The Jan. 6 Investigation

[DevilsAdvocate]

More, this time from New Republic:


Still not clear where the boxes were before being brought to the Senate.

I guess the bigger question is, what if the rioters had been able to seize and destroy the electoral votes? What happens next? There's probably no procedure for that. Not even the Founding Fathers -- so beloved by those on the right -- ever anticipated something like that happening.

The fact that staffers of the Parliamentarian took the boxes of certificates during the evacuation does not imply that the certificates are stored in the Parliamentarian's office prior to being brought to the Senate Chamber before the joint session. The Sergeant at Arms and other security had plenty to deal with. The Senators would be following evacuation instructions. The people from the Parliamentarian's office were still sitting at the dais when the cameras cut out. The people from the Parliamentarian's office do a lot with the certificates during the counting. And they were sitting right there in front of the table with the boxes. It was senior assistant parliamentarian, Leigh Hildebrand, who organized staffers to rescue these boxes and certificates and take them with them to a safe room.

When the story hit the press, there was a picture of two young women carrying one of the boxes. It was mistakenly believed that those were the people who recused the certificates. One of those women talked to the press and explained that she was a staffer for the Democratic Cloakroom. The picture was of her carrying the box from the Senate to the House for the joint session. The boxes were rescued by Parliamentarian staffers. The aides who carry the boxes from the Senate to the House are from different offices (although sometimes some could be with the Parliamentarian's office).

The procession from the Senate to the House with aides carrying the boxes is led by the Secretary of the Senate and the Seargeant at Arms. The Secretary oversees the Office of Public Records and the Office of Senate Security, which maintains classified documents. The Office of Senate Security is authorized and has the responsibility "to develop, establish, and carry out policies
and procedures with respect to such matters as the receipt, control, transmission, storage, destruction or other handling of classified information
addressed to the United States Senate, the President of the Senate, or Members and employees of the Senate." The certificates are probably held in an office maintained by the Office of Senate Security, probably where other such documents are kept.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Unless of course republicans try to say "nobody was picked Jan 6 so between the 6th and 20th we must have the states decide". (Which the supreme court may or may not support)

Sent from my LM-X320 using Tapatalk

It's in the Constitution the swearing in is set in stone, all Nancy has to do is recess congress to the 20th, and she is sworn in.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

I guess the bigger question is, what if the rioters had been able to seize and destroy the electoral votes? What happens next? There's probably no procedure for that. Not even the Founding Fathers -- so beloved by those on the right -- ever anticipated something like that happening.

If the certificates were destroyed, they would use the second copy held by the Archivist. If those are destroyed, they would probably then go to the second copy held by the secretary of state. If those are destroyed, they would send a messenger to get the copies held by the federal district judge.

Destruction of the certificates would have caused a delay, but probably not much. It would have been more symbolic rather than having any practical effect.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

If the certificates were destroyed, they would use the second copy held by the Archivist. If those are destroyed, they would probably then go to the second copy held by the secretary of state. If those are destroyed, they would send a messenger to get the copies held by the federal district judge.

Destruction of the certificates would have caused a delay, but probably not much. It would have been more symbolic rather than having any practical effect.

Yes there was no way Trump could have come out on top in this it was all a Russian useful idiot plot to destroy the faith in our Election process.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...
I guess the bigger question is, what if the rioters had been able to seize and destroy the electoral votes? What happens next? There's probably no procedure for that. Not even the Founding Fathers -- so beloved by those on the right -- ever anticipated something like that happening.

This is what I think is so odd about their fantasy plans—it's not like there is no record of the EC votes besides those in the symbolic box of vote counts.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

Unless of course republicans try to say "nobody was picked Jan 6 so between the 6th and 20th we must have the states decide". (Which the supreme court may or may not support)

Law requires that the joint session continue until the votes are counted. If there is an objection to a vote and the House and Senate withdraw to consider that motion, either house could recess, but only until the next day and not after the 5th day. If nobody had a majority of votes, the House would choose the President. The Constitution requires that the vote by the House take place "immediately". By precedent and contemporary consensus, that is interpreted to mean that the vote takes place without delay and to the exclusion of any other business. The House session could be adjourned by a motion and second by state delegation (not individual Represenatitves). That presumably could delay the House vote until after January 20. The Senate would vote for Vice President. The Republican majority would have selected Pence. If the House had not chosen a President by January 20, Pence would have become acting President and would have remained in that position until the House voted for a new President (to the exclusion of all other business).

 

[smartcooky]

The Certificates are certified by the states the Senate can get the copy of the certified electoral Votes from the national Archives, the fake ones would not have had the proper signatures from the state officials.
There is no way even the taking of the electoral ballots could have accomplished what the rioters wanted the System has an in built back up, they would have to destroy the state Copy, the copy In the Archives and the copy in the house Chamber for the plan to be effective.

There are lots of things that the insurrectionist's tried that would not have worked

As I implied earlier, competency is not one of these moron' fortes

 

[acbytesla]

The problem is, the insurrectionists seemed to attach great importance to delaying certification past January 6th. That if the certification was delayed past 01/06 then trump would be able to declare martial law, invalidate the 2020 election and etc.

Realistically, the Senate or the House would have just set a new date. But reality was not the rioters strong suit.

I know I am being pedantic. And your point is valid. Trivial point, certification wasn't made until 01/07.

 

[acbytesla]

Sorry my spell check Turned martial into Marshall, don't know why robots do that, since spell checks are a crazy bot application.
I was able to paste in from the quote though, and my going off line is because I went to a spot on the farm with bad cell reception because of a hill blocking communication with the cell phone tower.

Yeah, blame it on spell check.

 

[Aridas]

The chaos from only Trump supporters couldn't be something that Republicans could have latched onto!

And yet they tried. There were and are a lot of people somewhat desperate to validate a very false worldview that they've been manipulated into supporting. That also has fallout among the more reasonable, but much less engaged groups where biases and fallacies can be further exploited. "Where there's smoke, there's fire" is not actually true, but the reasoning is frequently superficially persuasive. Going a little further, IIRC, there were rumblings about attempts to screw with the ballots and that being used as further and more legal-sounding justification to add to the mess, which would have been used to sway public sentiment in their direction even more, regardless of how complete the BS was.

It was a failed strategy from the start because it was planned by Trumpsters Incompetent people, that's why Bill Barr abandoned ship, he knew it was a Tanker load of pig Excrement and trinitrotoulene on fire and once it blew everyone was going to be covered in Excrement.

I'm not going to disagree that it was a failed strategy in the short run and that Barr abandoned ship for less than honorable reasons (and I'm certainly not impressed with some more recent attempts to rehabilitate the image of that partisan aider and abetter of Republican crime). The whole thing is more than a little reminiscent of Hitler's Putsch, though, including how it spurred on much more legal measures as the Nazi party worked to seize power.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

This is what I think is so odd about their fantasy plans—it's not like there is no record of the EC votes besides those in the symbolic box of vote counts.

Your Talking about a Group of People who couldn't understand how IBM Paper punch cards worked in 1961, you know holes though paper was too complicated for them to understand.
Don't expect brilliant complicated workable plans from. Them.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

There are lots of things that the insurrectionist's tried that would not have worked

As I implied earlier, competency is not one of these moron' fortes

And I am forever thankful for that, I still have the Buck Knife a Birther Militia Movement member tried to Jab into my back, on Dixie Highway in Louisville Kentucky in 2008.
If these people were competent I would already be dead!
Trying to st ab someone who takes a Chainsaw to his own body isn't very smart I am trained in martial arts and defense, I took such training to do the stunts with a saw I did.
My swim coach was a Seal, one of the first in the Korean War only reason he was in Kentucky is to be close to his Daughter. The only thing that bother me was endangering my family and others. I knew eventually only a matter of time they would come at me with guns, probably hidden where I wouldn't see them. Or they would kidnap or Injure My nieces or my nephew and I couldn't protect them all.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

And yet they tried. There were and are a lot of people somewhat desperate to validate a very false worldview that they've been manipulated into supporting. That also has fallout among the more reasonable, but much less engaged groups where biases and fallacies can be further exploited. "Where there's smoke, there's fire" is not actually true, but the reasoning is frequently superficially persuasive. Going a little further, IIRC, there were rumblings about attempts to screw with the ballots and that being used as further and more legal-sounding justification to add to the mess, which would have been used to sway public sentiment in their direction even more, regardless of how complete the BS was.



I'm not going to disagree that it was a failed strategy in the short run and that Barr abandoned ship for less than honorable reasons (and I'm certainly not impressed with some more recent attempts to rehabilitate the image of that partisan aider and abetter of Republican crime). The whole thing is more than a little reminiscent of Hitler's Putsch, though, including how it spurred on much more legal measures as the Nazi party worked to seize power.

I have too agree with you, they tried, though eventually it couldn't have gone anywhere.

 

[Craig4]

The Certificates are certified by the states the Senate can get the copy of the certified electoral Votes from the national Archives, the fake ones would not have had the proper signatures from the state officials.
There is no way even the taking of the electoral ballots could have accomplished what the rioters wanted the System has an in built back up, they would have to destroy the state Copy, the copy In the Archives and the copy in the house Chamber for the plan to be effective.

Following the law was never the point. The point was to find just enough of a reason to send the ballots back to the states. The conspirators needed to ape the law enough to justify Pence's rejection of the ballots. That Pence didn't intend to participate doesn't make the rest of the conspiracy better.

 

[Craig4]

And I am forever thankful for that, I still have the Buck Knife a Birther Militia Movement member tried to Jab into my back, on Dixie Highway in Louisville Kentucky in 2008.
If these people were competent I would already be dead!
Trying to st ab someone who takes a Chainsaw to his own body isn't very smart I am trained in martial arts and defense, I took such training to do the stunts with a saw I did.
My swim coach was a Seal, one of the first in the Korean War only reason he was in Kentucky is to be close to his Daughter. The only thing that bother me was endangering my family and others. I knew eventually only a matter of time they would come at me with guns, probably hidden where I wouldn't see them. Or they would kidnap or Injure My nieces or my nephew and I couldn't protect them all.

I just threw up a little in my mouth.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Following the law was never the point. The point was to find just enough of a reason to send the ballots back to the states. The conspirators needed to ape the law enough to justify Pence's rejection of the ballots. That Pence didn't intend to participate doesn't make the rest of the conspiracy better.

Yes I know.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

I just threw up a little in my mouth.

HOPE you get better soon, lay off the cat nip.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

I just threw up a little in my mouth.

Ps. I HAVE A witness after the event occurred I called Mitch McConnell's office 15 minutes after the confrontation was over. I reported the brake lines on my truck being cut too the local Sheriff, and my Chainsaws being sledge hammered in Tennessee to the state Police, reason the Chainsaws were sledge hammered is I had to go because someone tried to poison me,so I had to go throw up to get the poison out.

 

[Segnosaur]

If the certification had been delayed past January 6th, a new date could have and would have been selected by legislation.

But how would that legislation have worked?

Assuming both the house and senate decided to pass such legislation quickly (and Moscow Mitch didn't decide to fillibuster it) to count the actual electoral college vote before Jan20... legislation needs to get signed by the president, and I am pretty sure Trump would veto it. (Congress can override the veto, but with so many anti-democracy republican congress-critters, they might not have had the votes to do so.)

Result: They would be passed the legislated day for counting electoral college votes (so any counting wouldn't be legal), they couldn't pass a law to schedule a new date. Without the votes being counted, Pelosi might end up as acting president by default on Jan20th, but then Trump might declare martial law because "There is a constitutional crisis, and we can't give the presidency to someone who wasn't even a candidate". (Ignoring of course he is the reason for the crisis in the first place)

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

But how would that legislation have worked?

Assuming both the house and senate decided to pass such legislation quickly (and Moscow Mitch didn't decide to fillibuster it) to count the actual electoral college vote before Jan20... legislation needs to get signed by the president, and I am pretty sure Trump would veto it. (Congress can override the veto, but with so many anti-democracy republican congress-critters, they might not have had the votes to do so.)

Result: They would be passed the legislated day for counting electoral college votes (so any counting wouldn't be legal), they couldn't pass a law to schedule a new date. Without the votes being counted, Pelosi might end up as acting president by default on Jan20th, but then Trump might declare martial law because "There is a constitutional crisis, and we can't give the presidency to someone who wasn't even a candidate". (Ignoring of course he is the reason for the crisis in the first place)

If congress can't decide on a winner and it isn't put back to the states, then on January 20th the Speaker of the house is sworn in President, Pelosi could have outsmarted Trump Just by recessing congress.