The Jan. 6 Investigation

[Resume]

. . . Trump was the mastermind.

Sir! You go too far.

 

[acbytesla]

Sir! You go too far.

Point taken.

 

[dirtywick]

What do you think should happen to the people who did these things? You saw the videos. You read the reports. What should happen? And don't give me some vague answer.

I would assume attempted murder charges since it was such a big point of contention

 

[dirtywick]

Yes there definitely was a conspiracy. There are at least a dozen Proud Boys and Oath keepers charged with conspiracy.

It's weird to see someone assert there was no conspiracy when people are literally charged with conspiracy. People have already plead guilty to that in fact.

But, to be fair, not attempted murder.

 

[smartcooky]

But attempted murder is a lot more significant than trespassing and disorderly conduct. Shouldn't such cases have priority? Shouldn't at least ONE of the supposed many attempted murderers be up on charges by now? It's not impossible that someone will be. But it seems... unlikely, at this point.

Attempted Murder requires three things

1. An actual witness to the attempt to murder, or forensic evidence that an attempt was made to murder the victim

AND

2. A person or persons to be individually identified as the perpetrator(s) who attempted to murder the victim.

AND

3. Something called "Mens Rea" - the intention of committing the crime charged

It will be very difficult, if not impossible to prove that all three existed. At one extreme end, if you shoot someone with a double tap to the head at point blank range and they somehow survive, it would be fairly easy to prove attempted murder, since you would have a very difficult time explaining what it was that you were actually trying to do. At the other extreme end, if you push someone over and they fall and hit the head, it will be impossible to prove attempted murder.

These Capitol riot cases lie somewhere between those two extremes.

 

[dirtywick]

I think there were people there aiming to kill specific individuals that they never had a chance to and were willing to, and did, hurt other people that stood in their way. I don't think attempted murder is an appropriate charge for any of that though.

 

[smartcooky]

I doubt it. There was no grand conspiracy here.

Bzzzzt: Wrong!

Oath Keepers

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/thre...rs-indicted-federal-court-conspiracy-obstruct

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/oath-keepers-indicted-conspiracy-capitol-riots-kenneth-harrelson/

https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/...nspiracy-charges-related-jan-6-capitol-breach

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/fo...eral-conspiracy-case-court-filing-2021-05-31/

Proud Boys

https://www.npr.org/2021/03/19/9793...arged-with-conspiracy-over-jan-6-capitol-riot

https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/...oys-members-arrested-connection-jan-6-capitol

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/19/politics/proud-boys-indictment-capitol/index.html

Three Percenters

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/10/us/politics/three-percenter-capitol-riot.html

 

[PhantomWolf]

I think there were people there aiming to kill specific individuals that they never had a chance to and were willing to, and did, hurt other people that stood in their way. I don't think attempted murder is an appropriate charge for any of that though.

It is possible that we might see some Felony Murder charges, but again they are tough ones to decide, so it'll take a while to work through the evidence and determine if the charges can be laid.

 

[acbytesla]

It is possible that we might see some Felony Murder charges, but again they are tough ones to decide, so it'll take a while to work through the evidence and determine if the charges can be laid.

I doubt it. Not a fan of felony murder as a crime. How does one decide who out of 600 people who should or shouldn't be charged with this crime? It would be too arbitrary.

 

[dudalb]

TO me it's pretty simple:

If the GOP congress critters have nothing to hide, why are they so against any investigation?

 

[dudalb]

I think the attemtp to shift the discussion to the murder charges is a red herring, a distraction.
They don't want to talk about Insurrection?
And I wonder if they would feel the same way about murder charges if they coame out of the BLM protests?

 

[PhantomWolf]

I doubt it. Not a fan of felony murder as a crime. How does one decide who out of 600 people should or shouldn't be charged with this crime. It would be too arbitrary.

Proximity. Those that were attacking the door with Bappit when she was shot for instance. The trick is to determine who was committing the specific crime with the person killed or was involved in their killing rather than charging everyone. Hence why it would likely take a lot of time.

 

[Joecool]

TO me it's pretty simple:

If the GOP congress critters have nothing to hide, why are they so against any investigation?

Who said the GOP congress was against "any investigation"?

Or turning the spin around, why was Pelosi against a bipartisan investigation?

 

[acbytesla]

Proximity. Those that were attacking the door with Bappit when she was shot for instance. The trick is to determine who was committing the specific crime with the person killed or was involved in their killing rather than charging everyone. Hence why it would likely take a lot of time.

Maybe. But other windows and doors were broken through by the rioters. Do you charge anyone near those locations? This seems too arbitrary.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Who said the GOP congress was against "any investigation"?

Or turning the spin around, why was Pelosi against a bipartisan investigation?

Huh? Do you mean like the one that the Democrats put forward that had 6 members from each party, with a chair and co-chair, one from each party, and with equal powers? The one that gave Republicans everything they asked for except inclusion of the irrelevant BLM protests? Do you mean like that bipartisan investigation for which only 2 Republicans were willing to vote for? That bipartisan investigation?

Or do you mean how after Pelosi rejected two of the five nominated Republicans, both of who have shown that they would not be impartial, and one who is a potential witness, MacCarthy reacted by refusing to let any Republicans serve on the committee instead of just nominating two others who weren't implicated in the insurrection? Cause you know, I'm just wondering.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

You can call it whatever you want, it remains true. Insulting me won't change that. More investigation won't find what they've been unable to find any trace of so far.
And really, what do you expect? You expect a grand conspiracy spearheaded by the likes of that idiot with a buffalo hat and face paint? That's how you topple the US federal government? Please. They might find a few loons in a basement who "conspired", but there isn't going to be anything else, no matter how long you look.

You so are not paying attention. And your face-painted guy with the horns on his hat is a serious straw man here. Who said he had jack to do with the conspiracy?

No. There was planning. You think those guys wear flack jackets and helmets whenever they visit DC? Radios, plenty of chatter in the days leading up to the rally...

Then you have Dump's role. It looks like, though we haven't seen all the evidence yet, that Dump planned to delay help arriving.

So stop wasting our time with the shiny objects like shaman hats and podium stealers. There was some serious (though clearly stupid) planning here.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Maybe. But other windows and doors were broken through by the rioters. Do you charge anyone near those locations? This seems too arbitrary.

Did anyone die there? Felony Murder requires that those charged are involved with the crime that was happening at the time of the killing, only those directly involved can be charged, there is nothing arbitrary about that.

 

[acbytesla]

Who said the GOP congress was against "any investigation"?

They did. They were given every opportunity to have a joint investigation and refused.

Or turning the spin around, why was Pelosi against a bipartisan investigation?

This is revisionist history as well as inaccurate.
1. They were given every opportunity to have a joint investigation and refused.
2, This is a bipartisan investigation. There are 2 Republicans on the committee.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Attempted Murder requires three things

1. An actual witness to the attempt to murder, or forensic evidence that an attempt was made to murder the victim

AND

2. A person or persons to be individually identified as the perpetrator(s) who attempted to murder the victim.

AND

3. Something called "Mens Rea" - the intention of committing the crime charged

It will be very difficult, if not impossible to prove that all three existed. At one extreme end, if you shoot someone with a double tap to the head at point blank range and they somehow survive, it would be fairly easy to prove attempted murder, since you would have a very difficult time explaining what it was that you were actually trying to do. At the other extreme end, if you push someone over and they fall and hit the head, it will be impossible to prove attempted murder.

These Capitol riot cases lie somewhere between those two extremes.

Not so difficult with all those videos. Maybe they'll get to plea down to 'with intent to cause serious bodily harm'. But according to the police testimony, death threads were clearly made during the vicious attacks.

 

[Stacyhs]

Two (all three?) of those links mention court documents in which the rioters admit to wanting to kill Pence and Pelosi, but none of your links contain links to those court documents, and a quick internet search came up empty for me, too. Do you have any links to those court documents?

The other piece of evidence along those lines, other than a news article saying that the court documents exist, was a tweet from a photographer who overheard several rioters saying they want to kill P & P. That's a first-hand witness, but I'd love to see those court docs.

No, I don't have a link to those court documents. It's likely they are still restricted to only certain clearances seeing them.