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The Metaphysical Consciousness

Limbo said:
I don't have "knowledge" of it. I have experience of it. That's why I'm not talking about it. I'm talking around it. As I said in my OP.
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So much for "unperceived" and "unthinkable". You didn't take a bunch of acid, did you?
 
gentlehorse said:
So much for "unperceived" and "unthinkable".
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Words like that are a poetic finger pointing to the moon, not law. Don't get caught up in poetry. That's what fundamentalists do.

You didn't take a bunch of acid, did you?
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No sir I did not.

Besides, entheogens are a sacred meditation device and teacher in the right hands. In the wrong hands they are abused for mere recreation.

Hope your third eye is feeling better now.
 
Limbo said:
Scientists might assume they are letting reality speak for itself, but that assumption is shown to be false. There is no glass wall between scientists and reality. There is no force-field between the intentions, emotional resonances, and attitudes of a scientist and his lab. Experimenter effects make a difference, especially when unconscoius psychic functions are considered.

That's why the publlicity stunt you guys call the MDC is worthless. You guys are just pitting your intentions and attitudes against those of the claimant in an unconscious psychic battle that you guys aren't even remotely aware of.
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Really?? When did this happen? Fire is hot whether you think it is or not.



If we can win the psychic battle and not even be aware of it then you are backing the wrong horse.
 
Limbo said:
Scientists might assume they are letting reality speak for itself, but that assumption is shown to be false.
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When the day comes that you are able to use psychic powers rather than a computer to post to these forums, we may concede that you have a point.

Until that day, though, it is self-apparent that you are talking complete bollocks.
 
I'm trying to think of a higher level of Special Pleading then "I know this thing that you can't know because I have special magical powers that you don't."
 
Limbo said:
Oh sure, we can see the differences between the brains of long-term meditation experts and non-meditators. The differences are astounding. We can see the obvious benefits. But just seeing them won't increase our brain power or make our brains more aware.
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Reading about muscles' training will not in increase your muscles' fitness.

In other words, no daily proper practice, no achievements, in any aspect of our life.

It is fundamental and has nothing to do with belief, mysticism etc.

The difference between scientific approach and mystic approach is that scientific approach systematically improves our understanding about the right ways of proper practice, where mystic approach is no more than hands waving.
 
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doronshadmi said:
Reading about muscles' training will not in increase your muscles' fitness.

In other words, no daily proper practice, no achievements, in any aspect of our life.

It is fundamental and has nothing to do with belief, mysticism etc.

The difference between scientific approach and mystic approach is that scientific approach systematically improves our understanding about the right ways of proper practice, where mystic approach is no more than hands waving.
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It's not a pissing contest.

But I look around here, and I see a bunch of fools. Why isn't the scientific approach prompting JREFers to adopt the right ways of proper practice? Because of religious associations, as Sam Harris said.

It's a weak mind that can't shed the baggage, can't see past and/or use religious poetry, can't see the benefits, can't build their own telescope.

Take JREFers and put them in the right place and time, and they would refuse to look through Galileo's telescope.
 
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JoeBentley said:
I'm trying to think of a higher level of Special Pleading then "I know this thing that you can't know because I have special magical powers that you don't."
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Predictably, JREFers hear something that I didn't say and miss what I do say.

Ship of fools.
 
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tsig said:
Really?? When did this happen? Fire is hot whether you think it is or not.
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Reductio ad absurdum.

If we can win the psychic battle and not even be aware of it then you are backing the wrong horse.
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As I said earlier, there is no conflict between mysticism and science. I back both horses. Sooner or later, when culture catches up a bit, they will become one horse.
 
Limbo said:
Why isn't the scientific approach prompting JREFers to adopt the right ways of proper practice?
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For the past 600 years the dominant paradigm is to exclude the observer as a factor of any scientific research, in order to avoid as much as possible subjective manipulations of the results.

I agree with this paradigm and actually go even further by claiming that the thoughts process (conscious or unconscious) or any, so called, objective phenomena (also called physical phenomena) in our universe is actually no more than ever changing (and therefore) subjective realm that is derived from the unchanged (and therefore) objective realm.

This unchanged (and therefore) objective realm is known only if one enables to transcend beyond the thoughts process (that are naturally always subjective), where Transcendental Meditation technique is exactly such practice, which enables to directly know the objective source of the ever changing (and therefore) subjective realm, which is, by mistake, understood as objective.

Again, the unchanged (and therefore) objective realm is actually known only if the mind transcends the thoughts process, and any attempt to know it at the level of thoughts process is doomed to fail.

Most of the JREFers get things only at the level of the thoughts process exactly because they do not practicing mental techniques like TM.

As a result, this thread is no more than waves upon the surface (more details about TM, which have nothing to do with actually practicing TM, are given in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fO3AnD2QbIg, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjT831cjaUY) or http://www.davidlynchfoundation.org/research.html).
 
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Limbo said:
It's not a pissing contest.

But I look around here, and I see a bunch of fools. Why isn't the scientific approach prompting JREFers to adopt the right ways of proper practice? Because of religious associations, as Sam Harris said.

It's a weak mind that can't shed the baggage, can't see past and/or use religious poetry, can't see the benefits, can't build their own telescope.

Take JREFers and put them in the right place and time, and they would refuse to look through Galileo's telescope.
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Physician, heal thyself.

Why on earth do you always assume everyone here has not tried this themselves? Why do you persist in the Jabba-esque notion that if we simply knew what you were saying, we would agree with you automatically?

I learned zazen meditation in the Soto style almost 30 years ago, and reached what I believed was satori at the time. Later, I came to understand there was nothing mystical about it at all, that certain brain states can be arrived at by different ways, but it was still just my brain and how I perceived things, there was no real "knowledge" of anything more than that. I still use breath control exercises as a way to manage certain stressful situations, like rush hour traffic, but I understand that it is simply a way to change my response to things, not some magical control of my environment.

It isn't the religious associations that lead many of the posters here to fail to "adopt the right ways of practice", several of us have. You simply do not like the fact that we understand that the results of "right ways" aren't anything more than the brain doing what it always does and putting a different filter on experience, not generating a true experience.

Since you dodged my earlier question, what exactly do you know about the major organized religions, and how do you know this, other than what that chart inaccurately describes? Campbell had some interesting ideas, but most of them were severely flawed, or based off of inaccurate translations.
 
Limbo said:
But I look around here, and I see a bunch of fools. Why isn't the scientific approach prompting JREFers to adopt the right ways of proper practice? Because of religious associations, as Sam Harris said..
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Why not lead by example then, O humble Limbo?

Why blaze in and shoot insults when you are so experienced at inner peace?

Why not meet the scientists and the reasoners on their own ground, their own language?

If you are have a worthy system, why not work harder to connect it to our incompatible minds?

I think I know, and I think I know why you would rather troll than enroll.

Limbo said:
Through mental training, we have developed techniques to do things which science cannot yet adequately explain. This, then, is the basis of the supposed ‘magic and mystery’ of Tibetan Buddhism." (Dalai Lama, 2002, pp. 230-243)
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Start here. What are these things?
 
Why blaze in and shoot insults when you are so experienced at inner peace?
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When in Rome...

It's fun trading insults with you guys sometimes. Why would you want to deprive me of that?

Oh, right. The stereotype of "spiritual" people isn't compatible with it.


Start here. What are these things?
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If you want to know, start here.

Through mental training, we have developed techniques to do things which science cannot yet adequately explain. This, then, is the basis of the supposed ‘magic and mystery’ of Tibetan Buddhism." (Dalai Lama, 2002, pp. 230-243)
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Limbo said:
As I said earlier, there is no conflict between mysticism and science. I back both horses. Sooner or later, when culture catches up a bit, they will become one horse.
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It is not going to happen as long as mysticism continues its hands waving style.
 
doronshadmi said:
Zen Buddhism is maybe based on beliefs, which is a good indication of why it is not sufficient actual mental training as TM is.
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Zazen meditation has exactly the same measurable benefits as TM. By the way, most of the health claims made in that video are poorly supported by research, at best. Yes, there are health benefits that can be attained using meditation techniques, I have listed one myself, but those are very limited compared to the claims in the video, and are definitely available through a wide variety of methods, not unique to TM at all.
 
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