The Gospel

kurious_kathy said:
The point is the victory was won by Jesus when he died on the cross to pay the price for sin. Because of His Holy sacrifice we are all saved. It's just a question if you can ever come to that one simple truth. Jesus died to redeem us all. It's a gift of grace and mercy. Why do people make it so complicated?
I am someone who is just very greatful about His gift of love and enjoy sharing it.
Click to expand...

And we OWE Jesus because he chose to die on the cross for sins committed by someone (unrelated to me) his Father created knowing they would sin?

I forgot to tell you, Kathy - my great, great, great, great Grandfather lent your family 3 million dollars a long time ago and I need your family to pay up. I'll take a lump sum or $50,000 increments paid monthly.

Do you buy THAT assertion?
 
Mephisto said:
And we OWE Jesus because he chose to die on the cross for sins committed by someone (unrelated to me) his Father created knowing they would sin?

I forgot to tell you, Kathy - my great, great, great, great Grandfather lent your family 3 million dollars a long time ago and I need your family to pay up. I'll take a lump sum or $50,000 increments paid monthly.

Do you buy THAT assertion?
Click to expand...

An excellent analogy, Mephisto.

I believe you have hit upon the crux of how Christianity digs in the hooks of the ultimate guilt trip into those who would subscribe to this particular faith.
 
kurious_kathy said:
I am very interested in learning and identifying things in other religious teachings to see how other beliefs compare to my belief ...
Click to expand...
Dr Adequate said:
Without looking it up, how much can you tell me about the teachings of Sikhism?
Click to expand...
kurious_kathy said:
I haven't heard that term Sikhism.
Click to expand...
Hello? You tell us that you are "very interested" in comparative religion --- and you haven't even heard of the world's fifth largest faith?
 
KK, I have a little theological problem here.

I used to be a Christian. Then I lost my faith.

According to the Bible, I only get one chance:

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame” (Hebrews 6:3-6).
Click to expand...
Got that? It is now impossible for me to be saved.

And, if I recall your own religious history correctly, you're in the same boat, aren't you?

Well, see you in Hell.
 
Orangutango said:
An excellent analogy, Mephisto.

I believe you have hit upon the crux of how Christianity digs in the hooks of the ultimate guilt trip into those who would subscribe to this particular faith.
Click to expand...

Thanks Orangutango, but it's nothing that hasn't done by any other religion before. First lay on the guilt; then require the payment for alleviating that guilt. I mean . . . he DIED for YOU! Don't you think he deserves something in exchange? ;)
 
Mephisto said:
Thanks Orangutango, but it's nothing that hasn't done by any other religion before. First lay on the guilt; then require the payment for alleviating that guilt. I mean . . . he DIED for YOU! Don't you think he deserves something in exchange? ;)
Click to expand...

True... but Christianity has turned the guilt trip into such a fine art that it would put Italian mothers to shame.:D
 
Dr Adequate said:
KK, I have a little theological problem here.

I used to be a Christian. Then I lost my faith.

According to the Bible, I only get one chance:


Got that? It is now impossible for me to be saved.

And, if I recall your own religious history correctly, you're in the same boat, aren't you?

Well, see you in Hell.
Click to expand...

I totally forgot about this point. Hebrews 6:6

He's right, Kathy. I guess your god doesn't believe in second chances.
 
Last edited:
Permit me:

Kathy will continue to preach. She is not here to convert, really. She's earning brownie points with certain people within her community. "Oh, look at Kathy's incredible faith! She will witness to those who hate Christ, in order to bring the light to them! How devout she is!"

In reality, there are those of us, (present company included), who see through the charade.
 
Orangutango said:
I totally forgot about this point. Hebrews 6:6

He's right, Kathy. I guess your god doesn't believe in second chances.
Click to expand...
The Parable of the Prodigal Son needs rewriting. It ought to end "so then his father tortured him forever."

But then Jesus was talking about sin, wasn't he? The concept of apostacy would have meant nothing to him; he'd never heard of Christianity and had no notion that one day people would worship him as a god.
 
Last edited:
Dr Adequate said:
The Parable of the Prodigal Son needs rewriting. It ought to end "so then his father tortured him forever."

But then Jesus was talking about sin, wasn't he? The concept of apostacy would have meant nothing to him; he'd never heard of Christianity and had no notion that one day people would worship him as a god.
Click to expand...

A good point.

From what I have read, it appears that Hebrews 6: is one of the more controversial and contested passages of the bible, and rightfully so. Just the fact alone that this extremely "important" proclamation attributed to Jesus is even open to debate should cause any individual who believes in the bible as either the literal or inspired word of "god" to stop and take pause.

The end result, however, seems to be the same: the bible... and passages such as this one... are meant to, excuse the pun, put the "fear of god" into those who would even contemplate questioning their faith with an eternity of suffering in hell.
 
Last edited:
Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Matthew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

II Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

So, Kathy, you've said it enough times to other people, and I'll say it to you: the Bible says that you will go to Hell. No ifs, no buts, and no way out. If it's any consolation, I'll be there with you to discuss theology.

Imagine an eternity listening to me saying "I told you so."

In the meantime, I suggest that since the whole reward and punishment scheme evidently doesn't work for apostates, perhaps you'd better make like an atheist and base your morality on love of your neighbor rather than fear of a God who's going to torture you forever whatever you do.

OK ... now for the good news ...

He doesn't exist.
 
Allow me to take the opportunity to thank you for doing the "heavy lifting" of posting all of these relevant passages, my good Doctor. It's 1am here, and I'm afraid I was too tired (i.e. lazy) to post any examples myself.

I shall leave the turning of the screws to you and the rest of the good folk here... this unrepentant unbeliever is off to nappy-time.:)
 
Hi Kathy,
I appreciate you are busy and cannot or will not answer everyone. Without trying to be too preachy, I had a couple of thoughts on your comments.

Would you want people know Jesus by just what atheists say about him, or would you refer them to Christians? So why do you rely on pop Christian writers to understand atheists or secularism?

What the American Rationalist printed 25 years ago is still as true, and still unanswered.
Skepticism and McDowell's "Proof" - Jerry Wayne Borchardt
The American Rationalist 27(July/August 1982). Copyright 1982 by The American Rationalist.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jerry_borchandt/skeptic.html
Click to expand...
 
Kopji, you do understand, don't you, that Kathy will not only never read this, (and it's a damned good article, by the way), but if anything, she'll roundly condemn you for hardening your heart to Christ's mercy.

See, I know this. I know these people too well. They aren't interested in serving God, at least as the Bible describes it. It's more about the power, the politics of it. And when you're finally fed up with the evasions, the games, the condescension, they'll turn their backs, sniff a bit, and say, "I'll pray for you." Pretty scary, once you get past the illusions.

Another point: Kathy, after years of serving and trying to serve in Churches, maybe you could explain why I have found myself working for an SOB, (particularly one who operates a great deal in YOUR neck of the woods), who puts the safety of the public well behind his profits. Maybe you could explain how God has "blessed" my wife, my kids and me with broken promises, long hours, equipment which should have been junked years ago in many cases, and how I'm blessed to be close to losing my house.

Maybe you could, but I doubt it.

(P.S.: I sure hope you don't drive a minivan.)
 
ned flandas said:
If they didnt care, then why did so many people flock to hear him
Click to expand...

You do realize that these are two separate questions, right Ned?

Maybe they flocked to hear him because he had something nice or different to say. People flock to see Bill Mahr, Chris Rock and George Carlin all the time, it doesn't mean any of them are the son of God.


ned flandas said:
. . . and why did they crucify him?
Click to expand...

Maybe they got tired of what he was saying, but I'm sure you'd like us to believe that they crucified him because it was God's will, right? Maybe there just wasn't too much entertainment back in those days, and anyone saying anything in public might deserve a listen (thinking of the "prophets scene in Life of Brian :)).
 
ned flandas said:
If you dont mind me asking, how did you lose your faith?
Click to expand...
It went like this.

I am saved through faith. I will go to heaven.

It says so in the Bible. It must be true.

"Faith is the belief that what we hope is true."

It says so in the Bible. Somewhere in St Paul to be more precise. It must be true.

I must believe that many people will be damned.

"And the smoke of their burning shall rise up forever."

It says so in the Bible. It must be true.

I can believe that. I can believe in Hell, just as I believed that Jesus walked on Lake Galilee.

It says so in the Bible. It must be true.

And yet, when I put it all together, someone will be damned and tortured forever by God.

But faith is the belief that what we hope is true.

But I hope with all my heart that this will not happen to anyone.

So I do not have faith.

So I too am damned.

And I have seen this with my own eyes: some creationist wanted to debate with me, so I took him on. And some time through my argument, he said that I'd have to excuse myself for saying that thing to God forever when I was suffering in Hell. And he had a huge big grin on his face when he said it. The thought that I would be tortured forever caused him pleasure rather than distress.

Some people can do that. I cannot. Even if Hell existed, I could not hope that it existed. I cannot have faith in the nightmare world that Christians show me --- even if I believed it to be true.
 
Hi Roadtoad
Kopji, you do understand, don't you, that Kathy will not only never read this, (and it's a damned good article, by the way), but if anything, she'll roundly condemn you for hardening your heart to Christ's mercy.

See, I know this. I know these people too well. They aren't interested in serving God, at least as the Bible describes it. It's more about the power, the politics of it. And when you're finally fed up with the evasions, the games, the condescension, they'll turn their backs, sniff a bit, and say, "I'll pray for you." Pretty scary, once you get past the illusions.
Click to expand...
Humm, maybe.
I tend to think of forum posters in a dual sense: as real individuals, and as avatars bearing 'points of view'. Somewhere in there the individual kathy seems like a well meaning person. If the 'individual' Kathy will not hear, maybe some of those sharing her views will hear.

She can condemn me but it would be like condemning water for wearing down stone. :D I really don't mind.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom