The "Nakba" Myth

[Thunder]

Here's a good article. Why I don't care about the Palestinians

lots of folks don't give a **** about the Israelis.

 

[Lamafarmer]

Should.. not.. stress.. membership.. agreement..

 

[Thunder]

Should.. not.. stress.. membership.. agreement..

do..what...you..think..is....right.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Do you have some grandfather who came to Australia because he fled, say, WWI or WWII? What would you say if the Australians, outraged at the injustice of WWI, kept you and your parents and everybody in your family in refugee camps for three generations because of that? And declared that you, and your family, would continue to live in refugee camps unless and until you get back your Austro-Hungarian citizenship and be deported back to Europe, when the Kaiser's descendants finally apologize?

He's probably living in Australia because his great-great-great-great-grandfather stole a horse.

 

[Saggy]

BY the "Anti Israel Crowd" I meant those who basically want to Israel eliminated. Most of them say they want a "Secular Palestinian State" in it's place,but anybody with a inch of sense can see that is about as likely to happen as Hell Freezing over.
It was not aimed at you, but at allanb who seemed to imply that Israel has no right to exist.
A lot of Isreali policies are stupid. I always felt the settlement policy was idiotic.

The secular state is the only feasible solution in Palestine that can hope to achieve stability. That opinion is surprisingly being expressed by some factions of the Israeli right ....

http://www.haaretz.com/magazine/friday-supplement/endgame-1.302128

 

[Thunder]

The secular state is the only feasible solution in Palestine that can hope to achieve stability. That opinion is surprisingly being expressed by some factions of the Israeli right http://

Frankly, I think the Israelis and Palestinians need some time apart.

they are in no way ready to live in the same country.

 

[Virus]

The secular state is the only feasible solution in Palestine that can hope to achieve stability. That opinion is surprisingly being expressed by some factions of the Israeli right ....

When has secularism ever been a significant movement amongst Arab Muslims?

 

[MikeMangum]

when you deny the suffering and persecution of others, you have no right to complain and bitch about your own suffering and persecution.

Because not allowing to people return to land they left voluntarily (most of them) is exactly the same as stuffing people into ovens by the millions.

Gotcha.

 

[Matt Giwer]

Here's a sample:The literal meaning of the Arabic word is “disaster”; but in its current, expansive usage, it connotes a historical catastrophe inflicted on an innocent and blameless people (in this case, the Palestinians) by an overpowering outside force (international Zionism).
...
Every year, the legend grows of the crimes committed against the Palestinians in 1948, crimes now routinely equated with the Holocaust.

Nakbah means disaster. What a surprise. Shoah means disaster. Same thing. Holocaust is the Hollywood name for Shoah. Shoah is what it is called in Israel. Disaster is what it is called in Israel. The worst Palestinians can be accused of is perhaps trademark infringement.

One disaster is very like another.

And of course the Palestinians were innocent in this matter. It was not their idea for a bunch of foreigners to show up in Palestine and steal their land. That started in the first decade of the 20th c. By the 1920s Jabotinsky's Revisionist movement (currently embodied by the ruling Likud party) openly declared their intention to use force to expel the owners of the land.

Obviously they had to be gotten rid of -- spirited across the border as Herzl put it -- else the first election would have trashcanned the entire Zionist land grab -- enterprise as it is called in Israel.

And this was piled onto the Palestinians after being denied independence as they were promised for supporting Britain in WWI -- rent Lawrence of Arabia for a dramatization of the details. The more technically minded can look into the Sykes-Picot agreement.

Of course the Palestinians in Israel are equally victims as almost all of them were driven off their private property and forced into ghettos where they lived until curfew for some ten years. The curfew only ended after 20 or so were massacred for violating the curfew.

This is not a secret. The Palestinian narrative of the Disaster has been confirmed by Israeli writers using Israeli government records. Tom Segev, Benny Morris, and Ilan Pappe are among them. The massacres were real. The terrorism was real.

I have no idea why supporters of Israel continue to recite zionist propaganda (Hasbara, Isreality) that has been discredited for decades and often as soon as it was created.

 

[Matt Giwer]

How will things move forward if they constantly refer to the creation of Israel as their catastrophe? How are they ever going to accept Israel?

The Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.

The standard of justice for Palestinians is the same as the standard of justice Jews demand for themselves from Germany, Poland and lord knows how many other countries. Talk about living in the past ...

 

[lionking]

The Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.

The standard of justice for Palestinians is the same as the standard of justice Jews demand for themselves from Germany, Poland and lord knows how many other countries. Talk about living in the past ...

What country are you from Matt?

Should the US had back the nation to it's indigenous people?

 

[Matt Giwer]

That's what Nakba means.

Or, how about the facts that the Palestinians in the Palestinian authority refuse to give Palestinians in refugee camps there Palestinian citizenship, lest they stop being used as a demographic time bomb to destroy Israel with the "right of return"?

Citizenship in what? You appear to forget Jews wiped Palestine off the map and no one misses it. That is the precedent for wiping Israel off the map. It won't be missed any more than Palestine was missed even though it had been around for at least 2500 years whereas there is no evidence there was an Israel prior to modern times.

I'd say that's taking the Nakba a a catastrophe to be overturned one blessed day when Israel is destroyed.

So is the situation in the other refugee camps throughout the Arab world -- kept in chains for 60 years by their Arab "brothers". Because their (by now) great-grandparents fled a war 60 years ago.

How is it that Jewish crimes against the Palestinians falls to Muslims to ameliorate? Justice, the same justice Jews demand for themselves, must be provided by the perpetrators of the crimes against the Palestinians. They own the land. They have the deeds. Israel using the color of law to steal the land is no different than the color of law used by Germany, Poland, Hungary and other countries during WWII.

About 95% of the Palestinian "refugees" today are not refugees by any definition -- no more than you or most people here are refugees because some of our ancestors fled WWI or WWII. Nor are those who actually fled usually considered refugees once they are resettled.

Obviously they are refugees by the UN definition which is why the US designates them refugees. Whose reality are you trying to impose?

They are, in reality, not refugees, but the Arab world's prisoners, or hostages, whose misery has one, and only one, reason: the desire to "undo the Nakba" by destroying Israel.

Jews perpetrated these crimes, theft and murder, upon the Palestinians. What kind of argument is it that frees Jews from the obligations of simple justice?

Do you have some grandfather who came to Australia because he fled, say, WWI or WWII? What would you say if the Australians, outraged at the injustice of WWI, kept you and your parents and everybody in your family in refugee camps for three generations because of that? And declared that you, and your family, would continue to live in refugee camps unless and until you get back your Austro-Hungarian citizenship and be deported back to Europe, when the Kaiser's descendants finally apologize?

Part of your confusion in this is your assumption they fled voluntarily. They were driven out by Jewish terrorists of the Irgun, Haganah, Stern Gang and a dozen others. Deir Yassin really was a massacre, a wanton criminal massacre by terrorists. This is not in question. It is a jewish fable they were told to leave, a very self-serving fable.

What would you say if Israel kept all the Israeli refugees from Europe or the Arab world and their families in camps for 60 years? That would make Israel a huge prison camp with a few "old timers" running the place while constantly exhibiting the camps and saying -- "look how we were mistreated! Shame on them!".

In fact Israel never had many actual refugees from Europe and most of those arrived in Palestine with the aid of the German government in the 1930s. It was called The Transfer, Ha'Avara, agreement. I saw a PBS interview of some of them in Israel back in the 1990s. They were proud of their German heritage, played Wagner and one couple even had a large portrait of Hitler on the wall.

Those who arrived after the war were fleeing nothing at all. But when they arrived they were scorned as cowards who had not fought back. Israel had yet to learn to use them as money train claiming reparations going to Israel not to the victims. Talk about cynical use of people ...

Come to think of it, that would make the Israelies... like the Palestinians, won't it?

Yet you and others support the old-timers who do this, by rallying behind the "Palestinian refugee problem". You are supporting, not the Palestinians, but their jailers and kidnappers who go by the stage name of "the Palestinian leadership" or "The Arab world's governments".

Jews stole the land. The owers want it back.

That is all there is to know about the problem.

It really is that simple.

 

[Matt Giwer]

Quite apart from the inaccuracy of the analogy in general, perhaps you should ask the American Indians this question. Are you leaving the USA soon? After all, you've just proven it has no right to exist.

There is a minor difference between the two. The US has peace treaties with the Indians. Israel obviously has no peace treaties with the Palestinians.

When Indians go to court 99 times out of a 100 it is to enforce the treaties not overturn them. Legal challenges to the treaties themselves are very rare.

The Indians stopped fighting. The Palestinians have never stopped fighting.

The Indians never claimed to have ownership of the land only a right to use the land -- prior to the treaties of course. The Palestinians DO in fact own the land with legal title deeds to it.

 

[Matt Giwer]

What's this Palestine you speak of? Could it include lands from which the armies of those who waged war against the newly founded Israel came?

I fully realize it is almost impossible to make the Zionists look good in this matter. But please Palestinians are the only ones who did not make war on the Jewish terrorists. They are the pure victims.

The Zionists did not like the Brits interfering with their criminal activities in Palestine in the 1920s and 30s. Back then they invented the price tag policy. When a zionist was arrested by the Brits the zionists would terrorize the Palestinians. One of their favorite methods was to set off bombs in Palestinian market places to kill the most women and children as possible.

This is not hidden history. It is well known.

 

[Matt Giwer]

That land has been called Palestine by many peoples, since around 135 AD.

In fact, as it comes from the Land of the Philistines, it was called Palestine by some even when it was also known as Judaea.

History. Read.

As as for the Jews of the Arab world, what did I say that caused you frustration?

Pardon but you are in error. In the mid 5th c. BC Herodotus traveled to that part of the Persian empire. He mentions Palestine seven times.

What is interesting is that he makes no mention of any Judeans or anyone who could have been them even when he discusses the people who practice circumcision, aka ritual genital mutilation.

Compounding this the when Alexander rolled through a century and a half later there is no mention of any Judeans in the region. In fact there is no mention of any Judeans in history until Pompey arrives in 67 BC.

Philistine is not really a problem. There is nothing to suggest they are other than a name created by the fiction writers who created the Septuagint. As both real history and archaeology have shown the stories in the Septuagint have no factual relation to the people and events the real history of Palestine there is no reason to assume Philistines really existed than there is to assume Atlanteans really existed just because Plato wrote of them.

There is no historical mention of Judea until 67BC when Pompey arrives in the region. The back stories for them are the first three of the books of Maccabe but they have very little connection to real history.

 

[Matt Giwer]

i have never heard of this...please provide some evidence. The State of Israel does not represent the Jewish people, nor the Jews of Europe.

If anything, Jewish property that cannot be returned to former owners or their heirs, should go to the Jewish community of the city, town, or country.

Actually the property should revert to the state in which it exists as that is the common practice in such matters.

I am unaware of any western country which still grants special rights to members of a religion. There is no credible basis to create a special case for adherents to Judaism.

 

[Matt Giwer]

The Palestinians don't want compensation, they want to return to their houses (most of which no longer exist) and bring back 1 million relatives with them. And most didn't leave because they were kicked out, they left so their Arab brothers could carry out their stated aim of killing every Israeli. They couldn't bear to live with Jews.

The zionist propaganda that they left voluntarily was exposed as a lie from the moment it was invented. It has been thoroughly trashed by jewish, Israeli historians using Israeli government records. Why do people continue to repeat such long discredited nonsense?

BTW: A call for evidence is an old gambit but I am willing to play if you go first.

And it's the position of the US that the property seized by Castro should revert to those it was seized from... funny I don't see the same people bemoaning the fate of the Palestinians likewise bemoaning the fate of those Cubans who lost all their property to Castro, eh?

While the comparison between marxist Castro and marxist Zionism is apt it is unusual. Israel first tried to obtain patronage from Stalin but for some unpublished reason that deal fell through. It then settled for France and finally that idiot Nixon took on the burden of supporting that pissant country.

And can I go claim the land my great-grandparents lost to the French without compensation following WWI?

The standard of Justice for the Palestinians is the same one Jews demand for Jews.

 

[Matt Giwer]

What do you want to do with the Five Million Jews now in Israel?
I have never got a good response from the Anti Israel crowd on that one.

They are big boys. I am certain they can figure out something.

They knew the risk of living on stolen property when they went to Israel. If they did not plan for the eventuality that is no concern of anyone else. It is not the responsibility of others to save them from their own folly.

 

[Matt Giwer]

BY the "Anti Israel Crowd" I meant those who basically want to Israel eliminated. Most of them say they want a "Secular Palestinian State" in it's place,but anybody with a inch of sense can see that is about as likely to happen as Hell Freezing over.
It was not aimed at you, but at allanb who seemed to imply that Israel has no right to exist.
A lot of Isreali policies are stupid. I always felt the settlement policy was idiotic.

It should not be any more difficult or problematic than it was for Jews to wipe Palestine off the map after 2500 years. I really do not understand why people are so upset with getting rid of a nation of religious bigots.

How about a first step of repealing the law which makes it illegal for any Israeli political party or politician to advocate equal rights for all Israelis?

One hopes people know that non-Jews in Israel get the same or worse treatment than Blacks in Selma in the 1930s.

 

[Matt Giwer]

What country are you from Matt?

Should the US had back the nation to it's indigenous people?

When Israel can produce land treaties with the Palestinians the same as the US has with the Indians get back to me.

I find it quite surprising these days when the treatment of the Indians is condemned with descriptions starting with genocide and getting worse from there that izziehuggers are so willing to justify Israel's actions as being no better than genocide.