private property by terrorists.

Violence in defense of life and property is one of the things Kant categorized as a moral imperative. Resistance to Zionism is therefore an moral imperative.

No one was ever forced to be a Zionist.

The UN definition of genocide does not include the elimination of the members of a murdering, thieving political movement.

The Nakba is the remembrance of that open season of murder and theft by the Zionists.
 
Those pages rely heavily on Benny Morris and Ilan Pappé. Many people believe those historians are controversial and polemic. Do you believe their conclusions are indisputable?

What we do know is that the Zionists have relied and still rely upon the propaganda lie that the attacking armies, armies attacking trying to stop the murder and expulsion, told them to leave.

Now that we know that was a lie, Zionists are given no serious consideration when they change tactics and try to argue the reason was still somewhat like that lie.
 
I would point out the response in the US was violence also, but in the end non-violence won out and I think our society is better for it.

However that method did not work in South Africa. For it to have a chance to work the perpetrator must have a conscience. That is not a known characteristic of racial supremacists.

What specific events in Israel are you referring to?

For example, the children of non-violent protesters were arrested and held without charges and usually beaten. The children were hold hostage to their parents behavior. If the Brits had stooped that low they might have stopped Gandhi. As I said, it requires the perp to have a conscience which the Brits apparently did.

These days the IDF regularly kills someone during "peaceful" protests with live fire, aimed tear gas canisters, or just wades in and starts beating the crap out of them. That these things are reported in the European media but not the US media. There appears to be an intrinsic difference in US media.
 
Those pages rely heavily on Benny Morris and Ilan Pappé. Many people believe those historians are controversial and polemic. Do you believe their conclusions are indisputable?

Benny Morris actually came out against people abusing his material and said that there was no pre-planned expulsions of Palestinians. He said there were some expulsions and some left but all of it was a consequence of the war. (and we all know who started that.)
 
As for Ilan Pappe, he's a notorious case of a far-far-left loon. As DE notes below, his "research" is essentially one big collection of lies whose purpose isn't to reach the truth but to lie about the Jews so as to blacken their name unjustly. Much like Chomsky & co.'s "research".
 
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I said if Jews had declared their Israel in New York City Americans would have killed them.

And you describe it with such vivid imagery. One might think you’ve spent more than a passing hour concocting your fantasy. Let’s hope your imagined spasms of violence provide you with the relief you were looking for, the rest of us don’t need to know what you might be capable of if you don’t get that kind of release.

So also the Palestinians are exhibiting the normal human reaction to the theft of their private property by terrorists.

Violence in defense of life and property is one of the things Kant categorized as a moral imperative. Resistance to Zionism is therefore an moral imperative.

I once watched a Jerry Springer show where this attractive but abhorrent young woman bragged that her prison boyfriend was serving a life sentence for strangling a man with a shoelace because he suspected the man of taking $10 from his wallet. Even though he was in prison, she bragged that “nobody messes with my man.”

But then people watch Jerry Springer because the values we see there are not like most people. Thankfully.

It’s been a very long time since I’ve studied Kant, but I don’t remember him being as violent as you describe.

The UN definition of genocide does not include the elimination of the members of a murdering, thieving political movement.

The UN frowns on more than just genocide. It’s generally accepted that once you defeat your enemy, the violence should stop. It’s even encouraged that you can defeat them without using violence.

For example, there is a political movement in the South West United States called Aztlan, which seeks to form its own country out of parts of the US and Mexico for the indigenous peoples of the Americas. So far “defeating” them hasn’t required anything more violent than ignoring them. It hasn’t been necessary for any of them to be found face down, floating in the Rio Grande river.


However that method did not work in South Africa. For it to have a chance to work the perpetrator must have a conscience.

Ooh! Good thing then that the Israelis adept at such non-lethal methods as the use of rubber bullets, and are pioneers in methods as of reducing civilian casualties by giving advanced warnings by text messaging and dropped leaflets.

That is not a known characteristic of racial supremacists.

I see you are an aficionado of irony.

These days the IDF regularly kills someone during "peaceful" protests with live fire, aimed tear gas canisters, or just wades in and starts beating the crap out of them. That these things are reported in the European media but not the US media. There appears to be an intrinsic difference in US media.

Oh, they eat babies too. But in their defense, only the most tender and savory ones.
 

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