TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
On humans, faces and heads are natural. They no more belong on mountains than a giant bolder covered in alpine moss belongs on a human neck.
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The Hawaii 30 Meter Telescope Controversy
- Thread starter JoeMorgue
- Start date
On humans, faces and heads are natural. They no more belong on mountains than a giant bolder covered in alpine moss belongs on a human neck.
Regnad Kcin
Penultimate Amazing
Good catch.
Beelzebuddy
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2010
- Messages
- 10,922
Warren recently published an exhaustive plan on these sorts of issues. Teal deer: concrete infrastructure investments, education and justice reform.
By current interpretation, the State of Hawaii owns the land. Presumably representing the citizens of the State. 1.4 million of them. So let's say the question is up to the owners. But the problem is that there are a lot of owners (1.4 million) and they disagree what to do.
Fortunately being a representative democracy (in theory) the State has a process (through legislatures, courts, and the executive branches of government) to derive what we as a society hope is a fair consensus/compromise decision in this sort of situation. However in this case this process has yielded different decisions, with courts/ legislatures etc. having made different rulings at different times. The last (I hesitate to call it the final) decision from this political process says build it. Okay, I like 30 meter telescopes a lot. But I still have trouble believing this decision was entirely fair. I think it is yet again another example of native Hawaiian culture being screwed over, something very easy to believe if you read the history of the Island. It pricks at my conscience and I would have hoped for a better compromise.
Ah, one might say, that is how a democracy works! Assuming that we all trust the political process to always and accurately represent the wishes of its citizens (raise you hands everyone who does - don't be shy) then I bring up the rights of the minorities issue. Native Hawaiians are a minority even in Hawaii, let along in the USA as a whole. They became a minority on their own Island when mainland monetary and religious interests subverted their existing government and their society, annexed the Islands to the USA through imposed statehood, and the native Hawaiians have had their desires rolled over for a long time since.
To me it is not an issue of science vs religion; it is an issue of science vs conscience. My conscience is uneasy.
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The more I read the less clear it is to me that the State of Hawaii has the legal right to claim ownership of the Mauna Kea summit, let alone the moral right to do so. Yet different issues apply to the access road. One interpretation: "Mauna Kea is part of the Crown Lands—lands of the Monarchy prior to the 1893 overthrow of the Monarchy. Under the Hawai’i Constitution, Mauna Kea, like all Ceded Lands (which included the former Crown Lands), is held in trust by the State and managed for the benefit of the Native Hawaiian people and the public... The state says the road is under the jurisdiction of the Hawaiʻi Department of Transportation after being transferred to the state, but the true ownership of the road has been questioned by Hawaiian Home Lands beneficiaries for some time, who know that there are strict procedures, and usually consultations, for transferring trust lands out of the Hawaiian Homes inventory." https://www.bigislandvideonews.com/2019/08/14/video-who-owns-mauna-kea-access-road/
Sure, legal rights are determined by legislation, courts, and executive regulations. They say the road and the summits are the State's. But darn, I have trouble accepting that these determinations always truly reflect the actual law. Sometimes I have a little tiny suspicion that money and power can influence.... Well, I'm just being silly here.
As I first posted, the OP is not a simple slam-dunk as to who is right. I see both sides as having legitimate arguments.
Sure, legal rights are determined by legislation, courts, and executive regulations. They say the road and the summits are the State's. But darn, I have trouble accepting that these determinations always truly reflect the actual law. Sometimes I have a little tiny suspicion that money and power can influence.... Well, I'm just being silly here.
As I first posted, the OP is not a simple slam-dunk as to who is right. I see both sides as having legitimate arguments.
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"Native Hawaiians" aren't a valid categorization. You don't get more rights then me because your parents were born in the same place you were born and mine weren't.
Do we have to stop using stem cells or teaching evolution in states where the majority of people who's parents where born there think they make the baby Jesus cry? Outside of "White people bad because of colonialism" I still haven't gotten a valid answer to why I'm supposed to approach this particular scenario differently.
Again watching progressives fall over each other to defend what is essentially religious dogma demanding we don't do science backed up by demands for racial purity, which is all this, is telling.
This is a group of people telling us not to do something because their God(s) say so, and that we don't get to have an opinion about it because we're not the right race.
THAT'S NOT A GOOD THING. And doesn't become a good thing when brown people with a Notarized "Victim of evil white people" membership card do it.
Do we have to stop using stem cells or teaching evolution in states where the majority of people who's parents where born there think they make the baby Jesus cry? Outside of "White people bad because of colonialism" I still haven't gotten a valid answer to why I'm supposed to approach this particular scenario differently.
Again watching progressives fall over each other to defend what is essentially religious dogma demanding we don't do science backed up by demands for racial purity, which is all this, is telling.
This is a group of people telling us not to do something because their God(s) say so, and that we don't get to have an opinion about it because we're not the right race.
THAT'S NOT A GOOD THING. And doesn't become a good thing when brown people with a Notarized "Victim of evil white people" membership card do it.
I am having trouble finding this out: how close will the 30M telescope be to the existing telescopes on Mauna Kea? I know that the exact locations of the pre-existing instruments was a compromise with Native Hawaiians when these telescopes were first built. Is part of the current problem that the 30M will be sited significantly outside of this pre-exisiting footprint?
I've already explained this is more accurately seen as a cultural issue, not a religious one. I am not giving their religious belief any credit: I am only expressing a desire to have a decision that works better with their sense of identity and culture, not their religion. In fact I suspect they are playing the religious card per se because it is perceived to be a politically powerful strategy in the USA. There are court decisions and legislation based on it, and the Republicans spend endless words pushing it as a concept. Of course the Native Hawaiians failed because only rightwing Christianity is permitted to play that card in the USA.
Further the comparison to stem cell research is not fair: stem cell research has and will continue to directly help save people's lives. The 30M telescope is a more purely intellectual endeavor. I like purely intellectual endeavors; even though I do biomedical research much of it is very basic and a purely intellectual endeavor. And I am well aware of how basic research, even in astronomy, can have very important practical outcomes. But please, we are not talking about research on Mauna Kea that will be saving children''s lives in the next 5 years. No need to ramp up the emotional rheostat.
Nor am I claiming that Native Hawaiians (and it is silly to pretend that there are no such people, people who share all or parts of a culture that goes back thousands of years and identify as such) have more rights than you or I. I am only claiming that they have the same rights as do we, including the right to have the larger society try as much as possible to respect their views when reaching a decision that involves the society as a whole. Not that they preempt it.
I really urge people to read a bit on the history of Hawaii and its annexation by mainland religious and monetary interests. It is difficult to learn of this history without being at least moderately outraged.
Okay, we don't have a time machine and can't fix that all now. But we can be extra careful to try to be fair to all from this point on.
Okay, we don't have a time machine and can't fix that all now. But we can be extra careful to try to be fair to all from this point on.
pipelineaudio
Philosopher
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2006
- Messages
- 5,092
And what's fair is to keep on exploring space, somethign the majority of us Hawaiians want, and only opposed by some anti-vax, anti-gmo, kooks from portland, seattle and sanfran who constantly whip up a population of the locals with their latest conspiracy theories (google some of these protesters and enjoy the hilarity of the entire catalog of MLM companies they push, or better yet, the real estate scams they've been involved in)
We're paying a very high price, especially on maui for the last time these douches came here and piled on the anti-vax
Now neither the local or federal government will enforce the laws and round these terrorists up. We're finally getting some relief from the FBI in the last few days as these thugs threatened mass shootings and then posted it to social media.
We are the dumbest state of the union, only once in a while tying in some categories with Mississippi. Way too many of the dumbest have WAY WAY WAY too many kids. hawaii needs education like you wouldn't believe. Forget the hotel brochures, it is truly third world for most of the population here, and there is a subculture extremely proud of its ignorance, and more than happy and willing to use violence to fight against education, this is just the latest.
Is this a country of laws or isn't it?
Yes annexation sort of sucked for some rich hawaiians. That was a long time ago.
We're paying a very high price, especially on maui for the last time these douches came here and piled on the anti-vax
Now neither the local or federal government will enforce the laws and round these terrorists up. We're finally getting some relief from the FBI in the last few days as these thugs threatened mass shootings and then posted it to social media.
We are the dumbest state of the union, only once in a while tying in some categories with Mississippi. Way too many of the dumbest have WAY WAY WAY too many kids. hawaii needs education like you wouldn't believe. Forget the hotel brochures, it is truly third world for most of the population here, and there is a subculture extremely proud of its ignorance, and more than happy and willing to use violence to fight against education, this is just the latest.
Is this a country of laws or isn't it?
Yes annexation sort of sucked for some rich hawaiians. That was a long time ago.