well, I said this
"making up words is not my idea of humour. No one uses baby talk any more -that meme has long since died."
which should have been fairly clear.
The mysterious "high level freemasons"
- Thread starter LightinDarkness
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well, I said this
"making up words is not my idea of humour. No one uses baby talk any more -that meme has long since died."
which should have been fairly clear.
JoeyDonuts
Frequencies Not Known To Normals
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Bob Blaylock
Forklift Operator
I have the opposite verification problem, since I'm not a Mason (obviously, since I'm female), but am LDS. It's my understanding (which I hope Bob will correct if I misstate anything) that Masonic ritual represents part of an ancient ceremony that was restored in part due to Joseph Smith's contact with Masonry (he and several other early members of the LDS church were Masons). That restored ceremony is now our Temple endowment.
I of course cannot confirm very much of this firsthand, lacking first-hand knowledge of Masonic ritual and having made covenants to not go into detail regarding Temple ordinances outside the Temple.
I've heard of it being claimed that the Freemasons date back to actual construction workers who were involved in building and maintaining Solomon's Temple; that because it was expedient in allowing them to go about their jobs, they were allowed to be present at ceremonies and rituals in which they would otherwise not have been involved, but were forbidden to discuss what they saw except among themselves. The story has it that after the Temple was destroyed, this group took it upon themselves to preserve what they could of these ceremonies; holding fast; of course, to their obligation to keep these within their group and not disclose them to anyone outside of their group.
It would stand to reason, if this claim were true, that the Freemasons of today would have ceremonies that bore some recognizable similarity to the ceremonies that actually took place in Solomon's Temple.
As a Mormon, it would not be any stretch, then, to suppose, even if no contact had ever occurred between Joseph Smith or any other church leaders, and the Freemasons, that our ceremonies may included restored forms of the original ceremonies that took place in Solomon's Temple, and would therefore bear a recognizable resemblance to the ceremonies that the Freemasons have, derived from that source.
I do not know the origin of this claim, or how much credibility to grant it. Assuming any similarity between the Masonic ceremonies and our own, this claim, if itself plausible, would certainly provide a plausible explanation for that similarity.
Now, as it happens, Joseph Smith was a Freemason. There are conflicting accounts as to just when he joined the Freemasons, relative to when he revealed the ceremonies that take place in our Temples.
In any event, I don't see how any account, accepted as true, of the connections between Freemasonry and early Mormonism creates any problem for us. Clearly, we believe that the ceremonies in which we participate in in our Temples are given to us by God, and are taking place in the context in which God intends them to take place. If anything was copied from the Freemasons, then I find no trouble in believing that the Freemasons were perhaps used by God as an instrument by which some bits of ancient knowledge and ceremony might be preserved until the time came to restore them to their proper form and context.
Of course, all this assumes that there really is some recognizable similarity between the ceremonies of these two different organizations. I think the only ones who could know this would be those who are both Freemasons and who are also Mormons who have been through the Temple. As an example of the latter, I am under sacred obligations to hold what I have experienced sacred and not disclose details thereof to outsiders. I understand Freemasons to be under similar obligations with regard to their ceremonies. Anyone from either group who purports to be disclosing such details could not be assumed to be a credible source of that which he claims to be disclosing — either he is violating sacred vows and covenants, and thus proving himself to be untrustworthy and dishonest; or else he is simply lying about the details that he claims to be disclosing.
I do know that there are many sites on the web that purport to reveal details of both groups' ceremonies. I cannot comment at all on the accuracy of the accounts of Masonic ceremonies; regarding Mormon ceremonies, I can say that there is considerably more falsehood than truth to be found on sites that purport to be disclosing our details. I won't say anything about what out there is specifically false, and what is true, other than to say that in general, the more bizarre it seems to you, the more likely it is to be false.
LightinDarkness
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Which is why I ponder why you wouldn't just leave. But then I remember you are trolling, and then I just have to laugh at your pathetic trolling attempts.
LightinDarkness
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This is a very good overview of masonic myth and legend but it is, we know from the research of many scholars, historically inaccurate. Historically freemasonry developed from stone mason guilds of the medieval ages, where the secrets of building were the key to being able to ensure ones own livelihood and were jealousy guarded by craft guilds. At some point the rich of the day, who had lots of money and little to do, asked to join the guilds to learn the "secrets." The guilds recognized this was a very easy way to soak rich people for lots of money. These rich people who joined were called "speculative" masons because they did not actually build but rather applied the principles and secrets of stone masonry to create what we now know of as freemasonic philosophy. Over time, speculative freemasonry was born.
Frankly speaking, Smith simply lifted large portions of masonic ritual and edited some parts to make it more religion oriented.
While masons are under obligations not to reveal certain signs, grips, and words, we can otherwise explain our ceremonies and realistically speaking masonic ritual has been exposed since around 1725. Mormon ritual has also been exposed for some time. Everyone can claim they are different now or whatever they want, but lets be blunt here and be honest: Yes, there are similarities, and yes, Joseph Smith basically at some points copied masonic ritual. I don't have a problem with it, but I'd never become a Mormon personally because I know masonic ritual is based in the secular and knowing that someone used it for religious ritual would devalue it for me. But hey, if it makes Mormons happy..whatever works!
Which is why I ponder why you wouldn't just leave. But then I remember you are trolling, and then I just have to laugh at your pathetic trolling attempts.
But you didn't even know who Ken Noye was. And you suggested that I use "freemasonry watch" as a source, when all I did was use my memory and The Independent newspaper.
So I expect that you laugh at things which just disappoint normal people. I just enjoy poking holes in people who are clearly twats. I have written a whole book about it.
LightinDarkness
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And you failed completely to prove anything about Ken Noye - so nice of you to know so much about him and yet fail in a spectacular manner to demonstrate that the charges against him had absolutely anything to do with freemasonry. In reality you showed its just yet another example of the Freemason witch hunt to find 1 person out of 5 million who has done something wrong and try to make a invalid causation claim.
Who cares if you've written a book? Unless it was peer reviewed, its incredibly easy to do and its probably vanity publishing, since given the tremendous lack of logic or intelligence you've displayed means no real publisher would take you seriously.
You've failed, troll. The story of your life, no doubt.
Did you even read the info about Noye? It is all there. And what Freemason whitch hunt? Noye is the most famous case involving them, but practically the only one - my masonic friends are all very decent people. There is no conspiracy at all involving any of them. Lookng at available info, it would seem that there is a conspiracy by non masons to ruin everything good. The reverse Midas touch.
And comic books do not get peer reviewed. "I just enjoy poking holes in people who are clearly twats. I have written a whole book about it." What do you think I wrote? How freemasons are taking over the world? Or how to wind up twats?
Checkmite, you put a long and interesting post up, but let me tell you leylines are real. Have spent a lot of time trying to understand them. Can dowse and feel them and on full moon my wife can see them. The mystery of migrating birds is I believe they can see them and follow them across the ocean. Have a interesting book called "The dissipation of Darkness" A banned book (when I find where I have put it) on the history of Masons. Very informative and out side the square, dry and hard to read. Will have some fun on this thread when I find it.
Glite
sexiest man alive
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Just as with any organization, we have things in common, and as a result, keep an eye on one another. (within limits, excluding covering up a crime etc.)
The highest degree in Freemasonry is the 3rd or Master Mason degree. All other numbers are affiliate bodies that came after the origonal lodges and have no rank in any Grand Lodge.
Conspiracy nuts love numbers, and can do creative things to make thier stories legit. Some people have done some pretty impressive things with the numbers 9 and 11, they're batsh!t insane, but creative I suppose.
The highest degree in Freemasonry is the 3rd or Master Mason degree. All other numbers are affiliate bodies that came after the origonal lodges and have no rank in any Grand Lodge.
Conspiracy nuts love numbers, and can do creative things to make thier stories legit. Some people have done some pretty impressive things with the numbers 9 and 11, they're batsh!t insane, but creative I suppose.
That's because its us Jews, not you Masons, who secretly rule the world.
(Is there such a thing as a "high level Jew"? Must involve calling one's mother a lot.)
I know little about The Mormons except they worship God, they may copy some Mason rituals but that would be it. Masons worship Lucifer. I have a old book called "The Dissipation of Darkness" when I find it again will be better armed as it's full of good stuff on Hiram and Levy and all the info a mason doesn't want to hear. Years ago in western Victoria a couple of the locals sneaked a smelly mad wild billy goat in the mason hallow room the day before a major meeting, they weren't happy to open the door and be met by billy urinating and whatever. Just had to laugh.
JoeyDonuts
Frequencies Not Known To Normals
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So how about the two of you apply for Randi's MDC? You can "dowse" your way into history and a million dollars.
Be advised though, there's a rather large obstacle called the "scientific method" standing in your way.
brodski
Tea-Time toad
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Jews in space?
Akhenaten
Heretic Pharaoh
11 - The age you act.
11 - The IQ you display.
11 - The number of kangaroos loose in your top paddock.
I think you're onto something. Keep looking. Stop posting. You're a disgrace to my state and my country.
Another Mason ("my state, my country?") how about sharing. What do you keep in the apron pockets.?