The God Paradox

[Leumas]

And yet that is exactly what Leumas and others are imagining. Mocking the idea that they are not "true Christians" (because, to them, they most certainly *are* true Christians!)

This statement is a perfidious mendacity ... and of course you know that very well... or else you have not bothered to read any of my posts.

And they followed him BECAUSE of their christian beliefs... had it not been for those christian beliefs they would not have given him a moment's consideration... which goes to show that christianity is a catalyst for evil.

Moreover... Hitler killed no one... whether he was a christian for real or not he personally did not gas or shoot his millions of victims... he had christian believers who followed him do it for him.

Whether he was an evil man or a good man... his evil deeds were enhanced amplified extended aided and abetted by the religion and other men who were not evil themselves because he was able to rally them behind their religion which gave him FIAT to do his evil deeds.

Besides... trying to say that religion does not cause evil unless someone is already evil is hilarious... because all they are doing is saying that religion does not have the power to make evil people good but rather enhances evil people's evil.... which... in and of itself is an admittance that religion is a force of evil but not of good....

...
Apologists want to befuddle people with this ruse of "not a true scotsman christian" fallacy... they want to perpetuate the perfidy that religion is divine but people profane it... ever pulling the wool over minds to prevent them realizing the fact that religion is an evil artifice devised by evil men precisely to control the herds of sheep into stampeding whenever they want them to and to obeisantly and servilely and willingly offer their wool and milk and flesh in the name of brigand Kings and foppish Shamanic poltroons and their imaginary phantasmal watchdogs and ghostly ever vigilant sentinels.

Here are currently millions of good men and women doing evil on daily basis because of their religion...

• https://www.latimes.com/world-natio...ationalists-march-jerusalem-palestinian-anger
• https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2...ims-clash-in-central-african-republic/100652/
• https://aeon.co/essays/buddhism-can-be-as-violent-as-any-other-religion

 

[stanfr]

This statement is a perfidious mendacity ... and of course you know that very well... or else you have not bothered to read any of my posts.

Do you believe all christians are evil? There are only two acceptable answers.

 

[Leumas]

Do you believe all christians are evil? There are only two acceptable answers.

A risible false dichotomy... here is another answer....

There are three ways one can do harm

• Directly by doing an action that harms
• Indirectly
  • Actively - By aiding of facilitating another person to do harm
  • Passively – By standing by and doing nothing to stop a harm

Obviously your dad is not doing the direct harm. However, your dad and all church goers are doing the indirect part.

By giving money to the church he is facilitating it. By supporting it and not speaking out against any actions he is passively doing harm.

One instance of such indirect harm is by supporting the Church’s political view. Despite the fact that Churches are not supposed to disseminate or advocate any political party…they do. So by tacitly supporting a religious moron to become a president or governor or congressman or senator or even mayor he is causing harm on local and Global scales.

By paying the tithe or more to the Church he is helping to give it power that translates into influence. This enables the church to make life hell for women who want to have control over their bodies or adult homosexuals who want to live in peace with their lovers. Bringing power to bear in order to thwart any research (e.g. stem cell) becomes much easier for moneyed and powerful organizations that work actively to undermine science.
When these churches have their way like what happened in Pennsylvania it results in harm in countless ways by hindering proper scientific education.

I call all this the Petri Dish Effect.
The matrix in a Petri Dish is not harmful…it is a sugary sweet medium upon which the bacteria feed. This bacteria is then free to turn virulent and thrive.
By hoping for and actively working towards precipitating the second coming he is basically hoping and working for the destruction of the world. Ask him for instance to find out how much money his church sends to Israel. Much of this money goes towards funding the fundamentalist settlements in Israel. This in turn creates more strive and perpetuates the enmity and hatred. Which in turn eventually causes death and misery if not global war (which is what they are hoping for).

Maybe if your dad realized this he may leave the church or at least refrain from funding it.

If your dad wants to give money then why not find a needy person in his neighborhood or give to some cancer research or some other such organizations.

Remind your dad that Jesus was utterly opposed to organized churches:
Matthew

 

[Leumas]

why not, and while we are at it i say we bring back the real gladiators, and pit those dang christians against the lions. We do it metaphorically in social media so might as well do it for real. use the sponsorship money to lower gas prices.

That is what christians are doing to America and by proxy to the rest of the world... but instead of gladiators it is other more modern formats.

And had you looked at any history ... you would know that they have done this throughout history too....

• Christian Atrocities
• Victims Of Christianity
• Christian Violence

 

[acbytesla]

And yet that is exactly what Leumas and others are imagining. Mocking the idea that they are not "true Christians" (because, to them, they most certainly *are* true Christians!)

The reality is far more complex. I was raised Christian by a mother who exemplified fundamental Christian beliefs: 1)love your neighbor 2)treat others the way you would be want to be treated 3)serve others, unselfishly etc etc. She literally would have thrown herself in front of a bus to save me. She was far from perfect, but her faith was the foundation of her beliefs, as it is for millions.

Yes it is far more complex. This exactly as how I was brought up. My mother sounds just like yours.
And if it was just this, I certainly wouldn't care. In fact it would be easy to embrace despite the ridiculous miracles.

I grew up and learned to think critically, and of course now I know that religion as a whole is a bad force in society, for the fundamental reason that is founded on irrationality and not science. If religion were truly good, it would not be so nebulous and subjective that it could so easily be used for all sorts of evil. That is undeniable.

But you cannot lump *all* of religion or specific religious beliefs into a one size fits all sandwich that declares everyone and everything associated with religion as pure evil. That is why people like myself (and several others who have fled Leumas' bullying or stick around for more verbal onslaught) are turned off by Leumas' beliigerent style. Because it is *exactly* like pissing on my mother's grave, and demonstrates a lack of understanding of the nuances involved. It is disrespectful and disingenuous, and I believe it comes less from one's supposed dedication to rationality and skepticism and more from one's personal experience in life, being crapped on (pun intended) by someone or some group who are/were religious. That is what Warp was referring to by atheist obsession--i may disagree with him on political views but he is spot on there.

No it's not like pissing on your mom or my mom's grave. It just isn't. Leumas may be direct and you might find his words offensive, but ridiculous ideas are deserving of ridicule.

I find it offensive that Christians labeled many unbelievers as witches and burned them at the stake or crushed them with boulders. Or drowned them in rivers or tortured them on the rack. Or draw and quartered them. Or used the bible to justify savery in America. Or discriminate against homosexuals in employment, housing and association. Or teach against science.

Or prevent women from obtaining birth control. And now prevent women from ending an unwanted pregnancy.

I remember as a child being terrified of hell because I found the idea of a magic man in the sky not very believable.

My attitude towards Christianity has evolved from simple disbelief to disgust.

 

[acbytesla]

Do you believe all christians are evil? There are only two acceptable answers.

I don’t believe Christians are evil. I do however believe that Christianity is evil.

 

[Leumas]

...
Because it is *exactly* like pissing on my mother's grave, and demonstrates a lack of understanding of the nuances involved.....

At least some people had graves... unlike the nuances involved in the piles of victims of christianity that were dumped in mass graves after having been tortured or burnt alive or gassed and turned into soap.

But... are you sure that posting stuff on a forum on the internet is "EXACTLY LIKE" the sordidness you wrote.

 

[stanfr]

A risible false dichotomy... here is another answer....

Nonsense, and it was quite predictable that you would avoid responding. I asked you a specific personal question: Do *you* believe all christians are evil? I suppose there is a third answer ("I don't know") but you wan't even go that far, just try to deflect and dodge. From your response however it seems like you lean toward simply responding "no" which leads me to wonder why you simply just don't have the discipline to respond that way.

 

[stanfr]

I don’t believe Christians are evil. I do however believe that Christianity is evil.

i can understand that position, although it somewhat begs the question of whether one who believes in an evil set of principles is evil as a result. There are 'good' people I suppose who support Donald Trump, but there comes a point....

 

[Leumas]

Yes it is far more complex. This exactly as how I was brought up. My mother sounds just like yours.
And if it was just this, I certainly wouldn't care. In fact it would be easy to embrace despite the ridiculous miracles.

No it's not like pissing on your mom or my mom's grave. It just isn't. Leumas may be direct and you might find his words offensive, but ridiculous ideas are deserving of ridicule.

I find it offensive that Christians labeled many unbelievers as witches and burned them at the stake or crushed them with boulders. Or drowned them in rivers or tortured them on the rack. Or draw and quartered them. Or used the bible to justify savery in America. Or discriminate against homosexuals in employment, housing and association. Or teach against science.

Or prevent women from obtaining birth control. And now prevent women from ending an unwanted pregnancy.

I remember as a child being terrified of hell because I found the idea of a magic man in the sky not very believable.

My attitude towards Christianity has evolved from simple disbelief to disgust.

but ridiculous ideas are deserving of ridicule[/HILITE].
...

• “Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.” ― Thomas Jefferson

 

[stanfr]

Yes it is far more complex. This exactly as how I was brought up. My mother sounds just like yours.
And if it was just this, I certainly wouldn't care. In fact it would be easy to embrace despite the ridiculous miracles.




No it's not like pissing on your mom or my mom's grave. It just isn't. Leumas may be direct and you might find his words offensive, but ridiculous ideas are deserving of ridicule.
I find it offensive that Christians labeled many unbelievers as witches and burned them at the stake or crushed them with boulders. Or drowned them in rivers or tortured them on the rack. Or draw and quartered them. Or used the bible to justify savery in America. Or discriminate against homosexuals in employment, housing and association. Or teach against science.

Or prevent women from obtaining birth control. And now prevent women from ending an unwanted pregnancy.

I remember as a child being terrified of hell because I found the idea of a magic man in the sky not very believable.

My attitude towards Christianity has evolved from simple disbelief to disgust.

Agreed, and yes our background sounds somewhat similar although I believed as a kid, just had a lot of unanswered questions. Took me several decades to arrive at disgust LOL. I agree with ridiculing ridiculous ideas, sometimes even the people who accept those ideas, just not a blanket disdain for all who harbor certain beliefs--to me that reeks of hypocrisy and counterproductive reasoning.

 

[stanfr]

• “Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.” ― Thomas Jefferson

It's funny cause when I read your Jefferson quote (I graduated from his alma mater, incidentally) I immediately thought of some responses to a recent Jul 4 social media post that quoted Jefferson. They were rabidly complaining that Jefferson was a slave owner and rapist. Seems no one can be happy with anyone these days...

 

[Leumas]

i can understand that position, although it somewhat begs the question of whether one who believes in an evil set of principles is evil as a result. There are 'good' people I suppose who support Donald Trump, but there comes a point....

If some subscribes to a religion that tells them to do evil things…. then they follow the commandments and tenets of this religion, the result is evil actions regardless of whether the person is good or bad.

 

[Leumas]

Nonsense, and it was quite predictable that you would avoid responding. I asked you a specific personal question: Do *you* believe all christians are evil? I suppose there is a third answer ("I don't know") but you wan't even go that far, just try to deflect and dodge. From your response however it seems like you lean toward simply responding "no" which leads me to wonder why you simply just don't have the discipline to respond that way.

Yet another perfidious statement... as is evinced by my response that you are responding to by saying it is not a response ... and to anyone who can read it.

.. Do *you* believe all christians are evil? I suppose there is a third answer ("I don't know") but you wan't even go that far, just try to deflect and dodge. From your response however it seems like you lean toward simply responding "no" which leads me to wonder why you simply just don't have the discipline to respond that way.

... amazing perfidy as evinced by the fact that I actually gave you another answer in the very post you are responding to... I suggest you go read it.... and the post actually says...

A risible false dichotomy... here is another answer....

Amazing... I mean this is comedy of the most tragic kind.

 

[Leumas]

Do you believe all christians are evil? There are only two acceptable answers.

.... and demonstrates a lack of understanding of the nuances involved. It is disrespectful and disingenuous, and I believe it comes less from one's supposed dedication to rationality and skepticism and more from one's personal experience in life, being crapped on (pun intended) by someone or some group who are/were religious. ...

 

[acbytesla]

Agreed, and yes our background sounds somewhat similar although I believed as a kid, just had a lot of unanswered questions. Took me several decades to arrive at disgust LOL. I agree with ridiculing ridiculous ideas, sometimes even the people who accept those ideas, just not a blanket disdain for all who harbor certain beliefs--to me that reeks of hypocrisy and counterproductive reasoning.

It took me decades too. I went to Bible School in the summer until the school had enough of my skepticism. But I also was sent to Bible Camp as a teen. (A good place to get laid, BTW)

I have no disdain for Christians. I do have a disdain for Christianity. I've had it with the infantile philosophy. The preaching that faith is a good thing.

I've thought about this very subject a lot. How do I reconcile my disgust with Christianity and still have so many Christian friends? My closest friends are devout Catholics. One of whom had a house where the back door was maybe 100 feet from the back door to the Blessed Sacrament rectory in Seattle. That friend is a Master Chef. His parents owned a restaurant with two Michelin Stars. I had dinner at his house with priests from the church many times. Weirdly, these people hardly seem religious.

This compared to my Methodist and Baptist upbring where i grew to despise the phony Christians from those churches.

Stephen Colbert is my favorite late night host. He's smart as hell. But he's also a devout Catholic. He's also pro-choice and progressive. I can't dislike this guy.

 

[stanfr]

If some subscribes to a religion that tells him to do evil things…. then they follow the commandments and tenets of this religion, the result is evil actions regardless of whether the person is good or bad.

So how do you determine whether "the person is good or bad" then? You implicitly suggest that one can, but then you weasel out of it by saying their actions are evil but they may not be.

Yet another perfidious statement... as is evinced by my response that you are responding to by saying it is not a response ... and to anyone who can read it.

... amazing perfidy as evinced by the fact that I actually gave you another answer in the very post you are responding to... I suggest you go read it.... and the post actually says..

Amazing... I mean this is comedy of the most tragic kind.

It aint funny at all, except perhaps to you as the architect of this pointless thread.
But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Since you insist my question was a 'false dichotomy'--do you believe that "some" Christians can be good?

 

[stanfr]

It took me decades too. I went to Bible School in the summer until the school had enough of my skepticism. But I also was sent to Bible Camp as a teen. (A good place to get laid, BTW)

I have no disdain for Christians. I do have a disdain for Christianity. I've had it with the infantile philosophy. The preaching that faith is a good thing.

I've thought about this very subject a lot. How do I reconcile my disgust with Christianity and still have so many Christian friends? My closest friends are devout Catholics. One of whom had a house where the back door was maybe 100 feet from the back door to the Blessed Sacrament rectory in Seattle. That friend is a Master Chef. His parents owned a restaurant with two Michelin Stars. I had dinner at his house with priests from the church many times. Weirdly, these people hardly seem religious.

This compared to my Methodist and Baptist upbring where i grew to despise the phony Christians from those churches.

Stephen Colbert is my favorite late night host. He's smart as hell. But he's also a devout Catholic. He's also pro-choice and progressive. I can't dislike this guy.

Yep, yep, and yep. Even down to Colbert. If you wanna see another brilliant reconciliation with faith, watch Ana Navarro recently tell off the Christian right by proclaiming that her faith is her own but she has no business imposing Catholic beliefs on others. My whole extended family is Catholic, all good people although many of them would not approve of my godlessness lol.
See, it is possible to be critical of religion and the religious without being a dick about it.

 

[stanfr]

You still don't get it--it flies completely over your head! Why is that, Leumas??

If you agree that there are nuances, you *must* agree that *some* christians are good. Or at least a mix of good and evil. So why can't you simply answer the question: "Do you believe all christians are evil?" with a simple "NO"???
It is the only logical response, no?? And yet you cannot muster the ability to simply state the logical conclusion...

 

[Leumas]

Agreed, and yes our background sounds somewhat similar although I believed as a kid, just had a lot of unanswered questions. Took me several decades to arrive at disgust LOL. I agree with ridiculing ridiculous ideas, sometimes even the people who accept those ideas, just not a blanket disdain for all who harbor certain beliefs--to me that reeks of hypocrisy and counterproductive reasoning.

Perfidious strawmanning... none said that... all have said religion is the one that makes good people do bad things.

Although... the ones who do really deserve disdain and derision for their "counterproductive hypocrisy" are the apologists who pretend and beguile and inveigle and use linguistic legerdemain and nasty sophistry to peddle and hawk for their nasty religions.... these people are real mountebanks who deserve real execration.