The Jan. 6 Investigation

[newyorkguy]

In Arizona alternate electors were selected before the election? That doesn't seem to be true. From news site AZCentral, a report published in December 2020:

An Arizona group sent the National Archives in Washington, D.C., notarized documents last week intended to deliver, wrongly, the state's 11 electoral votes for [trump]. Copies of the documents obtained by The Arizona Republic show a group that claimed to represent the "sovereign citizens of the Great State of Arizona" submitted signed papers casting votes for what they want: a second term for Trump and Vice President Mike Pence.

While [Mesa resident Lori] Osiecki's elector documents do not appear to have been taken as genuine, they are part of a weekslong effort, led by Trump, his advisers, and involving Arizona Republican Party officials and three members of Arizona's GOP congressional delegation casting doubt on the legitimacy of Biden's victory in Arizona and nationally. link to AZCentral

Meanwhile (also December 2020):

The 11 electors actually chosen by Arizona voters last month — meeting in an unpublicized location because of security concerns over their task — cast their votes Monday for President-elect Joe Biden and Vice President-elect Kamala Harris, formalizing the Democrats' victory nationally and in the state.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

The “fake” certificates were obtained from the Archivist. Those documents indicate that copies were sent to the President of the Senate (and Governor, Secretary of State, and District judge, as would normally be the case).

After a State determines its electors, the Governor (executive of the State) sends a Certificate of Ascertainment to the Archivist stating the names of the electors. The Archivist sends copies to both Houses of Congress.

The Governor gives 6 copies of the Certificates of Ascertainment to the electors. After they meet, they make 6 copies of Certificates of Vote and attach the 6 copies of Certificates of Ascertainment. They send 1 to the President of the Senate, 2 to the State’s secretary of state, 2 to the Archivist, and 1 to the Federal district judge.

The certificates received by the Archivist are opened and reviewed to make sure they are complete and proper. Those become publicly available. Both Houses of Congress may request copies of the certificates. The Certificates of Vote received by the President of the Senate remain under seal until they are counted at the joint session of Congress.

They don’t actually count the votes during the counting of the votes. That is all done beforehand. This is just a procedure that is mostly for show. It is literally scripted by the Parliamentarian. The tellers and the Vice President are just reading things they are handed by the Parliamentarian (with the Vice President sometimes being feed his lines). The Parliamentarian and her staff also handle the actual opening and handing the certificates to the Vice President to hand t the tellers.

Normally the Vice President will say something like, “The Chair hands to the tellers the certificate of the electors for President and Vice President of the State of Alaska, and they will read the certificate and will count and make a list of the votes cast by that State.” In 2016, Biden wanted to get it over so he didn’t make any remarks and just handed the tellers the certificates.

Pence obviously knew about the fake votes. It was in the news. He would have had copies from the Archivist. He obviously worked with the Parliamentarian to get around these. Before each certificate he would say, “This certificate from Alaska, the Parliamentarian has advised me, is the only certificate of vote from that State that purports to be a return from the State and that has annexed to it a certificate from an authority of the State purporting to appoint and ascertain electors.” After the tellers read the votes, he would say, “Are there any objections to counting the certificate of vote of the State of Alaska that the teller has verified appears to be regular in form and authentic?”

That puts conditions on the real certificates that the fake ones would not meet. The fake ones don’t meet those legal criteria, so they don’t need to be addressed during the counting. They put it on the Parliamentarian to determine that only one certificate meeting the legal criteria was received so that Pence, as Chair, does not have to bring them up at all.

They may have had those fakes on the floor so that they could technically open all purported certificates during the counting and then the Parliamentarian simply sets the fake ones aside. Or they may have sorted them out beforehand knowing that they are just meaningless junk. If they sorted them out, they were probably either in the Capitol somewhere so they could be easily procured if they were raised as an issue or maybe stored at the Eisenhower Executive Office Building.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

In Arizona alternate electors were selected before the election? That doesn't seem to be true. From news site AZCentral, a report published in December 2021:

Meanwhile (also last December):

Not December 2021, December 2020.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

Here is what I think Trump, Giuliani, Meadows, Navarro, Bannen and all the other people involved in this coup attempt were trying to do. I don't think the sequence is 100% exact, and there will be a lot more detail, but IMO, its not far off.

• Submit the forged documents from the slate of fake electors in Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, New Mexico, Nevada, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin to the National Archives (this will come into play later)

• Send the Jan 6 insurrectionists to the Capitol.

• Among that large group were certain participants who had a specific target in mind... not Pence or Pelosi, but the Senate Parliamentarian's Office, where the Electoral College ballot documents are kept. They ransacked that office looking for them, not realizing that the cases of ballots had already been taken to the Chamber.

• "Disappear" all those ballot documents.

• Copies of the missing ballots would then be retrieved from the National Archives, including the fake ones purporting to be the real ones from Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, New Mexico, Nevada, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

• This would switch 84 EC votes from Biden to Trump making Trump the president by 316-222

Three things happened that undid their plan.

1. Some of the forged EC documents were spotted ahead of the count (some as early as December 6)

2. Pence either knew of, or was told, what was going on and wouldn't play ball. This is why all those extra words and phrases were spoken by him as he opened each envelope to make it clear that the EC Votes he was counting were genuine (a message to the plotters that their plan had failed?)

3. The cases of Ballots had already left the Parliamentarians office before the ransackers got there.

Worth noting: I'm told the second-floor office of the Senate Parliamentarian's is not very easy to find, yet those ransackers knew exactly where it was and went straight there. Now, all those unauthorized Capitol tours hosted by people like Taylor-Greene and Boebert in the days before the insurrection make perfect sense don't they.

I don't think so. My guess would be that the Seargent at Arms is responsible for holding the certificates before the Senate session begins. That is supported by the Seargent at Arms leading the procession from the Senate Chamber to the House Chamber followed by the aides carrying the certificates.

The Parliamentarian and her staff interact with the certificates a lot during the counting because that is the type of things the Parliamentarian does while directing the show. I don't think that means the certificates are stored in her office. That is a possibility, but probably not.

The ransacking of the Parliamentarian office hit the news only in conjunction with the story about the senior assistant parliamentarian and her staff rescuing the certificates during the evacuation. I don't know if that office was targeted in particular or if it was just one of many.

If that was their plan, they were too late by a lot. They were about an hour into the counting already and the boxes of certificates were in the Senate chamber at least 30 minutes before that.

I also don't get the plan. No reason to not send the fakes to the President of the Senate. If the idea is to catch them off guard, better to send them just to the President of the Senate and not the Archivist. The ones to the President of the Senate remain sealed. The ones to the Archivist get opened right away and are available to the Senate.

I don't think with those certificates there was not any conspiracy or intent to deceive. Two of them had a caveat that they were submitted by "elector-in-waiting". I think the purpose was make sure the electors met on the prescribed day and sent in the votes as required in anticipation of the States eventually overturning the election results. That way they already have it done. If a State flips at the 11th hour, there may not be time to assemble the electors and get everything in on time.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

In Arizona alternate electors were selected before the election? That doesn't seem to be true. From news site AZCentral, a report published in December 2020:


Meanwhile (also December 2020):

None of the text or the names mentioned in that article match the text or names on the Arizona certificate from the FOIA request. That request was for all purported certificates of electoral votes. It looks like the SovCits didn't send in their fake one. The article says they were including some sort of fake certificate of ascertain, which would very likely be illegal unlike the FOIA ones that probably are not. I'm guessing someone told them the real Trump electors were going to be sending in their certificate of votes and this SovCit version would muck everything up.

 

[smartcooky]

I don't think so. My guess would be that the Seargent at Arms is responsible for holding the certificates before the Senate session begins.

It is supported by the Seargent at Arms leading the procession from the Senate Chamber to the House Chamber followed by the aides carrying the certificates.

The Parliamentarian and her staff interact with the certificates a lot during the counting because that is the type of things the Parliamentarian does while directing the show. I don't think that means the certificates are stored in her office. That is a possibility, but probably not.

Your guess is only half right... the actual mahogany boxes full of ballots are stored in the second-floor Office of the Senate Parliamentarian

The ransacking of the Parliamentarian office hit the news only in conjunction with the story about the senior assistant parliamentarian and her staff rescuing the certificates during the evacuation. I don't know if that office was targeted in particular or if it was just one of many.

... and?

If that was their plan, they were too late by a lot. They were about an hour into the counting already and the boxes of certificates were in the Senate chamber at least 30 minutes before that.

So far, I don't think anyone has accused this bunch of morons of competency, and I'm not about to start

I also don't get the plan. No reason to not send the fakes to the President of the Senate. If the idea is to catch them off guard, better to send them just to the President of the Senate and not the Archivist. The ones to the President of the Senate remain sealed. The ones to the Archivist get opened right away and are available to the Senate.

Again, no-one has accused these idiots of competency.

I don't think with those certificates there was not any conspiracy or intent to deceive.

"Honestly Officer Smith. I know it looks bad that I've got $300 in counterfeit banknotes in my wallet, but I wasn't going spend of them, really!"

 

[The Great Zaganza]

In Arizona I believe the "Alternate Electors" WERE selected before the election, by the Republican party - they were pledged to Trump. If Trump had won, they would have been the electors. Going from memory though.

That's not how the process works.

 

[bruto]

And they wouldn't hesitate to kill you, me or anyone else on these forums if we stood in their way, and they could get away with it, that's what I have known for years and what January 6th finally showed the Nation, they aren't afraid to hang a Vice President, or attack Capitol police on our Most Hallowed grounds, then they are not afraid to attack or harm any of us or our Families if it Furthers their goals.
That's the truth of living In this country at this time.

I really wish I could just say that's crazy. Alas, all I can do is say I hope it's overstated.

 

[acbytesla]

In Arizona I believe the "Alternate Electors" WERE selected before the election, by the Republican party - they were pledged to Trump. If Trump had won, they would have been the electors. Going from memory though.

That's not how the process works.

My understanding is that is exactly how it works. Although I wouldn't refer to them as "alternate electors." Before the election there is a slate of "candidate electors." After the votes are tapbulated that slate of candidates are elected as actual electors. They are theoretically bound to vote for their party's nominee. But they don't always. Those are faithless electors.

I know someone who was a candidate elector, but since Reagan won the election, he was not an elector. But I grant you that isn't in Arizona.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

Your guess is only half right... the actual mahogany boxes full of ballots are stored in the second-floor Office of the Senate Parliamentarian

Do you have something that says the boxes are stored in the Senate Parliamentarian's Office? And that the Office is on the second floor (I thought it was S-132, 133)?

 

[smartcooky]

Do you have something that says the boxes are stored in the Senate Parliamentarian's Office?

I'll get back to you about this; I'm still looking for the website where I first saw this information

And that the Office is on the second floor (I thought it was S-132, 133)?

https://time.com/5927664/capital-siege-trump-supporters/

"There was no doubt that the dark red smear left on the first-floor bust of Zachary Taylor was blood. Nor was there doubt that rioters had ransacked the second-floor office of the Senate Parliamentarian, covering the blue carpeting by the fireplace with papers."​

AIUI, there are two Parliamentarian's Offices, this one (S-132) on the ground floor is the one you are talking about
https://c7.alamy.com/comp/2EJR9AE/t...tion-process-graeme-sloansipa-usa-2EJR9AE.jpg

... and this one (H-211) on the second floor at the top of the stairwell outside the south-east corner of the House Chamber

https://static.politico.com/08/22/348e39cc4c978b385c763af6dc0f/cw-0927-waldman-politics-700-02.jpg

NOTE: I may have incorrectly stated earlier that the ransacked office was that of the Senate Parliamentarian (Elizabeth Donough) but it was the office of the House Parliamentarian (Jason Smith) that was actually ransacked.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

I really wish I could just say that's crazy. Alas, all I can do is say I hope it's overstated.

I wish it wasn't True if you had told me the same thing in 2007 I would have told you too seek help from a professional therapist.

 

[Warp12]

And they wouldn't hesitate to kill you, me or anyone else on these forums if we stood in their way, and they could get away with it, that's what I have known for years and what January 6th finally showed the Nation, they aren't afraid to hang a Vice President, or attack Capitol police on our Most Hallowed grounds, then they are not afraid to attack or harm any of us or our Families if it Furthers their goals. That's the truth of living In this country at this time.

Bro. This stuff belongs in the CT area. I know you are passionate about your beliefs and all, but from the outside it seems like delusional thinking. At minimum.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Bro. This stuff belongs in the CT area. I know you are passionate about your beliefs and all, but from the outside it seems like delusional thinking. At minimum.

Delusional is Trump just saying in his Ralley in Texas, he is going to Pardon the January 6th Criminals, plus I have personally experienced the love Republicans have for the Truth.

 

[BobTheCoward]

My understanding is that is exactly how it works. Although I wouldn't refer to them as "alternate electors." Before the election there is a slate of "candidate electors." After the votes are tapbulated that slate of candidates are elected as actual electors. They are theoretically bound to vote for their party's nominee. But they don't always. Those are faithless electors.

I know someone who was a candidate elector, but since Reagan won the election, he was not an elector. But I grant you that isn't in Arizona.

Fun fact: the Arizona ballot lists the electors for the candidate under the candidate's name. I was surprised to learn not every state does that.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Bro. This stuff belongs in the CT area. I know you are passionate about your beliefs and all, but from the outside it seems like delusional thinking. At minimum.

Yes, we have established that you think that beating up cops, tazing them and shouting for people to get shot and hanged is just harmless fun and games.

Imagine what you would say if the same acts where committed by people in Black Bloc.

 

[Warp12]

Yes, we have established that you think that beating up cops, tazing them and shouting for people to get shot and hanged is just harmless fun and games.

Imagine what you would say if the same acts where committed by people in Black Bloc.

Maybe you can support these claims with evidence. Otherwise, it sounds like you are speaking in tongues.

 

[slyjoe]

Fun fact: the Arizona ballot lists the electors for the candidate under the candidate's name. I was surprised to learn not every state does that.

Correct.

 

[newyorkguy]

I can't find a slam dunk quote about where the Electoral votes are stored but the quote below -- from a Washingtonian article of January 7, 2021 -- makes it sound like they're stored in the Senate Parliamentarian office prior to going to the Senate Chamber.

When rioters entered the Capitol yesterday, the quick-thinking staff of the Senate Parliamentarian’s office made sure to grab boxes of electoral college votes as they fled the building under attack. Washingtonian link

The trouble is, at that point the box or boxes had already been brought to the Chamber. However, the pro-trump forces that stormed the Capitol targeted the office of Senate Parliamentarian Elizabeth MacDonough. They were looking for something.

 

[abaddon]

I'll get back to you about this; I'm still looking for the website where I first saw this information

Good luck. This stuff is a ghost on the intertubes. "I never said that. Prove I said that" is a refrain I hear all to often. It is like the call of the wild.

I have seen and read similar. Not a match exactly but the sentiments are the same. Links if you want them.