The Historical Jesus II

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Not if the whole thing was invented as a hoax hundreds of years later, as dejudge proposes.

Again, you display intellectual dishonesty. You very well know that Brainache argues that Paul was a liar and con-man and was NOT A Jew but an Herodian YET STILL ACCPET Galatians 1.19 at FACE VALUE without contemporary corroboration.

You admit your Paul was an Auditory Hallucinator yet accept Galatians 1.19 at FACE VALUE.

Your Paul HEARD things and FALSELY CLAIMED he SAW them.

Your Paul HEARD about the Resurrection of Jesus and FALSELY claimed he was SEEN of Jesus after he was raised from the dead.

When did Jesus resurrect if he did die??

Your Paul HEARD about the Apostles Peter and James and claimed he MET them in Jerusalem.

How could Paul meet Apostles who did not exist??

Paul was NOTHING but a 2ND CENTURY OR LATER LYING AUDITORY Hallucinator who may have been off his NUT.
 
Again, you display intellectual dishonesty. You very well know that Brainache argues that Paul was a liar and con-man and was NOT A Jew but an Herodian YET STILL ACCPET Galatians 1.19 at FACE VALUE without contemporary corroboration.
You are spouting balderdash. Have you not read what Brainache wrote?
Having seen the claim, we now ask: "Why is Paul making this claim?" "To whom is he making the claim?" "Who is this 'Lord's brother' and why is he so important?" etc...
That's not "face value", is it?
 
The HJers have watered down their Jesus to an unknown itinerant Jewish preacher more myth than reality yet still insist they believe in an historical Jesus as witnessed in the bible.

While Carrier admits in one of his blogs this is an out he also states this position is not without its own issues:

"Because if it’s so, you are conceding the Gospels are lying (egregiously…and evidently, successfully) and that Jesus never said or did anything in life that would inspire fanatical worshipers or warrant anyone considering him worth dying for–because nothing Jesus ever said or did in life is ever relevant to the gospel preached anywhere in the authentic letters of Paul…which begs the question how he convinced anyone he was the Messiah and Savior who would soon return on clouds of glory if he never said or did anything anyone thought impressive enough to ever discuss until a lifetime later."

While I have issue with Carrier pointing to Jesus rather then Paul, who is writing to all these groups 15 to 20 years after he converted (so how do we know Paul didn't help create/convert them?) the basic issue is still the same.

How do you get from a movement that is basically off every non-Christian's radar to one reasonably well known by the 90-110 period?

And if Christianity was off ever non-Christian's radar for well on 50 to 60 years why not add another 50 to 60 years (making Mead's c 100 BC Jesus plausible)?

Does it even make sense for a movement claimed to be so wide spread in the Gospels and Acts to not be noticed by anyone for 50 to 60 years? If we rather consider Paul converting already existing messiah groups tot he idea that Jesus was the real 'christ' rather then some angel then you get a 30-50 range which makes a little more sense.

Another fly in the ointment is why did Paul, who had to know the views regarding the Emperor's Numen were, think pleading his case to the Emperor was a good idea?

And as I said the last time you brought this up, Jesus was different to those Greek gods in that he supposedly lived in the recent past and interacted with known contemporaries like John the Baptist, Pilate, Caiaphas, James and Peter etc. He wasn't a folkloric hero from the distant past to Paul.

And the last time you brought up this I pointed to John Frum and Ned Ludd as counter examples and even threw in John Henry for good measure.

The first record instance of the John Henry story is 1894 and the two sources are both in the 1870s and in roughtly the same area: Big Bend Tunnel. near Talcott, West Virginia and Lewis Tunnel, between Talcott and Millboro, Virginia.

Given the closeness of John Frum (10 to 30 years), Ned Ludd (about 40 years), and John Henry (about 20 years) to the stories about them are we to assume they were actual people as well?
 
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While Carrier admits in one of his blogs this is an out he also states this position is not without its own issues:

"Because if it’s so, you are conceding the Gospels are lying (egregiously…and evidently, successfully) and that Jesus never said or did anything in life that would inspire fanatical worshipers or warrant anyone considering him worth dying for–because nothing Jesus ever said or did in life is ever relevant to the gospel preached anywhere in the authentic letters of Paul…which begs the question how he convinced anyone he was the Messiah and Savior who would soon return on clouds of glory if he never said or did anything anyone thought impressive enough to ever discuss until a lifetime later."

...

I don't think it follows that just because mythic elements were added to the Jesus stories it means that "Jesus never said or did anything in life that would inspire fanatical worshipers"... I think Carrier is fighting a strawman here. No one is saying that nothing of the HJ made it into the bible, just that a lot of other stuff made its way in there as well, starting with the teachings of Paul, which were in conflict with the earlier group.

He is ignoring the people whose organisation Paul persecuted and later joined. He is ignoring the fact that the surviving canonical gospels are not all that was said or written about Jesus.

And apparently you don't even agree with his conclusions... Why do you keep citing this guy?

ETA: Look at someone like the Teacher Of Righteousness from the DSS, what did he do to inspire fanatical followers? He taught people to obey the Law of Moses and live in a commune, give to the poor, practice forgiveness etc. His followers said "...the breakers of the Covenant, will not believe when they hear all that [is to happen to] the final generation from the Priest [in whose heart] God set [understanding] that he might interpret all the words of his servants the prophets, through whom he foretold all that would happen to his people and [his land]." (http://www.preteristarchive.com/BibleStudies/DeadSeaScrolls/1QpHab_pesher_habakkuk.html).

Just like the early Jewish Christian followers of Jesus said about him: "a new Priest, to whom all the words of the Lord shall be revealed; and He shall execute a judgment of truth upon the earth,88 in the fulness of days." ( http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf08.iii.v.html )

If you're looking for a magical water-walking son of a ghost, he isn't the HJ.
 
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I don't think it follows that just because mythic elements were added to the Jesus stories it means that "Jesus never said or did anything in life that would inspire fanatical worshipers"... I think Carrier is fighting a strawman here. No one is saying that nothing of the HJ made it into the bible, just that a lot of other stuff made its way in there as well, starting with the teachings of Paul, which were in conflict with the earlier group.

What you think [speculate] about the Jesus story has no historical value because you will not be able to provide the supporting evidence from antiquity.

You are just saying things that are futile.

What "stuff" are you talking about?
Which "Paul" are you talking about?
When did your Paul write "stuff"?

None of the existing manuscripts were written by Paul if your Paul lived since the time of Aretas.

Saul/Paul wrote NO Epistles in Acts.

Brainache said:
Just like the early Jewish Christian followers of Jesus said about him: "a new Priest, to whom all the words of the Lord shall be revealed; and He shall execute a judgment of truth upon the earth,88 in the fulness of days." ( http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf08.iii.v.html )

Another example of intellectual dishonesty.

1. The passage you quoted is not an historical account from followers of Jesus but was from a DREAM of a character called Levi when he was SLEEPING.

2. In addition, Jesus of Nazareth is not mentioned.

3. Plus, the writing may be a forgery or falsely attributed to Levi.

4. The character called LORD is not a figure of history.

5. The writing is NOT contemporary.

Brainache said:
If you're looking for a magical water-walking son of a ghost, he isn't the HJ.

Of course your Jesus is not the ascending, resurrecting, transfiguring, water walking son of a God born of a Ghost and a Virgin.

Your Jesus is NOT in the Pauline Corpus--the Pauline Jesus was the LORD from heaven.

Your Jesus is NOTHING but a modern myth--a fiction of your imagination.
 
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Another example of intellectual dishonesty.

1. The passage you quoted is not an historical account from followers of Jesus but was from a DREAM of a character called Levi when he was SLEEPING.

Yes. Whoever wrote that passage was saying that Levi (one of the twelve Patriarchs of Israel) had a dream which foretold of the coming of Jesus.

2. In addition, Jesus of Nazareth is not mentioned.

3. Plus, the writing may be a forgery or falsely attributed to Levi.

Of course it wasn't written by Levi. It was composed some time between the fall of the Temple in 70 CE and the Bar Kochba revolt in 130 CE. It was written by Jewish-Christians or Ebionites .

4. The character called LORD is not a figure of history.

The authors of that passage thought he was. They wanted their readers to believe that "The Lord" had been prophesied by the founding fathers of the nation of Israel.

It includes this passage about what God said to Levi:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf08.iii.v.html
And a blessing shall be given to thee, and to all thy seed, until the Lord shall visit all the heathen in the tender mercies of His Son, even for ever. Nevertheless thy sons shall lay hands upon Him to crucify Him; and therefore have counsel and understanding been given thee, that thou mightest instruct thy sons concerning Him, because he that blesseth Him shall be blessed, but they that curse Him shall perish.

Now I'll bet that the real "Levi" if he even existed, had no such vision of the son of God coming down to earth and being crucified etc, but that is what the character of "Levi" says in this story.

5. The writing is NOT contemporary.

...

Not really the point I was making, but here is a little bit more about it from the introduction by someone called R. S. from Trinity College, Cambridge. February 21, 1871.:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf08.iii.ii.html
...It cannot be placed very late in the second century, seeing that it is almost certainly quoted by Tertullian,15 and that Origen16 cites the Testaments by name, apparently indeed holding it in considerable respect. We can, however, approximate much more nearly than this; for the allusions to the destruction of Jerusalem assign to the Testaments a date subsequent to that event. This will harmonize perfectly with what is the natural inference from several passages,—namely, that the Gentiles now were a majority in the Church,—as well as with the presence of the many formulæ to express the incarnation, and with the apparent collection of the books of the New Testament into a volume.17

On the other hand, important evidence as to the posterior limit of the date of writing may be derived from the language used with reference to the priesthood. Christ is both High Priest and King, and His former office is higher than the latter, and to Him the old priesthood must resign its rights. Now such language as this would be almost meaningless after Hadrian’s destruction of Jerusalem consequent on the revolt of Bar-Cochba (a.d. 135), after which all power of Judaism for acting directly upon Christianity ceased; and, indeed, on the hypothesis of a later date, we should doubtless find allusions to the revolt and its suppression. On the above grounds, we infer that the writing of the Testaments is to be placed in a period ranging from late in the first century to the revolt of Bar-Cochba; closer than this it is perhaps not safe to draw our limits.18
...
...But as to the work itself, seeing it exists, I must acknowledge that it seems to me a valuable relic of antiquity, and an interesting specimen of the feelings and convictions of those believers over whom St. James presided in Jerusalem:13 “Israelites indeed,” but “zealous of the law.” ...

Or maybe it was all invented centuries later as part of a hoax...:rolleyes:
 
dejudge said:
Another example of intellectual dishonesty.

1. The passage you quoted is not an historical account from followers of Jesus but was from a DREAM of a character called Levi when he was SLEEPING.
Yes. Whoever wrote that passage was saying that Levi (one of the twelve Patriarchs of Israel) had a dream which foretold of the coming of Jesus.

So somebody had a DREAM while they were sleeping and that is your evidence to support your HJ argument!!!

Again, may I remind you that the Jewish Christ has not yet come.

There is no historical evidence that Jews dreamed of the coming of Jesus.

The Christian Jesus was Blasphemy to the Jews.


Brainache said:
Of course it wasn't written by Levi. It was composed some time between the fall of the Temple in 70 CE and the Bar Kochba revolt in 130 CE. It was written by Jewish-Christians or Ebionites .

The Magic Jesus story and character was BLASPHEMY to the Jews.


Brainache said:
The authors of that passage thought he was. They wanted their readers to believe that "The Lord" had been prophesied by the founding fathers of the nation of Israel.

You just made up that story. You don't know what you are talking about. The passage does not even mention Jesus of Nazareth.

Your assumptions are worthless when you are asked to present evidence from antiquity.

Brainache said:
It includes this passage about what God said to Levi:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf08.iii.v.html


Now I'll bet that the real "Levi" if he even existed, had no such vision of the son of God coming down to earth and being crucified etc, but that is what the character of "Levi" says in this story.

So, the passage is historically useless to argue for an HJ.

Levi DREAMED of the Son of God--NO body dreamed of HJ.
 
I don't think it follows that just because mythic elements were added to the Jesus stories it means that "Jesus never said or did anything in life that would inspire fanatical worshipers"... I think Carrier is fighting a strawman here. No one is saying that nothing of the HJ made it into the bible, just that a lot of other stuff made its way in there as well, starting with the teachings of Paul, which were in conflict with the earlier group.

That is NOT what Carrier is saying here as I explained in the part you snipped:

How do you get from a movement that is basically off every non-Christian's radar to one reasonably well known by the 90-110 period?

And if Christianity was off ever non-Christian's radar for well on 50 to 60 years why not add another 50 to 60 years (making Mead's c 100 BC Jesus plausible)?

As Carrier pointed out these fanatics should have been writing back and forth to each other so what happened to their writings? And if the Church latter destroyed those writing they certain would have done the same to any evidence they could get their hands on that clearly showed a Jesus outside the time frame they had selected or did not show the wildly popular Jesus of the Gospels.


He is ignoring the people whose organisation Paul persecuted and later joined. He is ignoring the fact that the surviving canonical gospels are not all that was said or written about Jesus.

Carrier ignores neither of these points.


"17. Why did Paul persecute the Christians then? Goodacre argued that Paul persecuted the Christians (before his own conversion) “presumably because of this idea that the messiah was going to be crucified.” I am aware of no actual evidence to support that. It’s a common Christian apologetic today. But it has no basis in any evidence. Jews actually had no demonstrable problem with dying messiahs: the Talmud shows it even became an orthodox notion, and no one there shows any idea that it was ever blasphemous or criminal, and it clearly was not inconceivable, since the Talmudic Jews readily conceived of it. So did the author of Daniel. And possibly the author of 11Q13. (On all these points see my Dying Messiah Redux.) In contrast, there is not only no evidence, but there isn’t even any logical reason why preaching a crucified messiah would be a persecuting offense to the Jewish authorities. Why would they care? It violates no law in Torah or Mishnah. If I had to guess, a more likely reason Paul persecuted the early church is the fact that its gospel replaced the temple cult (and thus Levitical law: Hebrews 8-9), but we don’t really know, because Paul never says. Of course, even apart from the legal question, if the idea of a crucified messiah was preposterous, it would be just as preposterous (in fact more so) for a celestial messiah to be crucified, so again this argument is a wash. One stumbling block is as stumbly as the other." - Carrier The Goodacre Debate

As for works outside the canonal Gospels Carrier points to several in his book including the DSS something that was mentioned months ago.

ETA: Look at someone like the Teacher Of Righteousness from the DSS, what did he do to inspire fanatical followers?

Which one? The one of the 2nd century BCE, the one form 1st century BCE or the one from 1st century CE ( Freund,Richard A (2009) Digging through the Bible: modern archaeology and the ancient Bible Rowman & Littlefield ISBN 978-0742546455 pg 287)

Or do we have a position passed down from generation to generation?

Or as with John Frum do we have several fanatical believers taking up the title in an effort to take the movement in a particular direction?
 
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So somebody had a DREAM while they were sleeping and that is your evidence to support your HJ argument!!!

No. Someone wrote a story about an ancient prophecy. That story was written some time in the late first century or early second century.

Again, may I remind you that the Jewish Christ has not yet come.

There is no historical evidence that Jews dreamed of the coming of Jesus.

The Christian Jesus was Blasphemy to the Jews.

You have been here how long? How many times have you been told about the Ebionites?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebionites
Ebionites, or Ebionaioi (Greek: Ἐβιωναῖοι; derived from Hebrew אביונים ebyonim, ebionim, meaning "the poor" or "poor ones"), is a patristic term referring to a Jewish Christian movement that existed during the early centuries of the Christian Era.[1] They regarded Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah while rejecting his divinity[2] and insisted on the necessity of following Jewish law and rites.[3] The Ebionites used only one of the Jewish Gospels, revered James the Just and rejected Paul the Apostle as an apostate from the Law.[4] Their name suggests that they placed a special value on voluntary poverty. The Ebionim was one of the terms used by the sect at Qumran that sought to separate themselves from the corruption of the Temple, whom many believe were the Essenes.[5]
...

If you don't believe wikipedia, follow the links and the footnotes.

The Magic Jesus story and character was BLASPHEMY to the Jews.

Not those Jews, obviously.

You just made up that story. You don't know what you are talking about. The passage does not even mention Jesus of Nazareth.

Your assumptions are worthless when you are asked to present evidence from antiquity.

I'm not making anything up. The passage about a son of god who would be crucified by the descendants of Levi was written some time in the late first or early second century.


So, the passage is historically useless to argue for an HJ.

Levi DREAMED of the Son of God--NO body dreamed of HJ.

Fifty or a hundred years afterwards, there were still Jews who were teaching that Jesus was a "Son of God".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_the_Ebionites
...The surviving fragments derive from a gospel harmony of the Synoptic Gospels, composed in Greek with various expansions and abridgments reflecting the theology of the writer. Distinctive features include the absence of the virgin birth and of the genealogy of Jesus; an Adoptionist Christology,[n 4] in which Jesus is chosen to be God's Son at the time of his Baptism; the abolition of the Jewish sacrifices by Jesus; and an advocacy of vegetarianism.[n 5] It is believed to have been composed some time during the middle of the 2nd century[2] in or around the region east of the Jordan River.[n 6] Although the gospel was said to be used by "Ebionites" during the time of the early church,[n 7] the identity of the group or groups that used it remains a matter of conjecture.[n 8]...

Again, follow the footnotes if you don't trust wiki...

ETA: Anyway, the whole point of posting the first quote from "The Testaments Of The Patriarchs" was to show that the description of Jesus there was very similar to the DSS Habakkuk Pesher description of the Teacher Of Righteousness. That was to rebut a quote from Carrier that a HJ couldn't have done anything to inspire fanatical followers. Do you have any comment on my main point?

ETA2: More wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testaments_of_the_Twelve_Patriarchs
The Testament of Levi is an apocalyptic section. It is one of the longest of the Testaments, and is predominantly concerned with arrogance. Taking the theme of the Levite priesthood, the Testament explains how Levi's descendants corrupted the office by their arrogant disregard for the proper regulations.

Chapter 2-8 involves Levi being taken to heaven and promised the priesthood forever, and then seven angels physically give him the insignia of the priesthood (as described in Exodus). This part parallels the beginning and end of a vision in the Aramaic Levi Document, whence the body of the vision is now lost; and is thought to preserve that part of the text.[10]
...
Aramaic Levi Document[edit]
One way in which this testament is distinguished from the others is by additional footnotes in a Greek version of the manuscript from Mount Athos. These footnotes were found to be translated from a non-apocalyptic precursor of the text in Aramaic, partially preserved in the Dead Sea Scrolls. The find consisted of six fragments in two manuscripts from cave 4 (4Q213-214). A small related fragment was also found in cave 1 (1Q21).

So it looks like there is more of a connection with the DSS than I knew. Crikey!
 
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You destroy Jerusalem and the Temple.

And yet movements that were one least one non-Christian's radar (Josephus) died with their founders-main leaders (The TF IMHO is a clear forgery).

In fact, Jonathan the weaver, yet anther Messiah want a be, was still doing his thing in 73 CE some three years after both Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed:

"The madness of the Sicarii, like a disease, reached as far as the cities of Cyrenaica, because one Jonathan, a vile person, and by trade a weaver, came thither and prevailed with no small number of the poorer sort to give ear to him. He led them into the desert, upon promising them that he would show them signs and apparitions. [...] Those of the greatest dignity among the Jews of Cyrene informed Catullus, the governor of the Libyan Pentapolis, of Jonathan's march into the desert, and of the preparations he had made for it. So Catullus sent out after him both horsemen and footmen, and easily overcame them, because they were unarmed. Many were slain in the fight, but some were taken alive, and brought to Catullus. As for Jonathan, the head of this plot, he fled away at that time; but upon a great and very diligent search, which was made all the country over for him, he was at last taken." - Jewish War 7.437-450.

If you are wondering the Romans decided that burning Jonathan the weaver alive was a fitting punishment.

Also it wasn't until after Bar Kokhba revolt of the 130s that both Judea and Jerusalem were "officially" destroyed becoming Syria Palaestina and Aelia Capitolina respectively. Until that point there was always the hope that the temple and city would be rebuilt as the had been the case with the destroyed first temple.

It is in the 130s when our first possible one line references to the Gospels appear and in the 140s when the first attempt at a Christian bible supposedly occurred. So it is the Bar Kokhba revolt and not the Siege of Jerusalem when Christianity got its act together and started to really hammer things out into a more cohesive whole
 
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And yet movements that were one least one non-Christian's radar (Josephus) died with their founders-main leaders (The TF IMHO is a clear forgery).

In fact, Jonathan the weaver, yet anther Messiah want a be, was still doing his thing in 73 CE some three years after both Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed:

"The madness of the Sicarii, like a disease, reached as far as the cities of Cyrenaica, because one Jonathan, a vile person, and by trade a weaver, came thither and prevailed with no small number of the poorer sort to give ear to him. He led them into the desert, upon promising them that he would show them signs and apparitions. [...] Those of the greatest dignity among the Jews of Cyrene informed Catullus, the governor of the Libyan Pentapolis, of Jonathan's march into the desert, and of the preparations he had made for it. So Catullus sent out after him both horsemen and footmen, and easily overcame them, because they were unarmed. Many were slain in the fight, but some were taken alive, and brought to Catullus. As for Jonathan, the head of this plot, he fled away at that time; but upon a great and very diligent search, which was made all the country over for him, he was at last taken." - Jewish War 7.437-450.

If you are wondering the Romans decided that burning Jonathan the weaver alive was a fitting punishment.

Also it wasn't until after Bar Kokhba revolt of the 130s that both Judea and Jerusalem were "officially" destroyed becoming Syria Palaestina and Aelia Capitolina respectively. Until that point there was always the hope that the temple and city would be rebuilt as the had been the case with the destroyed first temple.

It is in the 130s when our first possible one line references to the Gospels appear and in the 140s when the first attempt at a Christian bible supposedly occurred. So it is the Bar Kokhba revolt and not the Siege of Jerusalem when Christianity got its act together and started to really hammer things out into a more cohesive whole

But we know it existed before then, because Pliny has to deal with Christians in about 110 in Bithynia, so he writes to the Emperor for advice on Christians and the Emperor Trajan seems to know all about them. How did that happen?
 
And yet movements that were one least one non-Christian's radar (Josephus) died with their founders-main leaders (The TF IMHO is a clear forgery).
Yes, but so what? You wanted to know how Christianity got on the radar. I try to explain. So what do you want now?
when Christianity got its act together and started to really hammer things out into a more cohesive whole
And that's not necessarily the same thing.

As Brainache points out, Pliny was investigating this sect in 111-113 CE, and he gives a recognisable account of it, including its major particularity, that its adherents worship the messiah as a god. Not only that: he found people, he avers, who had previously been Christians, but had left the movement twenty five years before he interrogated them. Thus, they were claiming to have been adherents in say the 80s CE.
 
No contemporary evidence.


Do you think there is some non-contemporary evidence of a human Jesus?

What evidence at all, contemporary or otherwise, do you think there is of anyone ever reliably describing how they had met a human Jesus?

Or do you just mean there is evidence of peoples religious belief in a Jesus figure who none of them had ever known?

And where would you obtain any such evidence, what reliable source would you use? The gospels?? Really?

Or what about Paul's letters? Well those letters make a insistently clear that not only had Paul never met a human Jesus, but further that all who "witnessed" Jesus, witnessed only a spiritual Jesus in the heavens. There is no human Jesus described as known to anyone in Paul's letters.
 
Do you think there is some non-contemporary evidence of a human Jesus?

What evidence at all, contemporary or otherwise, do you think there is of anyone ever reliably describing how they had met a human Jesus?

Or do you just mean there is evidence of peoples religious belief in a Jesus figure who none of them had ever known?

And where would you obtain any such evidence, what reliable source would you use? The gospels?? Really?

Or what about Paul's letters? Well those letters make a insistently clear that not only had Paul never met a human Jesus, but further that all who "witnessed" Jesus, witnessed only a spiritual Jesus in the heavens. There is no human Jesus described as known to anyone in Paul's letters.

Unless of course you count the people Paul says Jesus broke bread with, drank wine with and made a promise to...

Oh that's right, you agree with Carrier that Paul was talking about a celestial sub-lunar Jesus who was built by god from his heavenly Davidic sperm bank...

Except you don't agree with Carrier's idea of a celestial sub-lunar Jesus...

Seems legit. :rolleyes:
 
No it doesn't. You're talking nonsense. Where have I said anything about metaphor? The Bible is a collection of works containing all manner of stories, some contradictory. It is not the word of God, so it is not all true. But neither was all of it composed as fiction, so it may contain true statements.



Which bits about Jesus does this quote apply to "but neither was all of it composed as fiction"? We are only arguing about the parts of the bible that describe the existence of Jesus, remember? That's what is in dispute - Jesus.

So which parts of the bible are you now claiming to be "not all composed as fiction" about Jesus?


Instead of silly provocation, which MJers indulge in copiously, perhaps you could tell me why every statement in the Bible is necessarily false, if that's what you're arguing. If that's not what you are arguing, I would be grateful to learn from you what point you are in fact making.


All the statements about Jesus in the letters and gospels do in fact appear to be untrue fiction.

Take a step back for a moment - the first thing to realise is that the gospels contain so much blatantly untrue fiction about Jesus, that they are completely discredited as a reliable source about anything, and especially as a source about a miraculous messiah that none of those authors had ever known. The gospels are about as far as it's possible to imagine from a credible source of fact. If you are relying on the gospels as your source then you really have no case at all.

Paul's letters are of no more help to a HJ though. Because Paul never actually describes anything about himself or anyone else knowing any human Jesus. The Jesus figure that Paul knew was only ever a talking spirit in the sky who Paul described as known to him "according to scripture". And all the 500+ other people who Paul described as "witness" to Jesus, were witness only to a spiritual vision from the heavens.

So which of the biblical statements about Jesus are you claiming to be known as actually true (and "not all composed as fiction")?
 
So somebody had a DREAM while they were sleeping and that is your evidence to support your HJ argument!!!

Again, may I remind you that the Jewish Christ has not yet come.

There is no historical evidence that Jews dreamed of the coming of Jesus.

The Christian Jesus was Blasphemy to the Jews.

The Magic Jesus story and character was BLASPHEMY to the Jews.

You just made up that story. You don't know what you are talking about. The passage does not even mention Jesus of Nazareth.

Your assumptions are worthless when you are asked to present evidence from antiquity.


So, the passage is historically useless to argue for an HJ.

Levi DREAMED of the Son of God--NO body dreamed of HJ.
Here's ultra-right Christian extremist Robert Spencer telling us there's evidence for the existence of Jesus, but not for that of Muhammad.

It is becoming fashionable when denying the truth of a religion, to deny that it supposed founder ever existed. Here's the reasoning: if (Jesus/Muhammad) never existed, then (Christianity/Islam) would be proven to be false. But (Christianity/islam) is indeed false. Therefore (Jesus/Muhammad) never existed. QED.
 
But we know it existed before then, because Pliny has to deal with Christians in about 110 in Bithynia, so he writes to the Emperor for advice on Christians and the Emperor Trajan seems to know all about them. How did that happen?

Again, you display intellectual dishonesty.

1. You know that the Pliny letter to Trajan does not acknowledge any character called Jesus of Nazareth.

2. You know that the term Christians does not necessarily mean believers or followers of Jesus of Nazareth.

3. You know that "Against Heresies" attributed to Irenaeus described the beliefs of MULTIPLE Christian cults which did NOT accept the stories about Jesus of Nazareth.

PLease, stop your NONSENSE and intellectual dishonesty.

The Pliny letter to Trajan is useless to argue for an historical Jesus of Nazareth.

It is intellectually dishonest to put out the notion that all persons called Christians in antiquity were followers of Jesus of Nazareth or believed stories about the character.
 
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Not at all. Having seen the claim, we now ask: "Why is Paul making this claim?" "To whom is he making the claim?" "Who is this 'Lord's brother' and why is he so important?" etc...

It isn't a case of just taking it at face value because even if it is false, the claim itself can teach us something.

Not if the whole thing was invented as a hoax hundreds of years later, as dejudge proposes.



This is actually the same claim that we have been over literally hundreds of times before - the claim that someone named James was the actual human brother of Jesus.

But what is undoubtedly true about that claim is that all the evidence shows that it is far more likely that the remark in Paul's letter was never meant to mean a family brother at all.

Because firstly, Paul uses the terms "brother", "brothers", "brethren", "sister", "sisters" far more often to mean only brothers and sisters in faith, and not family members. So just on that statistical basis alone, it is far more likely that the line "save James, the Lords brother" only meant a brother in the faith.

Secondly - that same James was supposed to have written his own gospel. But nowhere in that gospel does he ever claim to be the brother of Jesus. In fact he never claims to have ever met any human Jesus at all.

We could also add that those five words "save James, the Lords brother" are positioned at the end of an otherwise completed sentence. I.e. they are presented in the form of an afterthought, as if the writer had forgotten that he had met "James", and later remembered to add that remark. In fact the proceeding words actually say "other apostles saw I none ...". So the addition is actually in the form of a correction as well as an afterthought I.e. as if the original author intended only to say "other apostles saw I none". And then somebody has remembered that he supposedly met "James", and he adds "...save for James". And then after that, somebody felt that they needed to explain who this James was and added " ... the lords brother".

Though whether that was ever written in any original letters from Paul, or whether it was a later copyists addition, is of course unknown. Though we do of course know that the later copyists, who produced all the known extant biblical writing, certainly were in the habit of often making changes like that. In fact, out of 13 letters said to be written by “Paul”, about half of them are now regarded as complete fakes ... not merely filled with “interpolations”, but entirely “interpolation” from start to finish. And finally on that point - that one ultra brief remark of just 5 words "save James, the lords brother", was never again repeated anywhere in any of Paul's supposedly genuine letters.

And another point - in his book, Carrier says that all baptised Christians at that time, were said to be brothers of the Lord. That is, he says - the term "brother of the lord" only meant someone who had been correctly baptised in the faith.
 
Non-posting readers of this thread who may still think there is actually still some sort of evidenec in the bible for a human Jesus, should take a long hard look at quotes such as the following which are still being produced by one of the two remaining permanent HJ believers here -


Unless of course you count the people Paul says Jesus broke bread with, drank wine with and made a promise to...



That quote is trying to claim that we should believe Jesus was real because in one of Paul's letters it says that on the night of his betrayal Jesus sat eating bread and drinking wine with disciples. We are supposed to believe that means Jesus must have been real because only real people sit around eating and drinking.

That lords supper story originates from one of Paul's letters. But as has just been explained at least a dozen times on the past few pages alone, when Paul offers that story to his readers, he is absolutely insistent and absolutely clear about where he got that story from. He got it by revelation from the Lord!

In telling that story, Paul says (from memory) "for I received of the Lord, what I now pass on to you ...". There can be absolutely no mistake about what Paul says there. He does NOT claim to have got any such story from any humans who were present at any such supper. And he did not get it as a result of himself being at the supper. Instead the story came to him as divine revelation from the Lord who was by then a dead talking spirit from the sky!

And yet the HJ poster above is still trying to tell people here that Paul's divine revelations from a heavenly spirit are evidence showing Jesus was real. And that by the way is the same HJ believer who just spectacularly blew his own HJ position to pieces by admitting that he believes Jesus was a “composite character” made up of various anonymous people (which is a long-time classic mythicist theory, not a HJ position at all).

That just shows the utterly absurd depths to which the HJ position has now sunk.
 
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