The Gospel

scimystic said:
Your point is a good one, and presents a real challenge to mine. I would say two things about the Jesuits. First that their apparent competence in reasoning has more to do with dilligence then with natural development of ability. They have learned, through hard study, to use the methodology of reason in a way that is selective to the point of being intellectually dishonest, in order to propogate irrational proposals. Second, that their effectiveness has more to do with their ability to play from both sides of the fence then with their specific competence in reason. Their characteristic style of argument is to slip back and forth between appeals to reason and appeals to emotion (fear and desire). When done skillfully this is very difficult to argue against, but it is not so by virtue of being exceptional reasoning.
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So it's not true reasoning? Maybe. But my point was that the Jesuits (to say nothing of many other religious educators!) have historically trained a great number outstanding intellects (scientists, philosophers, logicians, mathematicians, polymaths of all sorts) - far from all of whom were Jesuits, of course. Descartes famously credited his intellectual accomplishments to his early Jesuit education. Don't you think it's reasonable to suspect that there's something more to the method than filling people's heads with garbage and casuistry?


articulett said:
Yes. There is a stronger correllation to I.Q.--but I want to have hope for the masses. Wikipedia has an article on I.Q. and religiosity...and I know that Mensa and other I.Q. based groups have a majority that fall under the umbrella: humanist, freethinker, atheist, non-religous, agnostic, etc.
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It'd be interesting to locate some additional literature on this. The Wikipedia article (which is the subject of a neutrality dispute, I note) isn't especially persuasive. It even acknowledges, among other things, that we don't know how representative Mensa is of the high-IQ population.

It'd be nice to think so, but I'm skeptical that there's any noticeably negative correlation between religiosity on the one hand and intelligence on the other, after controlling for other factors. Still, I'll keep my eye out for research on the topic.
 
Mensa recognizes a number of standardized I.Q. tests like the Stanford Binet--they used to accept S.A.T.s of 1300 and over or ACTs 29 and over--they test also. They accept anyone scoring in the top 2% of such tests. These tests tend to measure things like pattern recognition and analogy that is not necessarily dependent upon education. As a former believer, I think it became increasingly harder to believe because there was no way for me to determine why one faith based claim should be considered more true than another...(analogous thinking?)

I belonged to Mensa some years ago, and I can confirm that in my group at that time (So. Cal--Valley) the majority fit under the non-religious/atheist umbrella. It wasn't an overwhelming majority (but this was California in the 80s). Of course one example is not at all statistically significant. It would be interesting to see how a group of atheists scores on an I.Q. test--is it higher than average? by how much? Otherwise it would be hard to tease out belief from any specific I.Q. test...especially since a large number of those who consider themself jewish are "secular jews" from my experience. An overwhelming majority of published scientists does not believe in a personal god--moreso in the Biosciences (per TAM4)--what sort of data could we use to assess the information...can you imagine a good test protocol without a selection bias?
 
Or for that matter, women with big breasts who drive trucks, ideally while wearing doilies and delivering marital aids to nuns who fist goats.

I know. I need help.
 
Roadtoad said:
Or for that matter, women with big breasts who drive trucks, ideally while wearing doilies and delivering marital aids to nuns who fist goats.

I know. I need help.
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And yet you grace us with your presence!

(Of course it is entirely possible that all of the above topics are discussed in this forum in the limerick or top ten secion.)

Aww shucks....did UnKurious_Kathy run away? And the thread just started to get interesting...
 
Roadtoad said:
I chose not to join Mensa, even with an IQ of 183. No one wants to talk about women. Or trucks.
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Really? Because the few times I attended, there were mostly men...who were only talking about women and trucks!

(Okay, I made the truck part up.)
 
So it's not true reasoning? Maybe. But my point was that the Jesuits (to say nothing of many other religious educators!) have historically trained a great number outstanding intellects (scientists, philosophers, logicians, mathematicians, polymaths of all sorts) - far from all of whom were Jesuits, of course. Descartes famously credited his intellectual accomplishments to his early Jesuit education. Don't you think it's reasonable to suspect that there's something more to the method than filling people's heads with garbage and casuistry?
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Again your point is good. But I think that it needs to be viewed against a piece of information that has not yet been given: Which is that up until about 350 years ago The Church had a monopoly on literacy, and so, on education. All of the great Medieval and Renaissance thinkers were churchmen not because the education given by the church was a good one, but because it was the only one. I would even go so far as to say that the last outstanding philosopher to be produced the church was George Berkeley, who died in 1753. To settle the argument let me admit that I was somewhat overstating my case, for dramatic impact. There are certainly a lot of intellectually competent people who have started from a religious education (and, I would say, overcome it), and I can even think of some high profile cases of intellectually competent people who lapsed into religion quite late in life. But I would reiterate that on balance , and now in juxtaposition to scientific education as a real alternative, religious education can be seen to provide a very poor start for intellectual development. I think that at some level the problem captured in the computer adage: "Garbage in, garbage out" has got to hobble biological minds in much the same way that it so obviously hobbles electronic ones.
 
kurious_kathy said:
Where's the proof?
All I see is someone throwing accusations around about that without any evidence that it really happened. Anyways, I am not willing to play that game.
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kurious_kathy: God is great, and Jesus died for our sins.

wolfgirl (and everyone else): Where's the proof? All I see is someone throwing stories around without any evidence that it really happened. Anyways, I am not willing to play that game.

Do you even begin to see the irony in what you've said?
 
kurious_kathy said:
Hi ceo, thanks for your response here. I just shared Tommy's story which was written I don't know how long ago by Mr Powell. I don't even know if this John Powell is the same one everyone is talking about.

I had gotten this e-mail from my mom and just wanted to share what I think is a very touching story about Tommy! You guys again took a story I meant to share about Tommy and start making it a story about the guy who wrote it. Why do good things always seem to get twisted around as a bad thing on this board?

Anyways the testimony of Tommy came from this wesite w/many others.
http://www.truthorfiction.com/index-inspirational.htm
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So you post this nonsense, admittedly not knowing if it's true or whatever, just because your mom forwarded you an email. (So you're one of "those people," the new class of annoying people who forward every stupid email they receive without verifying its accuracy, a major pet peeve of mine - but I suppose that's a rant for another time and another thread.) But when someone posts something that you don't like about the person who allegedly wrote the thing, you say there's no proof, blah, blah, blah. Where's the proof that Tommy went to heaven? You don't seem to feel the need to prove that?

Double standard follows double standard follows double standard with you, and you don't even realize it.
 
kurious_kathy said:
Except for two big huge differences. Allah and Jesus are not the same God.
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You still don't get it, and I have a sinking feeling you never will. (pounding head against keyboard, wondering why we keep bothering to try)

The people who believe in Allah feel EXACTLY the same way as you do about Jesus. EXACTLY! They love him and worship him and believe that he is great. They want to honor him in their daily lives. They will sacrifice for their religion. They will argue to the death about their beliefs.

The fact that their god is different from your god means nothing to those of us who have no god. It's all the same. Worship one, worship another, it's all false to us.

But most importantly, your god is as false to them as their is to you. There is nothing that makes them different from you. Being a radical fundamentalist christian is no different from being a radical fundamentalist muslim. You choose to worship different (and I would say equally false) gods.

Your answer will always be, "Yes, but the difference is that my god is real and theirs isn't." But their answer to the same thing would be, "Yes, but the difference is that my god is real and theirs isn't." They feel as strongly that they are right as you do.

How can you know that you are right and they are wrong? And don't say, "Because the Bible says so," because that doesn't matter!!!!! (And because I may just jump off a roof if you do!)
 
wolfgirl said:
The fact that their god is different from your god means nothing to those of us who have no god. It's all the same. Worship one, worship another, it's all false to us.

But most importantly, your god is as false to them as their is to you. There is nothing that makes them different from you. Being a radical fundamentalist christian is no different from being a radical fundamentalist muslim. You choose to worship different (and I would say equally false) gods.

Your answer will always be, "Yes, but the difference is that my god is real and theirs isn't." But their answer to the same thing would be, "Yes, but the difference is that my god is real and theirs isn't." They feel as strongly that they are right as you do.
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Allah and the Christian/Jewish god are the same. Here is a quote from the Koran advising Muslims what they should tell the Jews:

“We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you; our God and your God is One, and to Him we do submit”

(Palmer translation of Sura 29:46)

The Koran says that Allah and the Jewish God are one and the same. Muslims believe that Jesus was a false or defective prophet who got most things wrong, while Mohammed was the true prophet.
 
wolfgirl said:
You still don't get it, and I have a sinking feeling you never will. (pounding head against keyboard, wondering why we keep bothering to try)

The people who believe in Allah feel EXACTLY the same way as you do about Jesus. EXACTLY! They love him and worship him and believe that he is great. They want to honor him in their daily lives. They will sacrifice for their religion. They will argue to the death about their beliefs.

The fact that their god is different from your god means nothing to those of us who have no god. It's all the same. Worship one, worship another, it's all false to us.

But most importantly, your god is as false to them as their is to you. There is nothing that makes them different from you. Being a radical fundamentalist christian is no different from being a radical fundamentalist muslim. You choose to worship different (and I would say equally false) gods.

Your answer will always be, "Yes, but the difference is that my god is real and theirs isn't." But their answer to the same thing would be, "Yes, but the difference is that my god is real and theirs isn't." They feel as strongly that they are right as you do.

How can you know that you are right and they are wrong? And don't say, "Because the Bible says so," because that doesn't matter!!!!! (And because I may just jump off a roof if you do!)
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It's true that I have never believed what the Muslims believe. In fact the more I find out about the Koran and how it is in direct conflict with the true Word of God(the Holy Bible) the more upset I get about it. But I do not or will not ever make a claim stating I hate Muslims. Why do they hate Christians?

And again I would like to share something I shared on another site that states my being turned around from my pagan beliefs in the past...

I have learned enough from the mistakes of my past. New Agers take the view points of both polytheism, and pantheism. I had to ask God to show me the way out of believing those lies. When I asked God to show me what He saw in my own life, He did take the blinders off.

I guess that's why scripture says He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. (Although in my own case I think I was just desperate enough that God did answer my request.) I would just advise others to be careful when you ask for something from God, you just might get it! I'm not sure I was ready to see what God revealed to me, but I'm glad He did.
"Sin is real, and the devil is a liar!"

At least now I am truely experiencing God in my life, and it's all because of Jesus. His light shines through the darkness of this world.

1 John 2:22-24
Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.
As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.


His Word is how we know Him. Do you believe the Bible?
 
kurious_kathy said:
I guess that's why scripture says He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. (Although in my own case I think I was just desperate enough that God did answer my request.)

QUOTE]

Do you mean he spoke to you literally, or was it “a sign”?
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chance;1548724 Do you mean he spoke to you literally said:
He exposed the enemies in my life. Have you ever had to face your demons?
Well I have and I am now here to share my testimony that Jesus does truely save people. Coming out of the darkness into the light is the best thing anyone of us can experience!
I was once held captive by so many things, now I'm free. I no longer live in fear, I know God is true. When the Son sets you free, you are free indeed!
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kurious_kathy said:
It's true that I have never believed what the Muslims believe. In fact the more I find out about the Koran and how it is in direct conflict with the true Word of God(the Holy Bible) the more upset I get about it. But I do not or will not ever make a claim stating I hate Muslims. Why do they hate Christians?

His Word is how we know Him. Do you believe the Bible?
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Oh, kk, kk ...

kurious_karimah said:
It's true that I have never believed what the Christians believe. In fact the more I find out about the Bible and how it is in direct conflict with the true Word of God(the Holy Qur'aan) the more upset I get about it. But I do not or will not ever make a claim stating I hate Christians. Why do they hate Muslims?

His Word is how we know Him. Do you believe the Qur'aan?
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