The "Nakba" Myth

[Mycroft]

equating Gaza flotilla incident with 9-11? okee dokee

I don't see anyone comparing the incidents. I see lot's of people comparing the bizarre logic used by conspiracy theorists to describe the two events.

equating charges of war crimes against the IDF with Blood Libels? okee dokee

When they're as stupid as blood libels, yes. Also the motivations behind making the charges.

comparing the Nakba to the Shoah? not okee dokee

For the same reason it's stupid to compare Obama or Bush to Hitler. Whatever complaints there are against their policies, they're just not comparable.

And also because the attempt to equate Israel to Nazi Germany is specifically targeted to be offensive to Jews.

comparing bigotry against Muslims to anti-Semitism? not okee dokee.

I haven't seen this argument made anywhere. Source?

comparing Hamas and Fatah to the Nazis? okee dokee.

Because they share many of the same characteristics including the stated goals of killing Jews.

comparing the IDF to Nazis? not okee dokee.

See above.

comparing Arab nationalism to fascism? okee dokee.

No...I don't see where anyone compared Arab nationalism to fascism. I have myself made the argument that Arab nationalism can be the nationalistic component to fascism, but that's true of any nationalism. It's certainly not unique to Arab nationalism.

comparing Jewish nationalism to fascism? not okee dokee.

I don't see where anyone made that comparison, nor where anyone complained about it

...looks like a double-standard to me.

It really seems like you are either incapable of understanding other's arguments or you purposefully misunderstand them. Why is it that you're here?

 

[Mycroft]

If Zionists had declared their Israel in New York City all of them would have been floating face down in the Hudson within 24 hours.

Right. Because in the United States of America the only way we know how to handle disputes is through wholesale slaughter.

 

[Mycroft]

well apparently, YOU don't.

posted by Wildcat: "And most didn't leave because they were kicked out, they left so their Arab brothers could carry out their stated aim of killing every Israeli. They couldn't bear to live with Jews."

posted by MikeMangum: "Because not allowing to people return to land they left voluntarily (most of them) is exactly the same as stuffing people into ovens by the millions."

I'm looking at both those quotes, and I don't see where either of them say no Arabs at all were forced out of Israel. In fact both of them specifically acknowledge that some were.

 

[Thunder]

I'm looking at both those quotes, and I don't see where either of them say no Arabs at all were forced out of Israel. In fact both of them specifically acknowledge that some were.

oh sure, they admit a few thousand here & there.

but they also say the vast majority left on their own, not forced out by the Zionists.

meanwhile, you have yet to prove that I blaim Jews for anti-Semitism.

 

[Mycroft]

oh sure, they admit a few thousand here & there.

but they also say the vast majority left on their own, not forced out by the Zionists.

And what does the evidence say? Isn't it true that some left voluntarily and some were force out?

meanwhile, you have yet to prove that I blaim Jews for anti-Semitism.

We'll get to that later.

 

[Matt Giwer]

Right. Because in the United States of America the only way we know how to handle disputes is through wholesale slaughter.

And you expect better from the Palestinian victims of zionist terror? Why?

 

[Matt Giwer]

The izziehuggers object to comparing the Shoah to the Nakba. Fine with me.

A few years ago I noticed in my daily readings of haaretz.com and jpost.com that this holocaust thing was being raised quite often by Israeli politicians and rabbis. I started collecting a few of what the Shoah was being compared to and kept a short list of the more interesting comparisons.

The Shoah was no worse than Saddam Hussein, Yassar Arafat, Slobadan Milosevic, Amadinejad, or women praying at the Wailing Wall for that matter because these are the public and uncondemned comparisons which have been made by Israeli politicians and rabbis.

Why is it a comparison to the Shoah to the Nakba is condemned when comparison to women praying at the Wailing Wall brings no condemnation in Israel?

Can someone please explain this without the "you wouldn't understand" cop out?

 

[Thunder]

We'll get to that later.

How about you get to that NOW. otherwise, don't make disgusting attacks against Jewish people, accusing us of blaiming fellow Jews for 2,000 years of inexcusable bigotry against us.

 

[The Fool]

And what does the evidence say? Isn't it true that some left voluntarily and some were force out?

just to check your understanding....If people were shot in a villiage and in surrounding villages people fled when they heard about the shootings....would you count them as leaving voluntarily?

Its just that the claim that the overwhelming majority left of thier own accord is a standard line among Nakba deniers and I really would like to find out how you possibly come up with this...

 

[Thunder]

The most moderate breakdown I have seen, puts it at about 50/50.

50% of Arabs left by choice, others left at the point of a gun or threat of violence.

 

[Mycroft]

And you expect better from the Palestinian victims of zionist terror? Why?

Better than what? You did understand I was being sarcastic, didn't you?

 

[Mycroft]

that is a BIG **** ing difference between:

"a few thousand were forced out by the Haganah and irregular forces, but most Arabs left of their own free will, egged on by the calls of genocide by the Arab leaders".

though I don't expect you to grasp this.

That's not from Wildcat or MikeMangum. Who is it that you're quoting?

 

[Mycroft]

just to check your understanding....If people were shot in a villiage and in surrounding villages people fled when they heard about the shootings....would you count them as leaving voluntarily?

I would say, and I hope you would agree that it's reasonable, that anyone who believed they would be killed if they did not leave should be placed in the "involuntary" category.

Do you agree?

Its just that the claim that the overwhelming majority left of thier own accord is a standard line among Nakba deniers and I really would like to find out how you possibly come up with this...

I will cheerfully admit ignorance on the matter of what proportion fled voluntarily and what proportion fled involuntarily, and invite you to provide your own numbers with sourcing so that we may debate them.

Fair enough?

 

[Thunder]

I will cheerfully admit ignorance on the matter of what proportion fled voluntarily and what proportion fled involuntarily, and invite you to provide your own numbers with sourcing so that we may debate them.

Fair enough?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes....80.99s_.E2.80.98Four_Waves.E2.80.99_analysis

Wikipedia, while not perfect, is a great source of preliminary and quick research.

Benny Morris seems to agree with my earlier remarks, that a good half or more of the refugees were forced out or left out of fear of violence.

and of course, there were the massacres of Arab civilians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_and_massacres_during_the_1948_Palestine_War#Scale

 

[bigjelmapro]

May I direct your attention to the following?

Ilan Pappe, The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine
Tom Segev
Benny Morris, 1948
Prof Avi Shlaim, THE IRON WALL, Israel and the Arab World
Avi Shlaim
Shimha Flapan

I knew you followed these authors. Was hoping for a bit of a mix, but you chose the sensationalist deep end of the 'new historian' lot. Albeit, Morris does make amends with his mistakes answering to Karsh's requests:

ie: Benny Morris and the Reign of Error

Got a useless book myself of Segev, The Middle East: A Brief History of the Last 2000 Years, sitting on my shelf. Utterly useless paperweight now.

So you can 'direct' me to where I've been before, but may I suggest mixing up your authors a little bit rather than sticking to the extremes of Pappe and Shlaim?

 

[bigjelmapro]

So you do actually compare them?

I've thought of it, but there's too many differences and has merely been used for guilt by association motifs, which started with the Arab league's attempts to associate Zionism with Nazism and racism, quite hypocritically during the period of Pan Arabism. This then changed with the Arabs adopting the false comparison of the Soviets in 1967 following the war, of Israel to apartheid South Africa. This has carried on until today...

 

[Matt Giwer]

Better than what? You did understand I was being sarcastic, didn't you?

You understand I was pointing out the Palestinians are behaving as Americans would behave in the same circumstances.

Meaning condemnation of Palestinians is the height of self-serving hypocrisy.

 

[Matt Giwer]

I knew you followed these authors. Was hoping for a bit of a mix, but you chose the sensationalist deep end of the 'new historian' lot. Albeit, Morris does make amends with his mistakes answering to Karsh's requests:

ie: Benny Morris and the Reign of Error

Got a useless book myself of Segev, The Middle East: A Brief History of the Last 2000 Years, sitting on my shelf. Utterly useless paperweight now.

So you can 'direct' me to where I've been before, but may I suggest mixing up your authors a little bit rather than sticking to the extremes of Pappe and Shlaim?

Then you are fully aware of your support of jewish terror, theft and murder. I can move on with that working knowledge.

 

[a_unique_person]

Palestinians will never have their state if they keep being stuck in the past.

Onwards and upwards. Forget about the "disaster" already and move on.

2,000 since they were expelled by he Romans. That's a lot longer.

When Peters deals with the Arab refugees from Palestine in 1948, she argues that most Arabs fled on the instructions of their leaders. Yet Americans would know, from a prominent and relatively recent New York Times report, that Yitzhak Rabin had written in his own memoirs of giving the order to expel some 50,000 Arabs at Lydda and Ramleh.4 Peters thus needs to show that most of the refugees were not expelled in this fashion; as evidence she cites a study: "According to a research report by the Arab-sponsored Institute for Palestine Studies in Beirut, however, 'the majority' of the Arab refugees in 1948 were not expelled, and '68%' left without seeing an Israeli soldier [p. 13, note 21]."

http://www.capitalismmagazine.com/index.php?news=2140

 

[Thunder]

so, the Nakba Deniers are now willing to admit that a couple hundred thousand Arabs were indeed forced out of Israel by the Zionist forces?

this is a start. if you admit that a few hundred thousand Arab civilians indeed were forced from Israel, than you are no longer a Nakba Denier....but are simply a Nakba minimizer.