The Gospel

[articulett]

Speaking for KK, again:

Moral relativism. Drinking, dancing, playing cards, and music have been used to spread distrust, hatred, and murder throughout human history.

John Frum encourages sinful, distructive behavior.

I win.

Nope--Christianity has killed more people than John Frumists--

I win.

 

[articulett]

I'm playing devil's advocate by supporting KK . . . . . .

That IS funny (hopefully, Kathy won't go to hell because you are taking satans side--ha!)

I think Wolfgirl was just trying to show how all religions manipulate their people--they make you NEED them...you suffer ostracization for doubt--you get "high" off group spirit--you reaffirm eachother again and again--bad things happen to non-believers--rewards come to the most faithful (gods' favorites)--sacrifice for later rewards, don't question "god", etc. etc. Religions survive by making you too scared or stupid to question them--or too needy of them--the successful ones BECOME your social life and encourage fecundity of it's members (they're so much more malleable when they're kids).

They all exploit the concept of "souls" and "afterlives". Maybe it kind of plays on human greed--you want to earn enough "heaven points" to live in paradise for eternity.

(It just sucks for the rest of us because dieties seem to encourage proselytizing--)

On the other hand, they do amuse--and if they come by this site, I consider them fodder for comeback practice

 

[RandFan]

...but my point was simply that nature is very excessive and wasteful on a grand scale--

I want you to know that I'm doing my part to support nature's wastefulness...well, not right now...

TMI?

 

[RandFan]

(It just sucks for the rest of us because dieties seem to encourage proselytizing--)

It's a fluke (see Dennett).

 

[articulett]

Actually, numerically, Christianity is indeed the majority religion on earth. But that's all branches lumped in together, and the differences between some species of Christianity are sufficiently vast that calling them the same religion is gettin' a little shaky (at least if you want to base your notion of a "true religion" on it!) For example, Mormons and Roman Catholics and Southern Baptists and Christian Scientists are all lumped in together, so does our hypothetical true religion include confession, Joseph Smith, funny underwear, snake handling and not getting blood transfusions?

Whether the largest slice of the Christian pie--probably Catholicism--outnumbers the next runner up, Islam, I don't know.


http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

As a former Catholic...let me include some more rituals to include under the umbrella--transubstantiation (communion becomes Jesus), the blessed trinity (father, son, and Holy Ghost) assorted saints, a special place for Mary, and infallible Pope (Mormons have an infallible prophet)

It's silly to count them under the same umbrella--they don't even agree among themeselves regarding who is a christian...really the only thing they have in common is Jesus has god status. Their god is really 2 gods (3-in-1 if you are Catholic.). Theists do somethine similar to argue for theism over atheism--they point out all the people who ever believed in some god or other as if they are all the same when the only thing they have in common is a belief that invisible entities influence human lives (gods, demons, thetens, souls, etc.) To me it's like saying "all these people believe in the supernatural to some extent so there must be something to it..."

I point out that billions of people thought the world was flat; It was an illusion.

When you start asking questions it becomes clear that most people don't really have any idea what they believe.

That's fine, but it's not fine on a critical thinking forum.

 

[articulett]

Yeah yeah. Build a little birdhouse in your soul. Heard it all before. Still not evidence.

When nuns told be that "god" was everywhere, I asked if he was in my rectum.

I was serious, but she was angry. As an adult, I think I had been preternaturally astute--because god (and all the crap people told me about him (them?) ended up being a big painin the a$$

There are just some places that you don't want ghosts to be prodding around in, you know what I mean?

 

[articulett]

It's a fluke (see Dennett).

Ha! I'm reading him. Were you at TAM4?

 

[articulett]

I want you to know that I'm doing my part to support nature's wastefulness...well, not right now...

TMI?

nope. 'glad to know you're making up for the years when you were afraid the devil ruled the waters.

I hadn't heard that one...all waters? Did you ever wear garments? Michael Shermer said he wanted to get some... When you give soda (uncaffeinated) two the boys on bikes, do you tell them you were Mormon...does the conversation ever go anywhere from there? How did you become an apostate--was in sudden? Don't you feel a tremendous relief? I know I do (former Catholic).

 

[kmortis]

Yeah yeah. Build a little birdhouse in your soul. Heard it all before. Still not evidence.

Birdhouse in your Soul
They Migh Be Giants
Flood 1990

I'm your only friend
I'm not your only friend
But I'm a little glowing friend
But really I'm not actually your friend
But I am

Blue canary in the outlet by the light switch
Who watches over you
Make a little birdhouse in your soul
Not to put too fine a point on it
Say I'm the only bee in your bonnet
Make a little birdhouse in your soul

I have a secret to tell
From my electrical well
It's a simple message and I'm leaving out the whistles and bells
So the room must listen to me
Filibuster vigilantly
My name is blue canary one note* spelled l-i-t-e
My story's infinite
Like the Longines Symphonette it doesn't rest

Blue canary in the outlet by the light switch
Who watches over you
Make a little birdhouse in your soul
Not to put too fine a point on it
Say I'm the only bee in your bonnet
Make a little birdhouse in your soul

I'm your only friend
I'm not your only friend
But I'm a little glowing friend
But really I'm not actually your friend
But I am

There's a picture opposite me
Of my primitive ancestry
Which stood on rocky shores and kept the beaches shipwreck free
Though I respect that a lot
I'd be fired if that were my job
After killing Jason off and countless screaming Argonauts
Bluebird of friendliness
Like guardian angels its always near

Blue canary in the outlet by the light switch
Who watches over you
Make a little birdhouse in your soul
Not to put too fine a point on it
Say I'm the only bee in your bonnet
Make a little birdhouse in your soul

(and while you're at it
Keep the nightlight on inside the
Birdhouse in your soul)

Not to put too fine a point on it
Say I'm the only bee in your bonnet
Make a little birdhouse in your soul

Blue canary in the outlet by the light switch (and while you're at it)
Who watches over you (keep the nightlight on inside the)
Make a little birdhouse in your soul (birdhouse in your soul)

Not to put too fine a point on it
Say I'm the only bee in your bonnet
Make a little birdhouse in your soul

Blue canary in the outlet by the light switch (and while you're at it)
Who watches over you (keep the nightlight on inside the)
Make a little birdhouse in your soul (birdhouse in your soul)

Not to put too fine a point on it
Say I'm the only bee in your bonnet
Make a little birdhouse in your soul

 

[sackett]

...1 Corinthians 3:16-17
Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are....

1 Corinthians 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

Kathy, what translation of the N. Testament are you using? If you MUST quote this stuff, can't you at least use the grand old language of the King James Bible?

If you're going to preach, do it thunderingly, not whimpering out this lifeless pap.

 

[sackett]

SuperCoolGuy:

A clarification I should have made the first time around: I try always to use the word “cult” in a neutral, anthropological sense, viz., to denote any community of worshippers. In modern English usage, especially in the U.S., cult has disparaging, even disapproving connotations, and that’s unfortunate.

However, your discussion is a good one if we employ the word in the latter way. I particularly take your point about the difference between Islamic practice in America and in Afghanistan.

The hobby-horse that I’m riding here – Excuse me, the point I wish to make, is that Cargo, seen from the outside, is no different than any other religion. And yet it’s based on assumptions – the miraculous origin of canned beef and outboard motors – that we know absolutely to be false. I contend, looking at Cargo worshippers and their sincere devotion, that the assumptions underlying any religion, even if they’re buried beyond reach in remote antiquity, are just as likely to be false. The sincerity of its believers does nothing to bolster the truth of a religion.

In a way, I can grudgingly respect (at the same time that I pity) the Frumists. Their religion, appalingly crude as it is, rests in some part on things that are really, truly real: canned beef, shovels and hoes, boat motors, jeeps, flashlight batteries, and America.

 

[Nex]

Well it is definite that I have had an encounter with my creator which many of you choose not to believe. However it would be impossible for any of you to prove that I didn't.

Quite true, it would be. But naughty you, trying to shift that annoying burden of proof onto us. It's your responsibility to prove your positive claim, you know.

However, with some evidence it would only take a minute to prove us wrong.

Evidence. Got any?


...


Eh, who'm I kidding? We won't see anything but more bible quotes and anecdotes. Which, btw, aren't evidence of anything except prattle, Kathy.

It's time for (non-hotlinked) kittens!

 

[wolfgirl]

And because of this encounter my life has made a complete u-turn for the better. God has done and is doing things in my life because I have chose to believe Him. Until one gets to a place in their heart where they might be empty or open to hear from God, it seems to me nothing changes. I am here to tell you I am not the same person I use to be. Jesus has and is changing me!

To which, I'm afraid, I must quote myself:

I was once unhappy and lost, not knowing where I was going or what to do. I was making so many bad decisions in my life that were just leading me down a spiral of self-destruction. It was me, though, and nobody else that finally realized where I was going wrong and how to get out of it. It was a long, difficult and painful struggle, but I was able to fix my life, and now I live what I consider to be a very happy existence - happily married (very happily), great friends, good job, excellent health, relatively good finances, lots of fun things, etc.

If I were you, kk, I might say that God had done all of these things for me. But I never asked for any divine help, never felt any divine inspiration, never experienced any sort of revelation from above. I simply - I don't know - grew up, I guess. Realized I had to settle down and make better choices. Plan for the future. See the big picture. It happens to people all the time, christian and non-christian alike.

So you can choose to give credit for your achievements to someone else or take the credit yourself. Myself, I'm proud of what I've accomplished and not about to share the credit!

If nothing changes unless you accept Jesus, how did I change? How do millions of people who don't accept Jesus change? People change all the time, not just christians. Just because you had to have an imaginary friend to affect the change in yourself, doesn't mean that everybody does!

 

[SuperCoolGuy]

The hobby-horse that I’m riding here – Excuse me, the point I wish to make, is that Cargo, seen from the outside, is no different than any other religion. And yet it’s based on assumptions – the miraculous origin of canned beef and outboard motors – that we know absolutely to be false. I contend, looking at Cargo worshippers and their sincere devotion, that the assumptions underlying any religion, even if they’re buried beyond reach in remote antiquity, are just as likely to be false. The sincerity of its believers does nothing to bolster the truth of a religion.

Having finally read the article you linked, I now understand what you were getting at.

I wonder if the more religions one learns about, the less belief they have in their own? There are some glaring similarities between Christianity and Frumism that really call in to question human tendencies to bestow qualities and aspects on popular or influential people, making them prophets and gurus and hoping for their "inevitable" return to make things right again and to prove to all the naysayers that their beliefs are in the real thing.

Look at Babe Ruth. Did he really point to where he would hit his eventual home run?

Look at Elvis Presley. Is it really that hard to accept that the guy died?

 

[sackett]

KK isn't following one word of this, but what the heck

Cargo is termed a “contact cult” by anthropologists. Religions of this general type are seen to spring up just about anywhere a simpler way of life collides with a more complex one; I’m told that there are African and New World equivalents. (The Plains Indians’ pathetic Ghost Dance movement of the 1890’s comes to mind; like the Frumists and other Melanesian believers, their gospel included a cataclysmic sweeping away of the whites. Well, you can see why.)

Not surprisingly, Frumism incorporates Christian elements (those poor people were under the heavy thumbs of missionaries for many years), so the appearance of the miraculous savior may be a cultural borrowing – or it may not. I don’t know anything that would contradict your surmise about “human tendencies to bestow qualities and aspects on popular or influential people, making them prophets and gurus.” The Big Man is a Melanesian institution, and part of being a Big Man is the possession of heap plenty juju – mana, power, magical prowess. No reason, given that sort of world-view, to doubt that John Frum lives in a volcano and commutes to America through a secret passageway. Hey, you can’t prove he doesn’t!

Some anthropologists surmise that all religions are contact cults. I wouldn’t go so far as to characterize all religious belief as Cargo, for one good reason:

I don’t want ceo-esq to land on me four-footed demanding definitions.

 

[supercorgi]

I wonder if the more religions one learns about, the less belief they have in their own? There are some glaring similarities between Christianity and Frumism that really call in to question human tendencies to bestow qualities and aspects on popular or influential people, making them prophets and gurus and hoping for their "inevitable" return to make things right again and to prove to all the naysayers that their beliefs are in the real thing.

I think that the study of other religions around the world and how they work in societies, does definately make you question your own beliefs. I know my study of anthropology was the final nail in the coffin in my belief in a diety. With all these different religions claiming to be the one true faith surely they can't all be -- therefore, why should any of them be the one. Looking at the vast number of religious beliefs in the world, I think it's enormous hubris for any of them to claim to be the one true belief, especially when you strip away the specific trappings of religion, you find how they all are very similiar in their purpose and their function.

 

[Roadtoad]

Having said this before, and getting tired of repeating myself, I will say this once more:

Kathy: We require EVIDENCE ON THIS BOARD. This means something that can be tested, and is repeatable. So far, the only thing that you have shown us, through your behavior, is that your God, (not God), is not someone we would like to get to know. There's no reason to get to know your God, because his ways of drawing us to him do not include kindness or mercy, but vengeance and hate.

If we have you as an example to follow, there's less and less reason to follow your God.

Look at your actions, then tell me why I should listen to you.

Personally, I look at people like Fowlsound, and realize that's someone I would rather follow. (Not that I would, but given that he, Chasing 23, Lost Angeles, Hutch, Suezoled, Terry, and a whole host of others behave mercifully, kindly, honorably, I'm more inclined to follow them than I would you.)

 

[Dr Adequate]

Cargo is termed a “contact cult” by anthropologists. Religions of this general type are seen to spring up just about anywhere a simpler way of life collides with a more complex one.

The Roman Empire ... ?

I wonder if the cargo cultists will wait 2000 years for John Frum?

"Any day now ..."

 

[UrsulaV]

If you're going to preach, do it thunderingly, not whimpering out this lifeless pap.

Hear, hear! I may not much care for religion as truth, but I respect it as art. There's a certain swaggering panache to the real good hellfire 'n brimstone preaching that I admire on the aesthetic level, even as I believe it's desperately morally bankrupt.

I had this professor in college who'd been a Southern Baptist preacher before he had a crisis of faith and wound up teaching African American Religious Traditions in the frozen north. It was a class badly placed, right after lunch, and I would normally have been nodding, but every now and then he'd get on a roll, and since he'd only learned the one speaking style, he'd shift into high gear and you'd find yourself wanting to yell "Amen!" or "Hallelujah!" at the end of every sentence (which got increasingly surreal as we worked our way through the history of voudoun...)

 

[articulett]

Kathy: We require EVIDENCE ON THIS BOARD. This means something that can be tested, and is repeatable. So far, the only thing that you have shown us, through your behavior, is that your God, (not God), is not someone we would like to get to know.

Roadtoad,
The Evidence is before you and it is this:

Religion makes you stupid and if you seep your brain in it too long you will be impervious to logic.

Click up your heals that you are not infectd with this meme, and remember, "There, but for the sake of godlessness, go I."