The "Nakba" Myth

[fuelair]

That might have something to do with the Arab world, as well as their own Palestinian brothers in the PA, deliberately keeping them in refugee camps, not giving them citizenship, etc., etc.

The only legitimate goal for a Palestinian refugee in life is to destroy Israel through the "right of return", the thinking goes. Anything else is not allowed.

When you're dealing with turkey farming expect incomprehensible gobbling.
When you are dealing the the uncomprehending, expect incomprehension. It's one of those rules of life.

 

[JihadJane]

Should the US had back the nation to it's indigenous people?

Yes.

 

[a_unique_person]

How will things move forward if they constantly refer to the creation of Israel as their catastrophe? How are they ever going to accept Israel?

How long did it take for the Irish to accept the rule of the English, then the creation of Norther Ireland? Or the Indians the rule of the English, or the American Indians the creation of the USA? If history is any guide, this can go on for centuries.

 

[DC]

What country are you from Matt?

Should the US had back the nation to it's indigenous people?

well in another thread you were al for giving back stolen things to their owners..........

 

[bigjelmapro]

I fully realize it is almost impossible to make the Zionists look good in this matter. But please Palestinians are the only ones who did not make war on the Jewish terrorists. They are the pure victims.

Although I would agree that the brunt of Palestinian Arabs were victims of war and displacement, there was, however, active groups of Palestinian irregulars trained by the Arab league that did partake in the hostilities, from the outbreak of the riots in the mid 1930's to the 1948 war.

The Palestinians were mostly victims to having such an irresponsible local and national leadership that led to these wars and the ongoing conflict.

The Zionists did not like the Brits interfering with their criminal activities in Palestine in the 1920s and 30s. Back then they invented the price tag policy. When a zionist was arrested by the Brits the zionists would terrorize the Palestinians. One of their favorite methods was to set off bombs in Palestinian market places to kill the most women and children as possible.

Nice blanket statement. Irgun and Stern gang members involved in terrorist attacks against Arab targets were on numerous occasions handed in to the British, where a number were hanged. But don't let that get in the way...

 

[bigjelmapro]

The zionist propaganda that they left voluntarily was exposed as a lie from the moment it was invented. It has been thoroughly trashed by jewish, Israeli historians using Israeli government records. Why do people continue to repeat such long discredited nonsense?

The most detailed explanation of events of Palestinian Arabs leaving on their own accord is from Haifa, under the recommendations by Haifa's local Arab leadership.

There are several more cases, ie Beer Sheva. Much of which is supported by Arab intellectuals. This has been mentioned in other threads, if you wish to actually join this debate.

So not propaganda, ie disinformation.

While the comparison between marxist Castro and marxist Zionism is apt it is unusual. Israel first tried to obtain patronage from Stalin but for some unpublished reason that deal fell through. It then settled for France and finally that idiot Nixon took on the burden of supporting that pissant country.

Unpublished and uncited. Vociferous as well.

 

[MikeMangum]

Citizenship in what? You appear to forget Jews wiped Palestine off the map and no one misses it.

The last time there was a sovereign nation with boundaries roughly similar to those of present day Israel and Palestine, the name of that nation was Israel. There wasn't even a province named Palestine under the Ottomans, although the British did split their League of Nations mandate into the territories of Palestine and Transjordan.

If you want to blame anyone for 'wiping Palestine off the map', blame the British, the League of Nations, and the UN.

 

[Matt Giwer]

The most detailed explanation of events of Palestinian Arabs leaving on their own accord is from Haifa, under the recommendations by Haifa's local Arab leadership.

There are several more cases, ie Beer Sheva. Much of which is supported by Arab intellectuals. This has been mentioned in other threads, if you wish to actually join this debate.

So not propaganda, ie disinformation.

Unpublished and uncited. Vociferous as well.

Except for the minor problem that the zionists have never produced any evidence for these claims therefore it remains propaganda. One would expect had it really happened there would be much documentation of who said it and the source of the information that it was said and of course evidence that it was a deciding factor. Such material has never been produced. Should it be produced I am more than happy to admit it but after 62 years of nothing I will not hold my breath waiting.

Again, Israeli historians using Israeli records have found no such thing but that terrorists drove them out using massacres to make their point.

 

[Virus]

lots of folks don't give a **** about the Israelis.

Lots of folks are obsessed with them.

 

[Matt Giwer]

Although I would agree that the brunt of Palestinian Arabs were victims of war and displacement, there was, however, active groups of Palestinian irregulars trained by the Arab league that did partake in the hostilities, from the outbreak of the riots in the mid 1930's to the 1948 war.

The Jews began attacking Palestinians in the 1920s. That some Palestinians may have gotten some formal training to improve their defensive measures is hardly unlikely. In all cases the Palestinians could only have been acting in self defense at any time as the zionists were the aggressors.

But I was responding about NATIONAL groups. A few individuals is not a national group. It would be equally foolish to blame all Jews for the crimes of the zionists instead of just the Jews who supported and support zionism.

The Palestinians were mostly victims to having such an irresponsible local and national leadership that led to these wars and the ongoing conflict.

They were promised self-government and the Brits prohibited it. They had no national leadership as any attempting to become one found himself in a Brit prison or exiled to Cyprus. The first Palestinian riot for self-government was in 1926 if I remember correctly.

But is all cases the initiation of the violence was by the Zionists as their policy was solely theft and murder.

Nice blanket statement. Irgun and Stern gang members involved in terrorist attacks against Arab targets were on numerous occasions handed in to the British, where a number were hanged. But don't let that get in the way...

The only good terrorist is a dead terrorist -- the same could be said for good zionists. Why should terrorists not be executed? They are by definition murderers. One assumes the Brits went through the formality of fair trials.

There is nothing good that can be said about zionists, at least I have come across nothing. Perhaps you know of something good about them and are willing to share.

 

[Virus]

Israel first tried to obtain patronage from Stalin but for some unpublished reason that deal fell through. It then settled for France and finally that idiot Nixon took on the burden of supporting that pissant country.

Thanks for joining the forum and setting the standard for how seriously your posts should be taken.

The standard of Justice for the Palestinians is the same one Jews demand for Jews.

No, the Palestinians want to kill all the Jews and destroy the state of Israel. There isn't even a fringe movement of Jews that dream of going to war with with Germany.

 

[MikeMangum]

When Israel can produce land treaties with the Palestinians the same as the US has with the Indians get back to me.

How could there be a 'treaty' between two groups of people, neither of which were sovereign? Keep in mind that there was no Israel, and the 'Palestinians' (who didn't exist as a unique people...yet, they were simply 'Arabs who lived in Palestine') weren't in control of the British territory of Palestine. The Jews who lived in that British Territory did have an agreement with the British government that controlled the territory, a League of Nations mandate that specifically mentioned creating a Jewish homeland, and a UN resolution partitioning the British territory of Palestine.

There was, however, the Faisal-Weizmann Agreement^WP, which would be the closest thing to a treaty.

 

[Matt Giwer]

The last time there was a sovereign nation with boundaries roughly similar to those of present day Israel and Palestine, the name of that nation was Israel.

I am sorry but there is no archaeological evidence for that assertion. As such it is simply a fantasy place invented by the creators of the Septuagint in the 2nd c. BC. Religious traditions are not admissible to factual discussions.

There wasn't even a province named Palestine under the Ottomans, although the British did split their League of Nations mandate into the territories of Palestine and Transjordan.

Herodotus was in the region in the mid 5th c. BC and mentions Palestine seven times and in context is equivalent to Syria and Cyprus.

If you want to blame anyone for 'wiping Palestine off the map', blame the British, the League of Nations, and the UN.

At no time did Balfour or the mandate or the UN say anything about giving private property of Palestinians to the thieving, murdering zionists.

In fact all three specifically say the rights of the Palestinians shall not be compromised in any way. All three of those sources knew the land was not their's to give.

Israel is still in violation of the UN Security Council resolution which demanded the return of the refugees. It is also in violation of the condition of its membership in the UN which is also the return of the refugees. There are more than fifty other UNSC resolutions of which it is in violation.

 

[Matt Giwer]

How could there be a 'treaty' between two groups of people, neither of which were sovereign?

Call it an agreement. Call it whatever you wish. The US is in a lawful position with regard to the Indians which the Indians accept today.

Keep in mind that there was no Israel, and the 'Palestinians' (who didn't exist as a unique people...yet, they were simply 'Arabs who lived in Palestine')

The Palestinians are people whose ancestors had converted from Judaism to Islam either directly or via Christianity. That they speak Arabic is like saying American Indians are Europeans. And yet this fool ancient chestnut keeps being repeated by people who otherwise appear intelligent enough to know better.

weren't in control of the British territory of Palestine.

The Brits had a mandate to bring Palestine to self government although they were derelict in that duty. There was no sovereign British territory in Palestine.

The Jews who lived in that British Territory did have an agreement with the British government that controlled the territory, a League of Nations mandate that specifically mentioned creating a Jewish homeland, and a UN resolution partitioning the British territory of Palestine.

The items you mention all specifically state the rights of the Palestinians shall not in any way be harmed by the declarations contained in them. Homeland did not have a connotation of sovereignty except to the Nazis.

There was, however, the Faisal-Weizmann Agreement^WP, which would be the closest thing to a treaty.

Palestinians are not a party to it. Therefore the US position regarding the native Americans is infinitely superior to that of the Zionists.

Again why the effort to say what they are doing to the Palestinians is not better than the genocide of the American Indians? This entire approach appears counter-productive.

 

[Matt Giwer]

Thanks for joining the forum and setting the standard for how seriously your posts should be taken.

What does Israel's failure to obtain patronage from Stalin have to do with what I post?

No, the Palestinians want to kill all the Jews and destroy the state of Israel. There isn't even a fringe movement of Jews that dream of going to war with with Germany.

Lets get the terms of this discussion straight. Jews had lived in peace in Palestine for over a thousand years. The Muslims of Palestine are people whose ancestors converted from Judaism to Islam. There were Jewish armies fighting alongside Mohamed. None of them were happy with the foreigners flooding Palestine with their talk of taking over and throwing out the Muslims and Christians.

Killing zionists who openly said talked about their plans could have been nothing more than a pro-active response.

These foreigners had no right to anything in Palestine that was not done lawfully. Please stop dropping the "jews" into this. The subject is zionists who were also Jews. By their own writings all Zionists were thieves and murderers. That does not mean all Jews were thieves and murderers. Zionists are always trying to hide behind being Jews. It is about the only place they can hide but it does give all Jews a very bad name. It is an even worse name that Jews around the world got when 92% supported that atrocity in Gaza 18 months ago.

 

[Matt Giwer]

Lots of folks are obsessed with them.

Which is obviously the way they want it. Speaking as an American whose news comes out of New York City where the credits for the news production staff could come from the Tel Aviv telephone directory I find Israel gets more coverage than any one state in the United States. It certainly gets more coverage than any other country except for war coverage.

As Max Bialistok said, When you got it flaunt it!

The national news plays to the NYC audience and NYC thinks the world revolves around it.

 

[MikeMangum]

At no time did Balfour or the mandate or the UN say anything about giving private property of Palestinians to the thieving, murdering zionists.

You don't say?

*backs away slowly*

Well, nice talking with you!

 

[Matt Giwer]

You don't say?

*backs away slowly*

Well, nice talking with you!

You are free to cite anything you wish in rebuttal. Rather you posted a threadbare response that was old on the BBSs in the 80s.

If you continue to read what I post you may learn something about the subject that is outside the Israeli Hasbara manual and talking points.

Hasbara == propaganda == Isreality

 

[lionking]

well in another thread you were al for giving back stolen things to their owners..........

Huh? It was a rhetorical question.

 

[lionking]

When Israel can produce land treaties with the Palestinians the same as the US has with the Indians get back to me.

What? So treaties extracted under threat of extermination was all the the Israeli's needed? Do you realise how nonsensical this argument is?