The Gospel

Oh... and just a quick side note...

I am well aware of the fact that there are more than a few conflicting stories revolving around whether or not Lucifer was in fact god's 2nd in command (as opposed to the angel Samyaza)... whether or not he and Satan are one and the same entity or two completely different entities... or that the term Lucifer was, in fact, a reference to the King of Babylon in Issah 14.

It just goes to show just how many inconsistancies and contradictions can come about when if comes to contemplating Christian mythology (or any other religion, for that matter):rolleyes:
 
You're going to learn how to build Marines?! If so, can you put a better brain in your future designs? :p

Delphi, that thunder you're hearing in the distance is the entire population of Parris Island running southward to have the honor of being the first Marine to kick your behind.

You know, they're not famous for having a sense of humor about comments made by civilians.

We'll make sure to throw you a proper wake after the carnage, though. Your legacy will live on in several days of drunken debauchery!:alc:
 
As far as remote parts of the world and other countries that don't hear the Gospel...There are many missionaries out there trying to get the word out!
But if they haven't reached someone yet, and that someone dies, they go to hell, right? How many thousands of adults die under such circumstances every day, do you suppose? All going to hell because the missionaries haven't made it to them yet. Nice god.

And I wish your precious missionaries would learn to just mind their own damn business, anyways. Who are they to tell other people what they must believe? It's such a xian arrogance that they always seem to have to be running around preaching to everyone, trying to get them to believe their fairy tale. Much like you are here, Kathy. Unwelcome and annoying.
 
Hey wolfgirl think about this one little bit of info...People have authored many different books, God only had to write one book. Men filled with the Holy Spirit were used in the process, but it is still the most popular, and the most unique book ever written.
The Bible still holds so much wisdom and understanding that many of us still refer to it for spiritual lessons that we can apply to our lives!
You tell me to think about something but don't really give me anything to think about.

God only had to write one book, you say. But if I don't believe he wrote it, either directly or indirectly, it doesn't lend anything to your argument. There is no way for you to convince me that the bible is anything more than the ramblings of some delusional people from a long time ago. I give it no more credence than I do another ancient text, the Iliad. I don't believe in your god any more than I believe in the gods in that book.

How much more clear can I (or any of us) make this? We don't believe in your god. We don't believe Jesus was the son of your god (or any other god). We don't believe in the bible. So quoting things from that bible or saying that it's full of wisdom means nothing to us.

You might as well quote any other book full of wisdom - The Art of War by Sun Tzu comes to mind. I don't believe Sun Tzu was a god, but his book has a lot of good info and advice in it, and people refer to it for guidance in their daily lives.

As for it being the most popular book, I hardly think that means anything. Britney Spears is pretty popular, too, but she's not really very holy, now, is she? Do you really want to make popularity the measure of how good or true or worthy something is?
 
Hey wolfgirl think about this one little bit of info...People have authored many different books, God only had to write one book. Men filled with the Holy Spirit were used in the process, but it is still the most popular, and the most unique book ever written.
The Bible still holds so much wisdom and understanding that many of us still refer to it for spiritual lessons that we can apply to our lives!
All I can say is I know we can trust in the Word of God!
Oh, it's like shooting fish in a barrel.

Hey wolfgirl think about this one little bit of info...People have authored many different books, Allah only had to write one book. A man visited by angels was used in the process, but it is still the most popular, and the most unique book ever written.
The Qur'aan still holds so much wisdom and understanding that many of us still refer to it for spiritual lessons that we can apply to our lives!
All I can say is I know we can trust in the Word of Allah!
Please explain why we should listen to kurious_kathy and not to kurious_karimah.
 
Delphi, that thunder you're hearing in the distance is the entire population of Parris Island running southward to have the honor of being the first Marine to kick your behind.
:jaw-dropp Uh oh!
Hmm... On second thought, I'll just hide in a library. They'll never look there! :D
You know, they're not famous for having a sense of humor about comments made by civilians.
In all seriousness, I do respect the Marines a lot. They've born the brunt of the fighting in almost every recent conflict I can think of. The bit about not being smart is not true at all. The ones I've known have been extremely impressive individuals. I joke because it's fun.
We'll make sure to throw you a proper wake after the carnage, though. Your legacy will live on in several days of drunken debauchery!:alc:
I hope Kathy is right about there being an afterlife, because I'd hate to miss that party!
 
So my question to many of you here would be if you were faced with the same choice on forgiving others...

First the son of the missionary dad who forgave the tribal leader for killing his dad, and Second the woman who forgave the drunk driver for killing her husband....

Would you want or even be able to on your own to to forgive these people? Or do you think you would stay angry the rest of your lives at those people who had a direct effect on your personal life falling apart?

Yes, I would be able to forgive in both cases. And for the record, I am not a Christian.

I've forgave the guy who sexually molested me when I was four. I've forgave the guy who killed my aunt.

The point is to have empathy. To see the other side. To consider the other person, their life, their experiences. To understand that humans are humans, and we all come from different places in life.

I believe in justice. I believe in forgiveness.

These principles are exactly what prevents me from accepting Christianity. To accept a free pass in to heaven with the understanding that billions of others will be tortured is, for me, repugnant and selfish.

I can appreciate the fact that you, kk, probably don't have much experience with moral individuals that have integrity and compassion and are NOT Christian. There isn't much that I can say to prove otherwise, I guess. We have led different lives, and have had different experiences.

I am happy that Christianity has given your life meaning, purpose, and peace. I just wish you can understand that many, many people have meaning, purpose, and peace without Christianity. Maybe you do. Just remember . . . those people are going to Hell. You can say God says so. To question God is to question the very belief that has made your life so much better. Why do that?

I don't think you need to question what you believe in. I think you're entitled to be happy. However, if you want to continue to post here, you're going to have to open your mind to the distinct possibility that atheism and other religions do exactly the same things Christianity does for you.

Atheism and other religions make people better too. It happens.
 
P.S. Want to watch someone throw a fit? Walk up to an engineering major and say, "What's your major?" Whatever their response ("Mechanical Engineering" or "Electrical Engineering,") reply, "Oh. So you're not a real engineer."

P.S.S. You might want to duck after you say that last part.

Where I come from, all the other engineers do this to Industrial/Operations Engineers. They notoriously have the easiest workload. If you struggle in another engineering discipline, you transfer to Industrial and go be a manager somewhere, leaving the engineering to be done by "real" engineers.

hee hee
 
Where I come from, all the other engineers do this to Industrial/Operations Engineers. They notoriously have the easiest workload. If you struggle in another engineering discipline, you transfer to Industrial and go be a manager somewhere, leaving the engineering to be done by "real" engineers.

hee hee
That's why Industrial Engineering (aka IE) is usually referred to as Imaginary Engineering.

Which is ok once you realize that EE (Electrical Engineering) is short for Egotistical Engineer.
 
You tell me to think about something but don't really give me anything to think about.
Okay, how about this e-mail I received today from my mom. It was forwarded to her from Rev. John Powell

Rev. John Powell, a professor at Loyola University
in Chicago, writes about Tommy, a student in his
Theology of Faith class:



Tommy



Some twelve years ago, I stood watching my university students file into the classroom for our first session in the Theology of Faith.


That was the day I first saw Tommy.


My eyes and my mind both blinked.


He was combing his long flaxen hair, which hung six inches below his shoulders.


It was the first time I had ever seen a boy with hair that long. I guess it
was just coming into fashion then.


I know in my mind that it isn't what's on your head
but what's in it that counts; but on that day, I was
unprepared and my emotions flipped. I
immediately filed Tommy under "S" for strange...
very strange.


Tommy turned out to be the "atheist in residence" in
my Theology of Faith course.


He constantly objected to, smirked at, or whined
about the possibility of an unconditionally loving Father/God.

We lived with each other in relative peace for one semester, although I admit he was for me at times a serious pain in the back pew.


When he came up at the end of the course to turn in his final exam, he asked in a cynical tone, "Do you think I'll ever find God?"


I decided instantly on a little shock therapy.


"No!" I said, very emphatically.


"Why not?" he responded. "I thought that was the product you were pushing."


I let him get five steps from the classroom door and then called out, "Tommy! I don't think you'll ever find Him, but I am absolutely certain that He will find you!"


He shrugged a little and left my class and my life.


I felt slightly disappointed at the thought that he had missed my clever line: "He will find you!"


Later, I heard that Tommy had graduated and I was duly grateful.


Then a sad report came.


I heard that Tommy had terminal cancer.


Before I could search him out, he came to see me.


When he walked into my office, his body was very badly wasted, and the long hair had all fallen out as a result of chemotherapy.


But his eyes were bright and his voice was firm, for the first time, I had known him, I believe.


"Tommy, I've thought about you so often - I hear you are sick," I blurted out.


"Oh, yes, very sick. I have cancer in both lungs. It's a matter of weeks."


"Can you talk about it, Tom?" I asked.


"Sure, what would you like to know?" he replied.


"What's it like to be only twenty-four and dying?" I asked.


"Well, it could be worse," he replied.


"Like what?" I asked.


"Well, like being fifty and having no values or ideals; like being fifty and thinking that booze, seducing women, and making money are the real biggies in life," he replied.


I began to look through my mental file cabinet under 'S' where I had filed Tommy as strange. (It seems as though everybody I try to reject by classification, God sends back into my life to educate me.)


"But what I really came to see you about," Tom said, "is something you said to me on the last day of class."


He continued, "I asked you if you thought I would ever find God and you said, 'No!' which surprised me. Then you said, 'But He will find you.' I thought about that a lot, even though my search for God was hardly intense at that time.


"But when the doctors removed a lump from my groin and told me that it was malignant, that's when I got serious about locating God.


"And when the malignancy spread into my vital organs, I really began banging bloody fists against the bronzedoors of heaven.


"But God did not come out. In fact, nothing happened. Did you ever try anything for a long time with great effort and with no success? You get psychologically glutted, fed up with trying. And then you quit.


"Well, one day I woke up, and instead of throwing a few more futile appeals over that high brick wall to a God who may be or may not be there, I just quit. I decided that I didn't really care about God, about an afterlife, or anything like that. I decided to spend what time I had left doing something more profitable. I thought about you and your class and I remembered something else you had said:
'The essential sadness is to go through life without loving. But it would
be almost equally sad to go through life and leave this world without ever
telling those you loved that you had loved them.'


"So, I began with the hardest one, my Dad.
He was reading the newspaper when I approached him.

"'Dad.'


"'Yes, what?' he asked, without lowering the newspaper.


"'Dad, I would like to talk with you.'


"'Well, talk.'


"'I mean, it's really important.'


"The newspaper came down three slow inches.

"'What is it?'

"'Dad, I love you - I just wanted you to know that.'

Tom smiled at me and said it with obvious satisfaction, as though he
felt a warm and secret joy flowing inside him.

"The newspaper fluttered to the floor. Then my father did two things I could never remember him ever doing before. He cried and he hugged me. We talked all night, even though he had to go to work the next morning. It felt so good to be close to my father, to see his tears, to feel his hug, to hear him say that he loved me."


"It was easier with my mother and little brother. They cried with me, too,
and we hugged each other, and started saying real nice things to each
other. We shared the things we had been keeping secret for so many years. I
was only sorry about one thing - that I had waited so long. Here I was,
just beginning to open up to all the people I had actually been close to.


"Then, one day I turned around and God was there. He didn't come to me when I pleaded with Him. I guess I was like an animal trainer holding out a hoop: 'C'mon, jump through. C'mon, I'll give You three days, three weeks.'


"Apparently God does things in His own way and His own hour. But the important thing is that He was there. He found me! You were right. He found me even after I stopped looking for Him."


"Tommy," I practically gasped, "I think you are saying something very important and much more universal than you realize. To me, at least, you are saying that the surest way to find God is not to make Him a private possession, a problem solver, or an instant consolation in time of need, but rather, by opening to love. You know, the Apostle John said that. He said, 'God is love, and anyone who lives in love is living with God and God is living in him.'


"Tom, could I ask you a favor? You know, when I had you in class you were a
real pain. But (laughing) you can make it all up to me now. Would you
come into my present Theology of Faith course and tell them what you have
just told me? If I told them the same thing it wouldn't be half as
effective as if you were to tell it."

"Oh, I was ready for you, but I don't know if I'm ready for your class."


"Tom, think about it. If and when you are ready, give me a call."


In a few days, Tom called, said he was ready for the class, that he wanted to do that for God and for me. So we scheduled a date. However, he never made it.


He had another appointment, far more important than the one with me and my class.

Before he died, we talked one last time. "I'm not going to make it to your
class," he said.

"I know, Tom."


"Will you tell them for me? Will you tell the whole world for me?"


"I will, Tom. I'll tell them. I'll do my best."


So, to all of you who have been kind enough to read this simple story about God's love, thank you for listening.




This is a true story and is not enhanced for publicity purposes.


With thanks,


Rev. John Powell, Professor Loyola University in Chicago
 
Sounds like Tommy was scared of dying and grasping at straws so he wouldn't have to face the possibility of his existence coming to an end. Understandable, I suppose. When reality gets to be too much to handle hiding in a pleasant fantasy is one way to escape the pressure.
 
What you are saying to us, KK, is that as non-Christians, we do not love one another, because if we truly did, whether we looked for God or not, we would be Christian.

Let me put it this way, KK. If I were in a religion that said that as good as Christians may be, they are all going to Hell to be tortured forever because they believe in the wrong thing, might I consider turning away from that religion out of love for Christians?

Is love wishing Hell upon those who simply don't understand?
 
What you are saying to us, KK, is that as non-Christians, we do not love one another, because if we truly did, whether we looked for God or not, we would be Christian.

Let me put it this way, KK. If I were in a religion that said that as good as Christians may be, they are all going to Hell to be tortured forever because they believe in the wrong thing, might I consider turning away from that religion out of love for Christians?

Is love wishing Hell upon those who simply don't understand?
AS I go to my Biblegateway and read the verse of the day it reminds me how it is really meant to be...

1 Timothy 2:5-6

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

What excactly is so hard for people to understand?
 
Okay, how about this e-mail I received today from my mom. It was forwarded to her from Rev. John Powell

Rev. John Powell, a professor at Loyola University
in Chicago, writes about Tommy, a student in his
Theology of Faith class:



Tommy



Some twelve years ago, I stood watching my university students file into the classroom for our first session in the Theology of Faith.


That was the day I first saw Tommy.


My eyes and my mind both blinked.


He was combing his long flaxen hair, which hung six inches below his shoulders.


It was the first time I had ever seen a boy with hair that long. I guess it
was just coming into fashion then.


I know in my mind that it isn't what's on your head
but what's in it that counts; but on that day, I was
unprepared and my emotions flipped. I
immediately filed Tommy under "S" for strange...
very strange.


Tommy turned out to be the "atheist in residence" in
my Theology of Faith course.


He constantly objected to, smirked at, or whined
about the possibility of an unconditionally loving Father/God.

We lived with each other in relative peace for one semester, although I admit he was for me at times a serious pain in the back pew.


When he came up at the end of the course to turn in his final exam, he asked in a cynical tone, "Do you think I'll ever find God?"


I decided instantly on a little shock therapy.


"No!" I said, very emphatically.


"Why not?" he responded. "I thought that was the product you were pushing."


I let him get five steps from the classroom door and then called out, "Tommy! I don't think you'll ever find Him, but I am absolutely certain that He will find you!"


He shrugged a little and left my class and my life.


I felt slightly disappointed at the thought that he had missed my clever line: "He will find you!"


Later, I heard that Tommy had graduated and I was duly grateful.


Then a sad report came.


I heard that Tommy had terminal cancer.


Before I could search him out, he came to see me.


When he walked into my office, his body was very badly wasted, and the long hair had all fallen out as a result of chemotherapy.


But his eyes were bright and his voice was firm, for the first time, I had known him, I believe.


"Tommy, I've thought about you so often - I hear you are sick," I blurted out.


"Oh, yes, very sick. I have cancer in both lungs. It's a matter of weeks."


"Can you talk about it, Tom?" I asked.


"Sure, what would you like to know?" he replied.


"What's it like to be only twenty-four and dying?" I asked.


"Well, it could be worse," he replied.


"Like what?" I asked.


"Well, like being fifty and having no values or ideals; like being fifty and thinking that booze, seducing women, and making money are the real biggies in life," he replied.


I began to look through my mental file cabinet under 'S' where I had filed Tommy as strange. (It seems as though everybody I try to reject by classification, God sends back into my life to educate me.)


"But what I really came to see you about," Tom said, "is something you said to me on the last day of class."


He continued, "I asked you if you thought I would ever find God and you said, 'No!' which surprised me. Then you said, 'But He will find you.' I thought about that a lot, even though my search for God was hardly intense at that time.


"But when the doctors removed a lump from my groin and told me that it was malignant, that's when I got serious about locating God.


"And when the malignancy spread into my vital organs, I really began banging bloody fists against the bronzedoors of heaven.


"But God did not come out. In fact, nothing happened. Did you ever try anything for a long time with great effort and with no success? You get psychologically glutted, fed up with trying. And then you quit.


"Well, one day I woke up, and instead of throwing a few more futile appeals over that high brick wall to a God who may be or may not be there, I just quit. I decided that I didn't really care about God, about an afterlife, or anything like that. I decided to spend what time I had left doing something more profitable. I thought about you and your class and I remembered something else you had said:
'The essential sadness is to go through life without loving. But it would
be almost equally sad to go through life and leave this world without ever
telling those you loved that you had loved them.'


"So, I began with the hardest one, my Dad.
He was reading the newspaper when I approached him.

"'Dad.'


"'Yes, what?' he asked, without lowering the newspaper.


"'Dad, I would like to talk with you.'


"'Well, talk.'


"'I mean, it's really important.'


"The newspaper came down three slow inches.

"'What is it?'

"'Dad, I love you - I just wanted you to know that.'

Tom smiled at me and said it with obvious satisfaction, as though he
felt a warm and secret joy flowing inside him.

"The newspaper fluttered to the floor. Then my father did two things I could never remember him ever doing before. He cried and he hugged me. We talked all night, even though he had to go to work the next morning. It felt so good to be close to my father, to see his tears, to feel his hug, to hear him say that he loved me."


"It was easier with my mother and little brother. They cried with me, too,
and we hugged each other, and started saying real nice things to each
other. We shared the things we had been keeping secret for so many years. I
was only sorry about one thing - that I had waited so long. Here I was,
just beginning to open up to all the people I had actually been close to.


"Then, one day I turned around and God was there. He didn't come to me when I pleaded with Him. I guess I was like an animal trainer holding out a hoop: 'C'mon, jump through. C'mon, I'll give You three days, three weeks.'


"Apparently God does things in His own way and His own hour. But the important thing is that He was there. He found me! You were right. He found me even after I stopped looking for Him."


"Tommy," I practically gasped, "I think you are saying something very important and much more universal than you realize. To me, at least, you are saying that the surest way to find God is not to make Him a private possession, a problem solver, or an instant consolation in time of need, but rather, by opening to love. You know, the Apostle John said that. He said, 'God is love, and anyone who lives in love is living with God and God is living in him.'


"Tom, could I ask you a favor? You know, when I had you in class you were a
real pain. But (laughing) you can make it all up to me now. Would you
come into my present Theology of Faith course and tell them what you have
just told me? If I told them the same thing it wouldn't be half as
effective as if you were to tell it."

"Oh, I was ready for you, but I don't know if I'm ready for your class."


"Tom, think about it. If and when you are ready, give me a call."


In a few days, Tom called, said he was ready for the class, that he wanted to do that for God and for me. So we scheduled a date. However, he never made it.


He had another appointment, far more important than the one with me and my class.

Before he died, we talked one last time. "I'm not going to make it to your
class," he said.

"I know, Tom."


"Will you tell them for me? Will you tell the whole world for me?"


"I will, Tom. I'll tell them. I'll do my best."


So, to all of you who have been kind enough to read this simple story about God's love, thank you for listening.




This is a true story and is not enhanced for publicity purposes.


With thanks,


Rev. John Powell, Professor Loyola University in Chicago



Well that's a wonderful roundabout way to say that the cancer patient got cancer because god is a bastard that needs to inflict suffering to make his point.

I find it deplorable that you would trade on the desperation of a dying cancer patient to try to provide evidence of a God, and even that you would say the cancer, and the death of that person, was a tool to bring the boy to faith. That is a horrible sentiment.
 

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