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The Metaphysical Consciousness

How do you distinguish something that exists that is unperceived, unrelated, incomprehensible, uninferable, unthinkable and indescribable from something that doesn't exist?
Very simple, no matter what you do and what is your state of mind (higher states of awareness, waking, dreaming, deep dreamless sleep) you can't be aware of something that does not exist, consciously or unconsciously, simply because awareness is based of existence, whether it is abstract or not.

In order to be clearer, you can talk about something that does not exist, but in that case you have a logical contradiction because "does not exist" is actually nothing, so "something that does not exist" is equivalent to ""something that is nothing".
 
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Hi Limbo.

Higher states of consciousness are scientifically treated for the past 30 years by researching Transcendental Meditation

In other words, nothing is mystical about higher states of consciousness.


Hi doronshadmi.

Someone who has never recalled a dream can know that people who claim to experience dreams aren't making it all up when they describe a dream, and by the same token science can show that mystics who claim to experience higher states of being are not making it all up. They are just framing it in esoteric ways we can't easily decode.

There is a set of experiences behind the mystical literature of the world. They aren't making it all up to pick up chicks or scam people out of money or to indulge in wishful thinking. Science shows that much, at least.

Science also shows that these experiences can be framed in the lingo of any culture, even a secular culture. Framing them in scientific terms does not rob higher states of consciousness of their health benefits, just as a statistical analysis of a baseball game does not rob it of the fun and excersise you can have out on the field.

There is no conflict between mysticism and science. People could be practicing it within an atheistic or secular framework, just as Sam Harris does.

"One problem with atheism as a category of thought, is that it seems more or less synonymous with not being interested in what someone like the Buddha or Jesus may have actually experienced. In fact, many atheists reject such experiences out of hand, as either impossible, or if possible, not worth wanting. Another common mistake is to imagine that such experiences are necessarily equivalent to states of mind with which many of us are already familiar—the feeling of scientific awe, or ordinary states of aesthetic appreciation, artistic inspiration, etc.

As someone who has made his own modest efforts in this area, let me assure you, that when a person goes into solitude and trains himself in meditation for 15 or 18 hours a day, for months or years at a time, in silence, doing nothing else—not talking, not reading, not writing—just making a sustained moment to moment effort to merely observe the contents of consciousness and to not get lost in thought, he experiences things that most scientists and artists are not likely to have experienced, unless they have made precisely the same efforts at introspection. And these experiences have a lot to say about the plasticity of the human mind and about the possibilities of human happiness.

So, apart from just commending these phenomena to your attention, I’d like to point out that, as atheists, our neglect of this area of human experience puts us at a rhetorical disadvantage. Because millions of people have had these experiences, and many millions more have had glimmers of them, and we, as atheists, ignore such phenomena, almost in principle, because of their religious associations—and yet these experiences often constitute the most important and transformative moments in a person’s life. Not recognizing that such experiences are possible or important can make us appear less wise even than our craziest religious opponents." -Sam Harris

A sports fan can use many tools to analyze a game. But none of them will tell him what it is like to hit a grand slam homerun that wins the game.

A scientist can use tools to learn about higher states of consciousness, but that won't tell him what it is like to go past the usual states of consciousness we are all familiar with.

Oh sure, we can see the differences between the brains of long-term meditation experts and non-meditators. The differences are astounding. We can see the obvious benefits. But just seeing them won't increase our brain power or make our brains more aware.
 
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How do you distinguish something that exists that is unperceived, unrelated, incomprehensible, uninferable, unthinkable and indescribable from something that doesn't exist?

Easy. One of these is transcendent as the ultimate representation of that most profound concept within all of mathematical thought, the empty set!

The other is nonsense.
 
"I’d like to point out that, as atheists, our neglect of this area of human experience puts us at a rhetorical disadvantage. Because millions of people have had these experiences, and many millions more have had glimmers of them, and we, as atheists, ignore such phenomena, almost in principle, because of their religious associations—and yet these experiences often constitute the most important and transformative moments in a person’s life. Not recognizing that such experiences are possible or important can make us appear less wise even than our craziest religious opponents." -Sam Harris
Wow; I don't know what makes Harris think he can speak for atheists... some unrecognizable experience no doubt.

...we can see the differences between the brains of long-term meditation experts and non-meditators. The differences are astounding. We can see the obvious benefits.
Astounding? what astounding differences can be seen?
 
dlorde,

How you can train your mind to do the impossible

"I am well aware, however, of the danger of tying spiritual belief to any scientific system. . . . This is not to say that I consider things like the oracle and the ability of monks to survive nights spent out in freezing condition to be evidence of magical powers.

Yet I cannot agree with our Chinese Brothers and sisters, who hold that Tibetan acceptance of these phenomena is evidence of our backwardness and barbarity. Even from the most rigorous scientific viewpoint, this is not an objective attitude. At the same time, even if a principle is accepted, it does not mean that everything connected with it is valid. . . . . Great vigilance must be maintained at all times when dealing in areas about which we do not have great understanding.

This, of course, is where science can help. After all, we consider things to be mysterious only when we do not understand them. . . . . Through mental training, we have developed techniques to do things which science cannot yet adequately explain. This, then, is the basis of the supposed ‘magic and mystery’ of Tibetan Buddhism." (Dalai Lama, 2002, pp. 230-243)

Science is just beginning to realize what mystics have known for a very long time. By the time science has finished realizing, it will have shed materialism like a snake shedding its skin.

That doesn't mean we will have to toss out the science textbooks and open our Bible instead.
 
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dlorde,

How you can train your mind to do the impossible

"I am well aware, however, of the danger of tying spiritual belief to any scientific system. . . . This is not to say that I consider things like the oracle and the ability of monks to survive nights spent out in freezing condition to be evidence of magical powers.

Yet I cannot agree with our Chinese Brothers and sisters, who hold that Tibetan acceptance of these phenomena is evidence of our backwardness and barbarity. Even from the most rigorous scientific viewpoint, this is not an objective attitude. At the same time, even if a principle is accepted, it does not mean that everything connected with it is valid. . . . . Great vigilance must be maintained at all times when dealing in areas about which we do not have great understanding.

This, of course, is where science can help. After all, we consider things to be mysterious only when we do not understand them. . . . . Through mental training, we have developed techniques to do things which science cannot yet adequately explain. This, then, is the basis of the supposed ‘magic and mystery’ of Tibetan Buddhism." (Dalai Lama, 2002, pp. 230-243)

Science is just beginning to realize what mystics have known for a very long time. By the time science has finished realizing, it will have shed materialism like a snake shedding its skin.

That doesn't mean we will have to toss out the science textbooks and open our Bible instead.

Then what does it mean? Separate science from materialism and you have witchcraft.
 
Then what does it mean? Separate science from materialism and you have witchcraft.


No, it means switching from one kind of monism to another. Science will go from material monism, which paved the way for science, to neutral monism or mental monism. The reach of science will be entended.

Change the Rules!

Abstract

'Although consciousness-correlated physical phenomena are widely and credibly documented, their appearance and behavior display substantial departures from conventional scientific criteria. Under even the most rigorous protocols, they are only irregularly replicable, and they appear to be insensitive to most basic physical coordinates, including distance and time. Rather, their strongest correlations are with various subjective parameters, such as intention, emotional resonance, uncertainty, attitude, and meaning, and information processing at an unconscious level appears to be involved.

If science, by its most basic definition, is to pursue understanding and utilization of these extraordinary processes, it will need to expand its current paradigm to acknowledge and codify a proactive role for the mind in the establishment of physical events, and to accommodate the spectrum of empirically indicated subjective correlates.

The challenges of quantitative measurement and theoretical conceptualization within such a "Science of the Subjective" are formidable, but its potential intellectual and cultural benefits could be immense, not least of all in improving the reach, the utility, the attitude, and the image of science itself.'
 
There isn't much that needs to be said about the three main 'ususal' states. We all know them. They are normal and easy to talk about, because we all have them all the time. Language can handle them easy.

Well since language can handle them so god damn easily why don't you go ahead and define consciousness in a completely uncontroversial way that everyone can agree with?

After all it's so easy to talk about, right? :rolleyes:
 
Well since language can handle them so god damn easily why don't you go ahead and define consciousness in a completely uncontroversial way that everyone can agree with?

After all it's so easy to talk about, right? :rolleyes:


It's probably safe to assume you wrote your post in the waking state of consciousness. If so, you're familiar with it. You're awake, aren't you Mr Angry?

It's also safe to assume you are familar with the state of dreaming, and with the state of deep dreamless sleep. You do sleep, don't you?

It's probably also safe to assume that any other states of consciousness you've experienced have been variations of or transitions to one of these states.

But some of us have experienced states of consciousness that are so radically different from those, that we can't point to them to elucidate it.
 
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No, it means switching from one kind of monism to another. Science will go from material monism, which paved the way for science, to neutral monism or mental monism. The reach of science will be entended.

Change the Rules!

Abstract

'Although consciousness-correlated physical phenomena are widely and credibly documented, their appearance and behavior display substantial departures from conventional scientific criteria. Under even the most rigorous protocols, they are only irregularly replicable, and they appear to be insensitive to most basic physical coordinates, including distance and time. Rather, their strongest correlations are with various subjective parameters, such as intention, emotional resonance, uncertainty, attitude, and meaning, and information processing at an unconscious level appears to be involved.

If science, by its most basic definition, is to pursue understanding and utilization of these extraordinary processes, it will need to expand its current paradigm to acknowledge and codify a proactive role for the mind in the establishment of physical events, and to accommodate the spectrum of empirically indicated subjective correlates.

The challenges of quantitative measurement and theoretical conceptualization within such a "Science of the Subjective" are formidable, but its potential intellectual and cultural benefits could be immense, not least of all in improving the reach, the utility, the attitude, and the image of science itself.'

So science has to cease to be science to understand psychic events.

The scientific method is a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge.[1] To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.[2] The Oxford English Dictionary defines the scientific method as "a method or procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses."[3]

The chief characteristic which distinguishes the scientific method from other methods of acquiring knowledge is that scientists seek to let reality speak for itself, supporting a theory when a theory's predictions are confirmed and challenging a theory when its predictions prove false.

 
So science has to cease to be science to understand psychic events.

The scientific method is a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge.[1] To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.[2] The Oxford English Dictionary defines the scientific method as "a method or procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses."[3]

The chief characteristic which distinguishes the scientific method from other methods of acquiring knowledge is that scientists seek to let reality speak for itself, supporting a theory when a theory's predictions are confirmed and challenging a theory when its predictions prove false.



Scientists might assume they are letting reality speak for itself, but that assumption is shown to be false. There is no glass wall between scientists and reality. There is no force-field between the intentions, emotional resonances, and attitudes of a scientist and his lab. Experimenter effects make a difference, especially when unconscoius psychic functions are considered.

That's why the publlicity stunt you guys call the MDC is worthless. You guys are just pitting your intentions and attitudes against those of the claimant in an unconscious psychic battle that you guys aren't even remotely aware of.
 
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Okay, come on, now. If it's unperceived, unrelated, incomprehensible, uninferable, unthinkable and indescribable, then how can you have any knowledge of it?

My third-eye is getting a cramp over here.
 
Scientists might assume they are letting reality speak for itself, but that assumption is shown to be false. There is no glass wall between scientists and reality. There is no force-field between the intentions, emotional resonances, and attitudes of a scientist and his lab. Experimenter effects make a difference, especially when unconscoius psychic functions are considered.

That's why the publlicity stunt you guys call the MDC is worthless. You guys are just pitting your intentions and attitudes against those of the claimant in an unconscious psychic battle that you guys aren't even remotely aware of.

You're just bitter and twisted because my invisible pink unicorns are more powerful than yours.
 
It's been my experience that metaphysical/mystical claims usually boil down to secret knowledge and secret powers that are, conveniently enough, indemonstrable.
 
It's been my experience that metaphysical/mystical claims usually boil down to secret knowledge and secret powers that are, conveniently enough, indemonstrable.


They are only secret insofar as people don't realize they have them. They are there, operating under the threshold of conscious awareness of everyone.

That means science is too clumsy and limited to handle "secret powers", because science is based, in part, on the assumption that a scientist can't unconsciously use his unconscious "secret powers" to interfere with a demonstration or experiment. But he can and does, and science is none the wiser.
 
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Okay, come on, now. If it's unperceived, unrelated, incomprehensible, uninferable, unthinkable and indescribable, then how can you have any knowledge of it?

My third-eye is getting a cramp over here.


I don't have "knowledge" of it. I have experience of it. That's why I'm not talking about it. I'm talking around it. As I said in my OP.
 

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