The Hawaii 30 Meter Telescope Controversy

[JoeMorgue]

I'm curious what other people think about this whole controversy.

Long story short some people want to build a telescope on a site in Hawaii, other people say site is sacred, and the entire discussion has been dipped in the "But America colonized Hawaii" baggage.

Me personally "OMG WHITE PEOPOLES WITH THEIR COLONIALISM!" isn't enough for me to shift allegiance in the ongoing battle between "Advance our understanding of the universe with science by building new tools" and "BUT MAGIC MAN IN THE SKY SAY MOUNTAIN IN SPECIAL!"

 

[TragicMonkey]

I like astronomy amd science too, but that doesn't mean I think it's okay to perform it wherever I find it convenient despite other people's claims to the land. Who actually owns the place? That's the critical point.

Just because other people's notions are silly doesn't mean they have no legal right to property.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I'm curious what other people think about this whole controversy.

Long story short some people want to build a telescope on a site in Hawaii, other people say site is sacred, and the entire discussion has been dipped in the "But America colonized Hawaii" baggage.

Me personally "OMG WHITE PEOPOLES WITH THEIR COLONIALISM!" isn't enough for me to shift allegiance in the ongoing battle between "Advance our understanding of the universe with science by building new tools" and "BUT MAGIC MAN IN THE SKY SAY MOUNTAIN IN SPECIAL!"

I guess the question is, how would you feel if someone took over the US and decided that they wanted to bulldoze the Statue of Liberty to put up a telescope, fill in the Grand Canyon to install a particle accelerator, and blow up Mouth Rushmore for a spaceport. Trampling all over others' beliefs and traditions just because Science is not the way to do things.

 

[applecorped]

Welcome to 2019, Stay Awhile

 

[Travis]

I guess the question is, how would you feel if someone took over the US and decided that they wanted to bulldoze the Statue of Liberty to put up a telescope, fill in the Grand Canyon to install a particle accelerator, and blow up Mouth Rushmore for a spaceport. Trampling all over others' beliefs and traditions just because Science is not the way to do things.

There are a lot of good reasons why Mauna Kea is the optimal place for this particular super important science instrument. Which is why there are already a dozen telescopes of various kinds on top of the mountain. Which is part of why I have little sympathy for their protests, they've been building telescopes up there for decades but suddenly this one telescope is the one that defiles it? How so?


Anyways, if someone can explain why the Statue of Liberty is an important location for a science instrument and I'll personally push the button to implode it.



I do, however, feel that there is a bit of a bad colonizer vibe to all this though. I think the telescope is super important but having it built in such a way that so many historically repressed people are basically bullied? That does leave a bad taste in my mouth. As such I do think that other locations should be vigorously scouted for and my understanding is that they did do a broad search already but.....crap I don't know.

 

[3point14]

I guess the question is, how would you feel if someone took over the US and decided that they wanted to bulldoze the Statue of Liberty to put up a telescope, fill in the Grand Canyon to install a particle accelerator, and blow up Mouth Rushmore for a spaceport. Trampling all over others' beliefs and traditions just because Science is not the way to do things.

Imagine if someone defaced Mount Rushmore! Outrageous...

 

[The Norseman]

I'm curious what other people think about this whole controversy.

Long story short some people want to build a telescope on a site in Hawaii, other people say site is sacred, and the entire discussion has been dipped in the "But America colonized Hawaii" baggage.

Me personally "OMG WHITE PEOPOLES WITH THEIR COLONIALISM!" isn't enough for me to shift allegiance in the ongoing battle between "Advance our understanding of the universe with science by building new tools" and "BUT MAGIC MAN IN THE SKY SAY MOUNTAIN IN SPECIAL!"

I commend you on perfectly encapsulating the precise excuse used by imperialists everywhere at every time used for bullying and stealing and enslaving another peoples.

Did it just not occur to you that other humans have some inherent worth and value just by being human and they don't owe you or anyone else any good goddamn reason for their wanting to have some control over their own immediate environment; especially one which was stolen from them and is being kept from them to this day?

I'm as anti-theism as the next guy but your arrogant mocking of a people BUH BUH BUH MAH MAGIC SKY DADDY SAID SO I thought should be beneath your dignity.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

It's an interesting topic. I find I side with the telescope. The objections are phrased on religious grounds, but they boil down to a claim of ownership. There's no particular practice or ritual that this particular telescope would disturb, it's purely symbolic. They are claiming the entire mountain.

I'm sure there's plenty of case law regarding mainland churches objecting to government development of local property, and I doubt it's sided with the churches very often, especially when the church doesn't actually own the land being developed, beliefs notwithstanding.

 

[pgwenthold]

It's an interesting topic. I find I side with the telescope. The objections are phrased on religious grounds, but they boil down to a claim of ownership. There's no particular practice or ritual that this particular telescope would disturb, it's purely symbolic. They are claiming the entire mountain.

Yeah, I know what you mean. It's like, they are only descendants to the natives of the land, where do they get off claiming ownership of it?

 

[Pterodactyl]

I commend you on perfectly encapsulating the precise excuse used by imperialists everywhere at every time used for bullying and stealing and enslaving another peoples.

Did it just not occur to you that other humans have some inherent worth and value just by being human and they don't owe you or anyone else any good goddamn reason for their wanting to have some control over their own immediate environment; especially one which was stolen from them and is being kept from them to this day?

I'm as anti-theism as the next guy but your arrogant mocking of a people BUH BUH BUH MAH MAGIC SKY DADDY SAID SO I thought should be beneath your dignity.

Replace mountain with stem cell research or replacing creationism with evolution in textbooks and see how that argument holds up.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

Yeah, I know what you mean. It's like, they are only descendants to the natives of the land, where do they get off claiming ownership of it?

Same place everyone else does. Best case scenario for them, the government files for eminent domain and does it anyway.

[ETA] I should emphasize the word "best." This protest is intertwined with a Hawaiian separatist movement, with simple racism at its core. Exactly as you say, only descendants to the natives of the land. They could make a lot of hay out of a little validation.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Same place everyone else does. Best case scenario for them, the government files for eminent domain and does it anyway.

Cause as we all know, taking land off of the Natives and giving it to the white man is pretty much Colonialist 101, right....

 

[Beelzebuddy]

Cause as we all know, taking land off of the Natives and giving it to the white man is pretty much Colonialist 101, right....

Which I'm sympathetic to, but that's not the stated goal of the protest. They're claiming ownership on grounds of religious infringement. Whether they have a claim to the mountain or not, it doesn't infringe their religion.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I'd have to know more about it before venturing an opinion. Does anyone have a link to an article that fairly represents the arguments on both sides?

 

[JoeMorgue]

So am I going to get a reason I should side with magical thinking instead of scientific thinking that isn't based on white guilt?

How is this functionally different from "NO DON'T TOUCH THOSE STEM CELLS IT MAKES THE BABY JESUS CRY!?" Please note that "Well you see white evangelists are here and native Hawaiians are here on the 'Official Victim Ranking Chart'" is not a functional difference.

Religious dogma doesn't become a good thing when it's hippie Earth magic nonsense coming from non-white people.

 

[plague311]

I'd have to know more about it before venturing an opinion. Does anyone have a link to an article that fairly represents the arguments on both sides?

I used Wikipedia but a few things that stuck out to me:

Mauna Kea is the most sacred mountain in Hawaiian culture. The mountain is also conservation land held in trust by the state of Hawaii.

So it's not really just a run-of-the-mill mountain. It is literally the most sacred mountain they have in their culture. Wikipedia doesn't really mention "sky daddy" or religion, just their culture. Which I suppose religion can be apart of.

This has been going on since 2015 apparently. It appears the permit that they got to build the scope was overturned by the Hawaii Supreme Court in 2015, and the people building the telescope didn't press any further.

On December 2, 2015, the Supreme Court of Hawaii invalidated the TMT's building permits

But:

A revised permit was approved on September 28, 2017 by the Hawaii Board of Land and Natural Resources. On October 30, 2018, the Supreme Court of Hawaii ruled, 4-1, that the revised permit was acceptable and construction may proceed.

It looks like those building the telescope have been open to listening to the community, have followed the letter of the law, and have done everything asked of them.

I would say let them build the scope, though I say it with a groan because I believe the people should have the final say. In this case, I would have liked to see it go to a public vote.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Yeah, I know what you mean. It's like, they are only descendants to the natives of the land, where do they get off claiming ownership of it?

Absolutely nowhere.

"People like me used to live here" is meaningless nonsense.

 

[Belz...]

Me personally "OMG WHITE PEOPOLES WITH THEIR COLONIALISM!" isn't enough for me to shift allegiance in the ongoing battle between "Advance our understanding of the universe with science by building new tools" and "BUT MAGIC MAN IN THE SKY SAY MOUNTAIN IN SPECIAL!"

Someone who thinks "magic man in the sky say mountain is special" probably isn't very interested in advancing our understanding of the universe.

 

[theprestige]

Cause as we all know, taking land off of the Natives and giving it to the white man is pretty much Colonialist 101, right....

Colonialism isn't a white people thing. Such bigoted language doesn't help your argument.

 

[Belz...]

I commend you on perfectly encapsulating the precise excuse used by imperialists everywhere at every time used for bullying and stealing and enslaving another peoples.

Did it just not occur to you that other humans have some inherent worth (snip)

Dude, they're building a telescope, not bringing back segregation.