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The Hawaii 30 Meter Telescope Controversy

But that is exactly the basis of the existence of most countries and nations throughout the world. "People like me used to live here, as did their children, and their children's children...all the way until they got to me. And my children will own it when I am dead." In some cases, like Israel, there are long breaks in the middle part, yet Israelis nonetheless believe that they own the land they are on because "people like me used to live here." So agree or not with the legitimacy of this concept, it appears to be the approach that underlies most of how people have assigned geography.

And that's working out pretty well for everyone involved, eh?

I'm not a big fan of sacred dirt. It gets everyone all riled up over nothing.

I had thought that there were environmental issues involved with the telescope and/or its construction on Mauna Kea. I'm very sympathetic to those concerns, but "sacred land?" Meh.

As for "ownership", we can't go back an right every wrong in history and find an original owner or their descendants and give things back. Yes, white people took over the Hawaiian Islands. It happened a long time ago. Somewhere in the intervening century plus, a legal framework was worked out where people born there had full rights, and they can move anywhere in the US, and anyone in the US can move there, and somewhere there's an elected government that gets to decide on building permits. I don't feel like giving some special veto power to people with a particular sort of DNA.
 
I think that basing land use policies on "our ancestors saw that big mountain and decided it was sacred and therefore never did anything with it but look" is pretty dumb. It would be one thing if a mining company was going to blow the top of the thing to get at its gooey mineral center or if somebody was going to knock down an ancient temple. Building a 90-foot telescope in order to study outer space (which I'll bet the Hawaiian ancestors also found sacred) should be something anyone can appreciate...maybe give the protestors the naming rights?
 
Well that's another one of the elephants in the room, even if we allow the playing of the "But that's sacred card!" if your concept of "sacred" includes a concept as broad and nebulous as "nature" you aren't going to get to play for everything you consider sacred.
 
It's not a SCIENCE vs RELIGION issue at all. It's a land use dispute, and legal remedies for those have existed forever. Let a court determine who owns the damn mountain, or parts of the mountain. Then what's done there is up to those owners, whether they're building telescopes or apiaries or strip clubs or nature preserves for paralytic turtles.
It's superstition vs. science.

Superstition...which has provided mankind with...what, exactly, that we should celebrate?

Science...which has improved mankind's living standards by a major magnitude.

Superstition...known for the Dark Ages. Life was nasty, brutish, and short.

Science...conquered smallpox, famine, and went to the moon. And beyond.
 
Well that's another one of the elephants in the room, even if we allow the playing of the "But that's sacred card!" if your concept of "sacred" includes a concept as broad and nebulous as "nature" you aren't going to get to play for everything you consider sacred.

On the other hand,
- there's not much Hawaii to go around,
- it's mostly been taken away from the natives,
- a lot of it has already been developed and repurposed without concern for its sanctity in the eyes of the native community, and
- this particular bit of nature has been called out as being particularly important.
 
- it's mostly been taken away from the natives,

I unequivocally, whole heartily, and completely reject the base concept of a "native."

A white person born on Hawaii a week ago Thursday and a "Native Hawaiian" who can trace his ancestry back to the original Polynesian settlers who landed five hundred years born a week ago Thursday have exactly equal claims and right to live on the island.

You are not your ancestors. You are you. Period.
 
When the law and society actually treat each individual the same, rather than paying lip service to equality and treating individuals differently based on their ancestry, your rant will gain relevance.
 
It's an interesting topic. I find I side with the telescope. The objections are phrased on religious grounds, but they boil down to a claim of ownership. There's no particular practice or ritual that this particular telescope would disturb, it's purely symbolic. They are claiming the entire mountain.

Yeah, we had a similar problem with some of the extremists in our local indigenous population. There exists in New Zealand a small core group of Maori (a small minority within Maori it self) who are nothing more than opportunists. They want special privileges and special consideration, calling themselves "native" to New Zealand, even though in fact they are no more native to these Islands than the Europeans who came here 400 years after they did. They make all kinds of outrageous claims, for example

► they claim exclusive ownership of the coastal waters of New Zealand, and all the fish and resources in the sea.

► they claim ownership of radio waves and the radio frequency spectrum, despite the fact that radio wasn't even invented for a hundred years after European colonization,

► they claim ownership of the airspace and the space above New Zealand. Some of them even tried to send NASA a bill for satellites that pass over New Zealand!

► they claim to own the wind as well, now that there is money to be made from wind power generation.

Finally, they claim ownership of all the water in our rivers and lakes, and all the water that falls out of the sky. At one point we had some Maori "kaumatua" (a sort of tribal chief/elder statesman) claiming that all the water in New Zealand belonged to Maori, that they alone were responsible for its management, and that the white people should pay Maori for every drop they used for anything; drinking, irrigation, manufacturing, even the local car wash.

Well, I for one, would be quite happy to accept their claim to ownership of the rivers, lakes, the water that falls from the sky, and the wind, provided that they are prepared to underwrite and pay all the costs of the damage done when their winds causes storm damage, when their rain causes flooding and causes rivers to burst their banks and flood millions of acres of farmland, and When that was pointed out to them, they dropped their claim to be responsible for its management, but they still said the water was theirs and they wanted the money.

In this case of the Hawaii telescope, I am very, very suspicious when these kinds of claims suddenly appear out of nowhere. Where were these claims back in the early-1960s when Gerard Kuiper first looked at Mauna Kea as a possible observatory site, or in 1967 when construction started?
 
It's superstition vs. science.

Superstition...which has provided mankind with...what, exactly, that we should celebrate?

Science...which has improved mankind's living standards by a major magnitude.

Superstition...known for the Dark Ages. Life was nasty, brutish, and short.

Science...conquered smallpox, famine, and went to the moon. And beyond.

If it's my land I'll do whatever I like with it. I'll erect a temple to Ba'al or a fried chicken palmistry school if I feel like it, regardless of what anybody else's theology or lack thereof says. You can do your science or your angel worship or your fried chicken crystal aerobic dentistry on your land.
 
Where were these claims back in the early-1960s when Gerard Kuiper first looked at Mauna Kea as a possible observatory site, or in 1967 when construction started?

"Cultural practitioners who say they stand in protection of Mauna Kea, as a sacred Native Hawaiian site, have been protesting telescope development on the mountain since it first began in the 1960s."

Apparently, people were opposed to it then, too (the above is one of several such claims I found within the five minutes I bothered looking, although, weirdly, none have specific details). If that's the case, I would assume no one heard about it because the people in charge of construction and media didn't particularly care.
 
I unequivocally, whole heartily, and completely reject the base concept of a "native."

A white person born on Hawaii a week ago Thursday and a "Native Hawaiian" who can trace his ancestry back to the original Polynesian settlers who landed five hundred years born a week ago Thursday have exactly equal claims and right to live on the island.

You are not your ancestors. You are you. Period.

People don't think it be like it is, but it do.
 
If it's my land I'll do whatever I like with it. I'll erect a temple to Ba'al or a fried chicken palmistry school if I feel like it, regardless of what anybody else's theology or lack thereof says. You can do your science or your angel worship or your fried chicken crystal aerobic dentistry on your land.

Fine (within reason) but you can't use your religion as the basis for your claim that the land is yours, either literally or figuratively.

"I own the land, here's the deed with my name own, now get out of my while I erect a giant Macaroni and Cheese sculpture of Frederick the Great" is fine.

"That mountain over there? Well a thousand years ago one of my ancestor's imaginary friends said it's a special mountain we're not allowed to touch" is not.
 
If it's my land I'll do whatever I like with it. I'll erect a temple to Ba'al or a fried chicken palmistry school if I feel like it, regardless of what anybody else's theology or lack thereof says. You can do your science or your angel worship or your fried chicken crystal aerobic dentistry on your land.

That trouble with that is these people believe in some spiritual woo woo fantasy that land ownership is not a right of individual mere mortals like you or I. They believe that the land is a shared spiritual entity granted by Magic Sky Daddy for the exclusive use of his loyal subjects. They don't recognize the authority that grants you legal title. They argue that you don't own the land, even if you think you do, even if you legally do, and even if you can show clear title.
 
"Cultural practitioners who say they stand in protection of Mauna Kea, as a sacred Native Hawaiian site, have been protesting telescope development on the mountain since it first began in the 1960s."

Apparently, people were opposed to it then, too (the above is one of several such claims I found within the five minutes I bothered looking, although, weirdly, none have specific details). If that's the case, I would assume no one heard about it because the people in charge of construction and media didn't particularly care.


Hmmmm... a 2019 article claiming there were protests in the 1960's? Sorry, not buying it. When someone can show me contemporaneous 1960's articles about the protests; for example, from physical newspaper archives, then I will find those claims more acceptable.


ETA: If the article had quoted a legitimate source they had researched, one that confirmed there were anti-telescope protests in the 1960's, I would find that acceptable, but just taking the word of contemporary protesters is not good enough.
 
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That trouble with that is these people believe in some spiritual woo woo fantasy that land ownership is not a right of individual mere mortals like you or I. They believe that the land is a shared spiritual entity granted by Magic Sky Daddy for the exclusive use of his loyal subjects. They don't recognize the authority that grants you legal title. They argue that you don't own the land, even if you think you do, even if you legally do, and even if you can show clear title.

Problem is knee jerk reactions on these issues before getting all the facts..which we have seen some in this thread.
Many have a knee jerk reaction to side with the "oppressed native peoples" automatically, without getting all the facts, because it fits their world view.
I think they assumed the land was being taken from Native Hawaiins when in fact it has been owned by the US Government for nearly a hundred years.

Apparently, some of the leaders of the protesters want to secede from the US and restablish the Kingdom of Hawaii.

Good luck with that, since a large majority of the people of Hawaii are not of Polynesian descent.

Who knows, maybe some of the extreme Maori leaders you were talking about were giving advice to their cousins in Hawaii on this.

Look, no one is denying that indigiunous people were screwed over badly after the coming of the Europeans. But you can't go back and change history.


Another example are a few people here who support giving the Black Hills in South Dakota back to the Sioux, despite the fact that would involve uprooting around half a million people. Just is not going to happen.
 
If it's my land I'll do whatever I like with it. I'll erect a temple to Ba'al or a fried chicken palmistry school if I feel like it, regardless of what anybody else's theology or lack thereof says. You can do your science or your angel worship or your fried chicken crystal aerobic dentistry on your land.
This land is your land, this land is my land...
 

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