The Gospel

[kurious_kathy]

He is...? Funny... I don't remember conceding defeat.

I think I'll have to get another book written by Josh McDowell called "Why Skeptics Should Consider Christianity."

 

[Orangutango]

I think I'll have to get another book written by Josh McDowell called "Why Skeptics Should Consider Christianity."

I'll make you a deal... I'll read "Why Skeptics Should Consider Christianity" if you read "Why Christians Should Consider Being Skeptical".

 

[Ducky]

I haven't heard that term Sikhism. But I will tell you that you guys on this forum have inspired me to read a book I came across in a Christian bookstore. The name of the book is called "Understanding Secular Religions" ever heard of it? Even though I am just getting done with the first chapter which I must say covers much detail on Atheists, Agnosticism, and Skepticism, I find it quite informative. The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th chapters will cover Marxism, Secular Humanism, and Existentialism.

Somehow I get the impression I should have read this book before I started conversing with some of you to better understand what type of critical thinker I am up against.
Just remember this is a spiritual battle and God is the victor!

maybe, and I realize this might be hard to swallow, you could learn that us "evil" athiests are actually good people.

Of course, according to you we still need to accept Jesus to spare us from eternal damnation, but really, here is the big question:

Why would God smote a caring and selfless individual just because they had not accepted a human's interpretation of god and their accompanying rules about how to worship said god?

You still have not answered my question about why I need to hear your preaching. Why do I need to hear you preach? Don't give me the bullsh*t about god changing hearts, not you, tell me specifically why you think this forum NEEDS to hear your preaching, as you have said.

Answer the question:

Why do I NEED to hear preaching about your god?

 

[RandFan]

Just remember this is a spiritual battle and God is the victor!

And if you accept that then you accept the game is skewed against mortals for simply being his play toy. Many if not most are condemned just for incidentally being born at the wrong place and or at the wrong time. Which raises the question, victorious over what? His own creation where he set the rules? And who are the losers? Those who died before he bothered sending his son (himself)? Those not lucky enough to hear the good word? What a battle, god against the unlucky ones. How can he lose?

I want no part of that. If I knew it were true I would want to be damned for all eternity to spite the prick. Fortunately such a fairytale is absurd, an omniscient god, if he did exist, wouldn't be such a monster.

 

[kurious_kathy]

Hi RF, You aren't really hearing what I mean by this is a spiritual battle. The point is the victory was won by Jesus when he died on the cross to pay the price for sin. Because of His Holy sacrifice we are all saved. It's just a question if you can ever come to that one simple truth. Jesus died to redeem us all. It's a gift of grace and mercy. Why do people make it so complicated?
I am someone who is just very greatful about His gift of love and enjoy sharing it.

 

[RandFan]

Hi RF, You aren't really hearing what I mean by this is a spiritual battle. The point is the victory was won by Jesus when he died on the cross to pay the price for sin. Because of His Holy sacrifice we are all saved. It's just a question if you can ever come to that one simple truth. Jesus died to redeem us all. It's a gift of grace and mercy. Why do people make it so complicated?
I am someone who is just very greatful about His gift of love and enjoy sharing it.

KK, I spent 20 years in bible study, 4 years in seminary/mission training center and 2 years as a full time missionary. I know the talking points. The problem you keep ignoring is that not everyone gets to accept that gift and therefore are damned to eternal hell to suffer torment without end. If one should accept such a dumb idea.

I don't make anything complicated. Logic is logic and a happy hope for ones future won't change facts.

 

[articulett]

So nobody who doesn't believe in Jesus has ever recovered from addiction? What an interesting piece of truthiness!

Yep. And people who pray don't die on airplanes...and people who pray for miners never lose miners in mining accidents and people who pray never die or have their kids die in sad or tragic ways. And those who pray in foxholes don't die either. (And those who pray to a god named Allah, get virgins in the next life.) And hurricanes happen because god hates feminists and gays.

Amazing-- once you've convinced someone they have a soul...and that this soul lives forever...you can get them to believe anything. Tell them that their soul can suffer forever but it can also experience everlasting bliss--and you can get their money, allegience, and blind vapid obedience--just claim to have the key for "living happily ever after (via prophesy, special book, grand insight, testimonials, etc.). Oh, and make sure that you tell believers that everyone who causes them to question their faith is an agent of satan and that faith is the path to deep truths. Also, tell them there are heaven bonus points if they convert others. For extra allegience--tell them they will get to say "I told you so" for eternity in the next life to all the people who didn't believe the same fairytale they did.

True Believers of all sorts amaze me. They can so readily see the fallacies of moonies, muslims, scientologists, greek mythology etc. But no one can question their god (the mighty oz)--because he is the TRUE god. They can't fathom that others find them as looney as all the "wrong" religions they find looney. Truly spectacular entertainment.

I really respect Randi, because these nuts always attack the messenger when someone tries to indicate they might be fooling themselves--yet these are the people run around posting their inanities all over the internet. They pretend to be interested in truth (Jesus thinks it's okay to deceive I guess)--but they really are just brainwashed minions who want to say, "yes sir...my god is so true...you don't know anything...you don't know that there is no such thing as god...he's real...of course the world is designed...look how amazingly it all fits together...)

BTW, Kathy...as Dr. Adequate said--god is quite the abortionist. In nature, miscarriage happens all the time...it actually happens all the time in the human world too--despite over 230,000,000 sperm per ejaculate competing for the egg--you'd think an "intelligent designer" would be a little less wasteful, wouldn't you?

 

[articulett]

Hi RF, You aren't really hearing what I mean by this is a spiritual battle. The point is the victory was won by Jesus when he died on the cross to pay the price for sin. Because of His Holy sacrifice we are all saved. It's just a question if you can ever come to that one simple truth. Jesus died to redeem us all. It's a gift of grace and mercy. Why do people make it so complicated?
I am someone who is just very greatful about His gift of love and enjoy sharing it.

See, we don't believe in "spiritual battles". It seems pretty clear that it's something going on in the head of zealots and not at all happening in real life--the life where we can measure things--even invisible things--like gravity, infrared, electromagnetism, relativity, mental illness. Despite the eons of belief in "spirits"--there is no evidence that such thing actually exists. Therefore, it is most likely, a delusion. (That's what we call things that only exist in the imagination).

You can boil it down to simplicity because you have been brainwashed not to ask questions...you think it's "arrogant" to question god. Otherwise you'd have to ask some tough questions like, why would anybody create life if it could suffer eternally? What sort of psycho punishes people for not believing the right thing? Who needs to kill their kid to erase the sins of people who haven't even been born yet--much less sinned. What about those sinners born before said savior? What about the good people born into other religions certain that Christians are way way off base and destined for hell...? What sort of asinine god would impregnate a woman against her will? And what sort of sadistic god lets guys who covet and kill into heaven fore "believing" the right myth--but damns all of mankind because some woman ate an apple in the friggin garden she was living in? It's simple to you because you are simple minded. To the rest of us, it's embarrasing that any adult could believe it.

 

[kurious_kathy]

KK, I spent 20 years in bible study, 4 years in seminary/mission training center and 2 years as a full time missionary. I know the talking points. The problem you keep ignoring is that not everyone gets to accept that gift and therefore are damned to eternal hell to suffer torment without end. If one should accept such a dumb idea.

I don't make anything complicated. Logic is logic and a happy hope for ones future won't change facts.

I don't see it this way. How do we really know a person that one day wasn't able to make a confession of faith in Christ, didn't come to faith the next day, year, or decade later. Some seeds are planted and grow later. God does the harvesting in His perfect time. We may never know which people actually come to know and receive Christ.
I have seen how powerful His word is though. It took ten long years of people praying for me when I walked away from my marriage and God. And guess what, because of His timing in my life everything is getting turned around. I believe in miracles because I am one. I never thought I would ever be here loving God the way I do now. And the amazing thing is I can really see His grace working in my own life, and the lives of other people I know and meet.
I'm not saying everything is always easy or feels good. We all have things that take time and sometimes we suffer in this life. You should know that even more than I if you were a missionary. We can't always see the hand of God working in the midst of dispair or tragedy, but He really is here with us.
Where were you a missionary for 2 years? My 13 year old dreams of doing that in Africa someday!

 

[Ducky]

Color me completely undurprised that kathy does not answer my questions.


Kathy: you are betraying your faith by acting as a troll. Why don't you try to actually answer *ALL* questions asked. You may actually surprise us.

But then I have doubts. You are not interested in discussion or debate. You want to convert. That is horrible arrogance on your part.

 

[kurious_kathy]

Color me completely undurprised that kathy does not answer my questions.


Kathy: you are betraying your faith by acting as a troll. Why don't you try to actually answer *ALL* questions asked. You may actually surprise us.

But then I have doubts. You are not interested in discussion or debate. You want to convert. That is horrible arrogance on your part.

Hi FS, Okay I see that I haven't been great about replying to every question, but I am getting a bit more aquainted with some of the things that need to be discussed or debated here. I will try to stay more open and responsive to what is being asked. And if I can't answer a direct question I will simple state I don't know, or I'm not sure. Is that fair to you?
I actually haven't been able to get on the PC as much as I use to.

 

[geetarmoore]

Hi RF, You aren't really hearing what I mean by this is a spiritual battle. The point is the victory was won by Jesus when he died on the cross to pay the price for sin. Because of His Holy sacrifice we are all saved. It's just a question if you can ever come to that one simple truth. Jesus died to redeem us all. It's a gift of grace and mercy. Why do people make it so complicated?
I am someone who is just very greatful about His gift of love and enjoy sharing it.

Why should we believe in the 'gift' of salvation, Kathy, when the story has these flaws;

1) It's a pretty bizarre premise. That an all-powerful, all knowing God would take this way - to sacrifice his son/himself - to give the world a 'gift' that he could have just as well done in a myriad of better ways.

2) The story parallels in near completeness to multiple other earlier pagan salvation figure stories.

3) If the events of Jesus did take place, No one cared at the time, and they only began to be written about 40 years after the fact.

4) The Gospels are a complete mess. If this story is historically accurate as related by Mark, then John really came in and re-wrote the 'history' 50 years later, darn near 100 years after the supposed crucifixion. How did he know the history better than the author of Mark, when he was more so removed from it?

5) The resurrection, the pinnacle event in regards to Christianity (Without it, there is no Christian religion), is represented so poorly that a single story which combines the events of Easter morning as told in the 4 gospels is IMPOSSIBLE to create in a chronological way.

So the question is; What is there to cause someone to believe, when even the evidence in the bible itself is so poor and contradictory?

The best one can be in regards to the existence of a historical Jesus Christ is agnostic. When it comes to his divinity and the authenticity of his story, lets just say the 'proof' gets even worse.

We've been laughing at the 'beliefs' of Scientologist's at work this week in light of the whole South Park fiasco. The Christians are REALLY getting off on just how 'stupid' the Xenu stories are... But seriously - how more 'stupid' are the Scientologist's claims than that of the average Christian? In reality, Christianity is the benefactor of a 2000 year head start over Scientology. That's the difference.

 

[Complexity]

Where were you a missionary for 2 years? My 13 year old dreams of doing that in Africa someday!

Still preaching, eh?

If I remember correctly, RandFan was a somewhat different type of missionary than one you would approve of.

Please tell your child to leave Africa alone - they've got enough problems there already.

 

[Genesius]

Color me completely undurprised that kathy does not answer my questions.

You and me both. I mean, I try to be presentable in public. I brush my teeth, use deodorant fairly regularly, and yet I still can't get kathy to answer me. Am I such a horrible person. . .?

Look kathy, I'm such a nice guy I'll even repost my question here, from post #1607 in this thread:

Kathy, here's one I've asked you before and you've never seen fit to answer me. But I've got a few minutes to kill so I'll try again.

As a flawed human, my compassion and love for my fellow human is much less than the awesome love God feels for us all, right? So why is it that I can't imaging ever being able to sentence another human being to eternal torment? Not Hitler, Stalin, Fred Phelps, nobody who has ever lived deserves eternal punishment in my flawed, human opinion. So how can God condemn a large portion of his creation if his love for us is so much greater?

Sorry Kathy, but so long as your god can stomach the idea of Hell, he's not worthy of my worship. He just doesn't live up to my moral standards.

 

[Roadtoad]

Kathy isn't going to respond. Not until your questions fit her script.

Sorry, folks, but that's the way she's programmed. She doesn't think, she generates output. That's the problem.

 

[Genesius]

Kathy isn't going to respond. Not until your questions fit her script.

Sorry, folks, but that's the way she's programmed. She doesn't think, she generates output. That's the problem.

Yeah, I know. I keep hoping I'll catch her on a day when she's in the mood for a challenge, and trying to reconcile God's Infinite Love^TM with the incredible evil of eterrnal punishment will cause her brain to melt down & run out of her ears.

 

[RandFan]

I don't see it this way.

Then you are willfully blind. Millions of people throughout history died without even hearing the name Christ. They are all in eternal torment because the people who dreamed up your fantasy couldn't come up with a better plan.

I have seen how powerful His word is though.

It's called perception. Scientists have been studying this phenomenon for some time and it is understood to an extremely high degree. It can be predicted and manipulated see Darren Brown. But then your job is to not listen. To not read anything that is contrary to your position. You know the truth so why waste your time. You are no different than a Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Shinto, Sceintologist, Jehovas Witness, Mormon. You just see yourself differently. If you were wrong you couldn't find out because you won't allow it just as those other people of other religions won't allow it.

If there was a god I could find out. I could change my mind. I don't reject the idea of god. I just don't have any evidence and I have lots of scientific information why people believe stupid things. So until I get evidence showing me that there is a god I have no reason to waste my time with the fantasy.

Where were you a missionary for 2 years? My 13 year old dreams of doing that in Africa someday!

Southern California. Tell your son that life is short. Service to ones fellow man is a grand thing. I would recommend helping people with their material needs rather than spreading around some fantasy.

 

[Ducky]

Hi FS, Okay I see that I haven't been great about replying to every question, but I am getting a bit more aquainted with some of the things that need to be discussed or debated here. I will try to stay more open and responsive to what is being asked. And if I can't answer a direct question I will simple state I don't know, or I'm not sure. Is that fair to you?
I actually haven't been able to get on the PC as much as I use to.

Quite frankly, this response is pure bullsh*t.

You started this thread LAST YEAR. You don't need any more time to be aquianted with anything on this forum.

 

[Ossai]

kurious_kathy

We may never know which people actually come to know and receive Christ.

That is easy. The bible explicitly states that god decided who will be saved prior to their birth. If the knowledge that you are saved is not intrinsically know at birth then it’s all the devil setting you up to mislead others. Yes this is official Christian church doctrine. Since you are so religiously knowledgeable I’ll let you tell me which denomination (btw, there is more than one correct answer).

I can really see His grace working in my own life, and the lives of other people I know and meet.

Give some concrete examples where all natural causes have been eliminated.

We all have things that take time and sometimes we suffer in this life.

This goes directly counter to Christian doctrine. Again, since you are so religiously knowledgeable I’ll let you tell me which denomination (btw, there is more than one correct answer).

Ossai

 

[wolfgirl]

I don't see it this way. How do we really know a person that one day wasn't able to make a confession of faith in Christ, didn't come to faith the next day, year, or decade later. Some seeds are planted and grow later. God does the harvesting in His perfect time. We may never know which people actually come to know and receive Christ.

You continue to talk about people just coming to faith in Jesus as if they always have a choice.

The question has been and still remains...what about those who have never heard of Jesus? You must realize that there are millions of people throughout history who have never even had any exposure to your religion. Children growing up in little villages throughout India. Those who live in the deepest jungles. Or even just those in civilized countries where christianity is not practiced (imagine that!).

You do realize, don't you, that THE MAJORITY of people on Earth even today are NOT christians. Your beliefs are considered by MOST PEOPLE on Earth as being wrong.

So by your standards (that people must accept Jesus as their savior, blah, blah, blah), in order not to suffer eternal damnation, you are condemning most people on Earth (including millions of children) to hell for something they couldn't possibly even do anything about. If they never even heard of your boy wonder, JC, and his big, bad dad, how can they possibly save themselves from eternal suffering and torment?

Your god would have them all burn in eternal flames for something over which they have absolutely no control.

And that's the question that several people here are trying to get you to answer.