The mere belief in Hell makes you a more evil person.

[Robin]

How should this be compared to an atheist's support for a life sentence without parole in our justice system? To most atheists there's no afterlife, or no evidence of one, and we tend to think our life on Earth is all there is. So, in sentencing another person to life in prison without parole, we're sentencing them to punishment for the rest of their existence. Wouldn't that be about as sadistic and evil? Or is hell worse because hell suffering is worse than prison suffering?

The reasons a Christian might believe someone deserves to go to Hell is if they go against God or sin. The reason an atheist might believe someone deserves to spend the rest of their life in prison is if they murder a bunch of others, or some equally terrible thing done to others.

So, is an irrational reason to send someone to eternal suffering evil and sociopathic, but a rational reason to send someone to eternal suffering (from their perspective), good or socially responsible? Is it the result or the reasoning that's evil?

If I'm not making sense, replace every "hell" with "life in prison without parole" in the above. Of course some atheists may think everyone deserves the possibility of parole no matter their crimes, so the analogy wouldn't fit for them.

Do you really think that is a reasonable comparison?

For a start life in prison is not "eternal" from anybody's perspective.

Secondly, if we believe someone should be imprisoned for life it is because they cause suffering or death and we want to prevent them from continuing to do this.

Thirdly, if God exists he is infinitely intelligent and powerful and everything is set up the way it is according to his plan.

I cannot see how this can be a valid comparison with our response to the situation we find ourselves in. We are simply doing the best we can in the circumstances. If there was a better response we would use it.

Fourthly, we like to think we have ensured that lifers are as well treated as possible under the circumstances.

And finally, going against God does not seem to be such a terrible crime that would deserve any kind of punishment, never mind eternal torment. Nor does being an atheist or having chosen to follow some other religion.

Now if you compared it to a Dictator who imprisons a political dissenter for life and ensures he is regularly tortured, that would be a close comparison.

 

[JoeEllison]

1) Gehenna - The valley of Hinnom outside of Jeruselem where garbage and the dead were burned. A place of destruction.

2) Hades - associated with the Greek Orcus, a dark and dismal place in the earth, the abode of the wicked

3) Tartaroo (single occurrence, 2 Peter 2:4) - deepest abyss of Hades, possible place of torment for fallen angels

4) Tatooine (Star Wars Episodes IV-V) - "Verily, it is better for the Son to sacrifice his hand to the Father, than to spend a lifetime repairing moisture vaporators and loitering around Tosche station in Anchorhead when not doing chores for Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru."

 

[articulett]

I like to read Christian hatemail regarding hell.

It makes them sound so... "christian".

http://www.normalbobsmith.com/hatemail369.html

You'd think they'd get rid of hell via their tried and true method.

http://www.normalbobsmith.com/publicity&promotion/banners_fliers_prayforsatan.html

 

[Robin]

I am no expert on the topic, but my layman's understanding is that the "modern" connotation of hell is mostly due to medieval depictions. The original Greek words that are variously translated as hell are either:

1) Gehenna - The valley of Hinnom outside of Jeruselem where garbage and the dead were burned. A place of destruction.

2) Hades - associated with the Greek Orcus, a dark and dismal place in the earth, the abode of the wicked

3) Tartaroo (single occurrence, 2 Peter 2:4) - deepest abyss of Hades, possible place of torment for fallen angels

It is not clear that the original understanding of those words meant a place of eternal torment for sinners as the modern depiction has it. For example, the most obvious connotation of "everlasting fire" or "fire that will never be quenched" is simply a fire that burns forever, not torment that lasts forever. It's also my understanding the the Jewish view of the afterlife does not contain a place of eternal torment, and that this is a Christian invention, which is ironic considering the kinder, gentler Yahweh of the NT.

Perhaps someone else with more knowledge can weigh in on this subject.

See my quote from Revelations above which indicates that the idea of Hell as a place of eternal torment for God's enemies is biblical rather than modern. Also Jesus said:

And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

Matthew 25:46

 

[articulett]

Now if you compared it to a Dictator who imprisons a political dissenter for life and ensures he is regularly tortured, that would be a close comparison.

No it wouldn't. You don't get close to "eternity" no matter how long a life you have. Infinite punishment for a finite crime that had something to do with the brain you had seems insane no matter how you slice it.

 

[PBTree]

Well. I'm mostly agnostic. Actually, I'm mostly atheist, but I can't get away from a nagging guilty feeling.

That said, I sort of believe in Hell, and I'm pretty sure that if it exists, there's a good chance I'm going there, no matter what I do in this world.

Does that make me a more evil person? Why?

After all, if the Lord exists, he's the only one who makes the final decision on where you go. Me... I'm no worse than the mass of mankind, but I'm no better. I know my failings as well as anyone. No great sins, but a few petty ones.
And I like cheeseburgers a lot.

Sorry, you are neither an agnostic nor an atheist. You are a believer and going to hell for your fibbing. To many theist remarks methinks.

Even addressing the father of the son of the father of the son as the Lord, tips you over the edge.

 

[Cello Man]

Why life in prison can make sense

How should this be compared to an atheist's support for a life sentence without parole in our justice system? To most atheists there's no afterlife, or no evidence of one, and we tend to think our life on Earth is all there is. So, in sentencing another person to life in prison without parole, we're sentencing them to punishment for the rest of their existence. Wouldn't that be about as sadistic and evil? Or is hell worse because hell suffering is worse than prison suffering?

Don't forget that punishment is only one component of the justice system. It also protects potential victims from people that otherwise could harm them.

Let me give you great example of why life in prison is a good idea for some offenses. Keep in mind, this is a true story. I wish it wasn't.

My best friend's father has been married two times. The first wife was my friend's mother, and the second wife (who became his step-mom) married his father and brought her daughter from a previous marriage. After the second wife slowly died of cancer over a period of two years, he adopted his teenage step daughter from that marriage, taking her on as if she were his own daughter.

Then one night while visiting, my best friend unwittingly walked in on his father watching a video one night. The footage was blurry, but it was obvious what was happening on screen, and the voices were distinct. In that video my friend recognized the voices of his father and his then 13 year old step sister. His father quickly shut the video and pretended nothing was wrong, and my friend sat in that room in complete shock until his father went to bed for the night. It was about an hour or so they were both in the room, and probably for the first time in his life, my friend had to pretend to play a video game as if everything was normal.

After a sleepless night that I can't even imagine, my friend loaded up all of his fathers multiple computer systems and drove them to the local police station and told them what he had seen and heard. The computers were encrypted so heavily that it took federal investigators several weeks to acquire the evidence they needed.

He was convicted and sentenced to 40 years in prison with no possible chance of parole. The guy is already pushing 60, so it is in effect a life sentence. The man will undoubtedly die in prison.

I don't support the death penalty (I did at one time until I thought the matter through), but I am perfectly fine with this. The guy raped and videotaped his teenage step daughter, an innocent entrusted to his care by his wife on her deathbed. It went on for almost a year before my friend found this out, and it all started mere weeks after her mother's death. As if her mother dying of cancer isn't horrible enough, her step dad suddenly changes her role from adopted daughter to live-in sex slave. This whole scenario greatly contributed to my lack of belief in a just and loving god.

He definitely deserves to be separated from the rest of society for the rest of his days. Not just for the sake of punishment, but to keep it from happening again. I hold out no hope that someone so warped and sadistic could benefit from therapy or rehabilitation of any sort. He simply needs to go away, and I'm glad he'll never breathe free air again.

 

[Robin]

No it wouldn't. You don't get close to "eternity" no matter how long a life you have. Infinite punishment for a finite crime that had something to do with the brain you had seems insane no matter how you slice it.

Mistype, I meant "closer comparison".

 

[Walter Wayne]

The mere belief in Hell makes you a more evil person. I say this because even if you don't actually hate someone, subconsciously this belief requires a sociopathic indifference towards the suffering of others, while you believe you'll enjoy all the pleasures of Heaven with nothing but the clearest conscience.

I've seen the look on a mother's face when she found out her son was an atheist, and the look on kids face as they worried about their uncle going to hell. Neither looked indifferent.

 

[Dragoonster]

Do you really think that is a reasonable comparison?

For a start life in prison is not "eternal" from anybody's perspective.

Secondly, if we believe someone should be imprisoned for life it is because they cause suffering or death and we want to prevent them from continuing to do this.

Thirdly, if God exists he is infinitely intelligent and powerful and everything is set up the way it is according to his plan.

I cannot see how this can be a valid comparison with our response to the situation we find ourselves in. We are simply doing the best we can in the circumstances. If there was a better response we would use it.

You're right, it's not eternal, but it is the rest of the criminal's existence.

Our punishing people for the rest of their existence serves a purpose because our system of punishment is the best we can do? I don't see any fundamental difference, unless you start with the assumption or proof that God's laws are irrational vs. man's rational laws. God is an ass for even allowing Hell and evil, but that's another argument imo.

God is irrational and almost certainly doesn't exist, but as in your third point, if he does exist he does have a plan and Hell does serve a (or his) purpose. The argument seems a bit tautological. "Hell is an evil belief because God doesn't exist therefore there's no justification for eternal punishment"

Fourthly, we like to think we have ensured that lifers are as well treated as possible under the circumstances.

And finally, going against God does not seem to be such a terrible crime that would deserve any kind of punishment, never mind eternal torment. Nor does being an atheist or having chosen to follow some other religion.

Now if you compared it to a Dictator who imprisons a political dissenter for life and ensures he is regularly tortured, that would be a close comparison.

What I was responding to was a bit narrower, it was "The reason is: If punishment is eternal, then it cannot serve a purpose."

Punishing criminals in real life serves a purpose, even if they have to spend their entire existence being punished, even if they can't escape punishment if they happen to give up their evil and become good. Their past crime, if the sentence is without parole, will have ensured punishment until their non-existence, no matter what they do. So...the contention seems to fall back to "God's purpose behind punishment is wrong and indefensible", versus "human's purpose behind punishment is right, or defendable".

I'm not paying attention to any of the theist arguments who claim God does have a good reason, or that those in Hell can in fact escape Hell. That seems equally besides the point. The OP's reasoning seemed to indicate that punishment without possibility of escape from punishment was de facto evil, which would mean our criminal system is evil.

 

[Cello Man]

The OP's reasoning seemed to indicate that punishment without possibility of escape from punishment was de facto evil, which would mean our criminal system is evil.

See my lengthy post above. Punishment is one thing, but the point of life in prison can also be to protect society from those being locked away. Conversely, I don't see how Hell serves as a protectionary measure, short of scaring simple minded people into behaving if they're not smart enough to base their moral compass on sound reason and empathy.

 

[articulett]

Cello Man, your friend is a hero. It must have been horribly hard for him to turn his dad in. But it would have been worse not to.

And to me, THAT is exactly what prison is for. To protect others from people like that. Nothing will fix that man. No amount of punishment will change whatever it was that made him into a person who would/could do that. And it wasn't religion which made your friend turn his dad in.

If pedophiliac clergy (or Ted Haggard or Jimmy Swaggerty) are an indication, threats of hell don't seem to curb sexual impulses.

(dragoonster is a buffoonster)

 

[Dragoonster]

Don't forget that punishment is only one component of the justice system. It also protects potential victims from people that otherwise could harm them.

Let me give you great example of why life in prison is a good idea for some offenses. Keep in mind, this is a true story. I wish it wasn't.

(...)

He definitely deserves to be separated from the rest of society for the rest of his days. Not just for the sake of punishment, but to keep it from happening again. I hold out no hope that someone so warped and sadistic could benefit from therapy or rehabilitation of any sort. He simply needs to go away, and I'm glad he'll never breathe free air again.

Absolutely. Very sorry for your friend, I can't imagine that situation. Terrific that he stopped it almost as soon as he was aware though.

My post was trying to approach from a different perspective (because reading all the scripture gives me a headache), and I'm a contrarian so not sure how objective or reasonable my arguments are. I'm not suggesting humans shouldn't punish others for the rest of their lives. I actually do support the death penalty, though my reasons are primative and not very logical.

 

[Robin]

You're right, it's not eternal, but it is the rest of the criminal's existence.

The rest of the criminal's non-eternal existence.

Our punishing people for the rest of their existence serves a purpose because our system of punishment is the best we can do?

I didn't say that. It serves a purpose, obviously, protecting the community from violence.

It is the best we can do - again obviously, unless you can suggest something better.

But I don't recall slipping that "because" in there anywhere.

I don't see any fundamental difference, unless you start with the assumption or proof that God's laws are irrational vs. man's rational laws. God is an ass for even allowing Hell and evil, but that's another argument imo.

God is irrational and almost certainly doesn't exist, but as in your third point, if he does exist he does have a plan and Hell does serve a (or his) purpose. The argument seems a bit tautological. "Hell is an evil belief because God doesn't exist therefore there's no justification for eternal punishment"

That argument my be tautological, but I don't recall making it.

My point is that it is simply silly to compare how a finite creature with limited options responds to a situation in which it has found itself to an infinte being who created the situation in the first place.

What I was responding to was a bit narrower, it was "The reason is: If punishment is eternal, then it cannot serve a purpose."

Punishing criminals in real life serves a purpose, even if they have to spend their entire existence being punished, even if they can't escape punishment if they happen to give up their evil and become good. Their past crime, if the sentence is without parole, will have ensured punishment until their non-existence, no matter what they do. So...the contention seems to fall back to "God's purpose behind punishment is wrong and indefensible", versus "human's purpose behind punishment is right, or defendable".

Again, the purpose of punishing criminals is to protect the community or to deter future criminals. Eternal punishment can surely have no such purpose

The OP's reasoning seemed to indicate that punishment without possibility of escape from punishment was de facto evil, which would mean our criminal system is evil.

Well you said you were focussing on the "it cannot serve a purpose" but now you appear to have lost that focus. Let's keep that focus. What purpose could eternal punishment serve?

 

[Dragoonster]

Sorry if I strawmanned you.

Well you said you were focussing on the "it cannot serve a purpose" but now you appear to have lost that focus. Let's keep that focus. What purpose could eternal punishment serve?

1. It's proper punishment for the crime/sin commited.

2. It's a deterrent in that the severity lets the rest of us know how serious God takes sinning. It's purpose would be in giving us a personal motivation not to sin.

Again, the purpose of punishing criminals is to protect the community or to deter future criminals. Eternal punishment can surely have no such purpose

Sure it can, if the community believes it and God are real.

 

[Robin]

I've seen the look on a mother's face when she found out her son was an atheist, and the look on kids face as they worried about their uncle going to hell. Neither looked indifferent.

That is a good point.

However you have got to wonder why the look on their faces was worry that a family member was going to hell and not a worry that their beliefs didn't make sense.

 

[Robin]

Sorry if I strawmanned you.

I am sorry if I suggested you straw manned me. I should never assume that my points are so clear that they are always understood.

1. It's proper punishment for the crime/sin commited.

What crime merits eternal torment?

2. It's a deterrent in that the severity lets the rest of us know how serious God takes sinning. It's purpose would be in giving us a personal motivation not to sin.

So if I am a sadistic serial killer by preference, but I refrain from sadistic serial killing due to fear of eternal pain, would that make me a good person, worthy of eternal reward?

 

[Cello Man]

Cello Man, your friend is a hero. It must have been horribly hard for him to turn his dad in. But it would have been worse not to.

And I said the exact same thing to him. I told him he was indeed a hero for what he did. But he rejects that label. According to him, once the full realization of the situation set in, he became, in his own words, a force of nature. Choice didn't enter into it at that point.

I guess I would call heroism the ability to choose the right action in the face of unstoppable odds, or choosing the moral option over what would be (on a purely practical level) the easy option that requires no action.

He doesn't feel like a hero simply because he felt like he had no choice at all in that situation. We can split hairs about free will or conscious decision all day long, but ultimately I have not experienced what he has experienced. So I will not tell him whether he had a choice, or what he did or didn't feel.

Either way, I'm proud of him and I'm glad he's my friend.

(dragoonster is a buffoonster)

Hey, let's keep it civil.

Absolutely. Very sorry for your friend, I can't imagine that situation. Terrific that he stopped it almost as soon as he was aware though.

His only regret was that he didn't stop it sooner, or magically find some way to prevent it from happening in the first place. That latter is impossible of course. And unless you had some ironclad reason to suspect your own father of doing something that heinous, would you really know what incriminating signs to look for, even if you could stomach the thought of it even for an instant?

Such is life.

 

[articulett]

I apologize for being uncivil.

 

[e-sabbath]

Even addressing the father of the son of the father of the son as the Lord, tips you over the edge.

It's a proper name. How else would you refer to the being? And I'm _certainly_ not Christian. However, referring to a certain being as the Lord is one of those nagging guilty rituals. On the other hand, my mother cooked pork chops for Passover. Oy.