Is changing my dads mind the right thing to do?

[Brombadil]

My dad is a "born again" christian and has been subscribing to this belief for almost 10 years now. I have been unfortunate enough to be apart of the classic God Exists VS Everyone else who dosen't share my particular view about how the universe started debate for a long time now. I have tried everything I can possibly do to explain to him what he believes is not only irrational, but his intuitive decision making process to believe in Christianity in the first place could have easily led him to believe any nonsensical mystical garbage that was thrown at him.

Through our talks I have learned of his personal reasons in which led him to his beliefs. His biggest sell for religion lies in the fact he feels he failed many things in life (marriage, kids, etc) and the idea that hes over 50 and botched the 1 life he has to live dosent sit too well with him. Divine forgiveness, and eternal life for obvious reasons seems the clear choice for him.

He is not a fundamentalist, or a hard core churchy. He is willing to disagree with many aspects of the way church organizations are run, hypocrisy of believers, but hes not willing to accept the possibility hes wrong on the bottom line "Christ is our savior and died on the cross for our sins".

He originally tried to throw some evidence (ID, IC, etc) and some other woo information that was probably supplied to him by apologetics during his initial correspondence with the church when he showed up down on his luck "looking for answers", when all of his assertions were shot down the conversation usually ends like this:

"Until you read the bible cover to cover your opinion about it is invalid"
"2 things dad, If i fully understand the premise of your book in regards to god creating the universe, man, jesus, etc, And this turns out to be wrong, I dont need to read the story of jesus going into town to heal some sick folks, because your premise is incorrect, the rest is worthless. Secondly, you have discarded the quran, and any other religious book that claims the same thing yours does without reading it, so why does this not apply to you?"

"I cant explain it I read it and i was totally convinced"
"Theres a muslim across the world right now who feels the exact same way you do about a completely different book"
"...."


Is there a way to convince my dad to let go? What argument can I present him that might push this forward? I have tried absolutely everything I can think of.


My more pressing question though, is changing his mind and taking his belief away the right thing? My dad isnt sailing to africa telling people condoms are sin, hes not shooting up abortion clinics, or advocating creationism in biology curriculum. Hes just a guy on his own who wants to know theres a meaning to the bad things hes gone through, he wants to feel like hes got something to look forward to.


On a global scale, you could certainly argue religion and any belief in sky gods on the basis of nothing are not beneficial for the future of the human race, but if I weigh this on a global scale, letting my dad believe whatever he wants in his small corner of the earth for the next 30-40 years not hurting no one isnt going to adversely affect anyone I think.

And on a personal and interpersonal small scale, I dont think his beliefs have a hugely negative impact either, other than giving us something to argue about.

What do you think? I have lurked this forum for about 2 months now before registering and I know theres people here who are much smarter than I am, any advice or insight into my dilemma would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Minoosh]

Why would you want to change your dad's mind?

It's a serious question and in general I'd say in practice you probably can't change your dad's mind. You're trying to reason him out of a position he didn't reason himself into.

People arrive at their beliefs, why hassle someone over it if they're not hurting anyone? Unless both of you just like to argue, which is perfectly legit

 

[elipse]

My parents are Christian Scientists. That means they will probably die young. It also means they use "god told me to" to justify all kinds of decisions in their lives, big and small. It also means they suffer stupid needless pain for any number of stupid small injuries or illnesses.

Which is all to point out that their religion probably impacts their lives in more concrete and negative ways than your dad's religion does.

I don't try to change their minds. I do, on occasion, try to convince them that they should see a doctor for this or that, but I do that by focusing on the worry they are causing their children, not the total nonsense of their beliefs. (So far I've been unsuccessful, although they do admit in the moment that they shouldn't worry us...)

At this point in their lives, changing the beliefs that give them comfort, and by which they have lived nearly 60 years, would more than likely cause more grief and unhappiness than I can justify. Assuming I could change their minds in the first place, which I probably can't.

So, since you say your dad isn't teaching creationism to students, or picketing gay peoples' funerals, I don't see any reason to even try to change his beliefs. Of course, I think he owes you the same courtesy.

Oh, and robust conversations about belief aren't the same as trying to dissuade, provided both parties are interested in having a robust conversation.

 

[Brainache]

If you can manage to have long discussions with him about all this stuff without getting too shouty, I'd say let him keep his beliefs. At least it gives you two something to talk about.

For about the last fifteen or twenty years of my father's life we barely talked at all, except for banalities about the weather and stuff like that, at least you are talking about something meaningful to the old man.

 

[Brombadil]

My hope would be seeing him look and find something or someone to believe in that was meaningful instead of deluding himself with magical things, and it's also because I cant help but resent him in a sense. Im not saying I hate him by any means, but considering how someone prays and sings songs about hoping for the world to end, and being ok with the fact that all of his kids will go to hell and suffer for a bajillion years as long as he feels like hes "saved".
Again, I dont hate him, but its hard to respect someone who dosent have any regret about the whole world going to hell as long as it works for them.

 

[Brainache]

My hope would be seeing him look and find something or someone to believe in that was meaningful instead of deluding himself with magical things, and it's also because I cant help but resent him in a sense. Im not saying I hate him by any means, but considering how someone prays and sings songs about hoping for the world to end, and being ok with the fact that all of his kids will go to hell and suffer for a bajillion years as long as he feels like hes "saved".
Again, I dont hate him, but its hard to respect someone who dosent have any regret about the whole world going to hell as long as it works for them.

OK. That makes sense.

Sounds to me like he's fallen for Pascal's Wager ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager ), in which case you might want to try the Homer Simpson line of reasoning: "What if you've chosen the wrong religion? Everytime you pray, you're just making the real God angrier!"

Or you could point out to him how distressing it is for you that your Father keeps saying you'll go to hell... How would that make him feel?

 

[Brombadil]

OK. That makes sense.

Sounds to me like he's fallen for Pascal's Wager, in which case you might want to try the Homer Simpson line of reasoning: "What if you've chosen the wrong religion? Everytime you pray, you're just making the real God angrier!"

Or you could point out to him how distressing it is for you that your Father keeps saying you'll go to hell... How would that make him feel?

I have brought up pascals wager, I have tried to explain to him on top of this his religion is no more plausible than scientology, greek mythology, mormons, muslims, anything, so why does he think he can be sure?
All this to no avail.

I have also tried to tell him how I feel about his beliefs in terms of morality. How can you sit there as a father and say "Id give my life for anyone in my family in a second" but on the same note not give one damn about their eternal situation. Why even care? whats saving 100 years of life going to matter if someones going to be eternally punished forever? It turns something real like loving your family unconditionally into a complete farse.

 

[Brainache]

I have brought up pascals wager, I have tried to explain to him on top of this his religion is no more plausible than scientology, greek mythology, mormons, muslims, anything, so why does he think he can be sure?
All this to no avail.

I have also tried to tell him how I feel about his beliefs in terms of morality. How can you sit there as a father and say "Id give my life for anyone in my family in a second" but on the same note not give one damn about their eternal situation. Why even care? whats saving 100 years of life going to matter if someones going to be eternally punished forever? It turns something real like loving your family unconditionally into a complete farse.

Well, it looks like you aren't going to change his mind with logic.

I guess there could be another reason why he is so keen on his new-found religion... Is there a woman involved? Just because the old guy is over fifty doesn't mean he's immune to the debilitating effects a beautiful woman can inflict on a man's powers of reasoning...

Seriously try it: Next time you are in the immediate presence of a woman you think is beautiful, try doing some mental arithmetics. Just to see if you can...

 

[Robrob]

Little to be gained by debating him and lots to be lost.

 

[slingblade]

Put a copy of Demon Haunted World on the coffee table and then mind your own business (she said in a friendly, smiling way).

You realize his concern for your way of seeing things is probably as great as your concern for him, and for essentially the same reasons, yes? You each think the other is thinking nonsense. Perhaps even dangerous nonsense.

I get pretty upset when well-meaning people try to get me to change because they don't agree with what I think. It's none of their business. And what they think is none of mine.

It's already been said that you can't reason someone out of something they didn't reason themselves into. In point of fact, you can't reason someone out of anything. The reasoning has to come from them. They have to seek it, to want it. You can't do much to affect that, really.

All I'm saying is turn this around, and imagine your dad is the one asking the kinds of questions you're asking here, about you and your beliefs. "How do I change my child's mind about my religion and get him to believe it?"

Can you think of anything your dad could do or say that would make this happen?

If not, then maybe there's not much you can do to affect your dad's beliefs, either. Especially if he's not questioning what he believes, nor desires to change his belief.

You don't have to like what your dad thinks, or what he believes, but it isn't your place to change his mind, because it's his mind. You can work on his attitude, perhaps. If he's expressing thoughts about people going to hell the way you've mentioned, tell him you don't want to hear it, and leave if it doesn't stop. You don't have to put up with disrespect. Telling your kids they're going to hell is pretty disrespectful. I mean, if he's doing that; I don't know.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

To the OP
Is changing my dads mind the right thing to do?

My 2 cents:
It would be the wrong thing to do. As others have already pointed out:
1/. It is none of your business.
2/. You won't change his mind anyway unless he is ready to have it changed.
3/. You will only damage your relationship with him if it becomes a place of ongoing disagreement.

 

[Brombadil]

Put a copy of Demon Haunted World on the coffee table and then mind your own business (she said in a friendly, smiling way).

You realize his concern for your way of seeing things is probably as great as your concern for him, and for essentially the same reasons, yes? You each think the other is thinking nonsense. Perhaps even dangerous nonsense.

I get pretty upset when well-meaning people try to get me to change because they don't agree with what I think. It's none of their business. And what they think is none of mine.

It's already been said that you can't reason someone out of something they didn't reason themselves into. In point of fact, you can't reason someone out of anything. The reasoning has to come from them. They have to seek it, to want it. You can't do much to affect that, really.

All I'm saying is turn this around, and imagine your dad is the one asking the kinds of questions you're asking here, about you and your beliefs. "How do I change my child's mind about my religion and get him to believe it?"

Can you think of anything your dad could do or say that would make this happen?

If not, then maybe there's not much you can do to affect your dad's beliefs, either. Especially if he's not questioning what he believes, nor desires to change his belief.

You don't have to like what your dad thinks, or what he believes, but it isn't your place to change his mind, because it's his mind. You can work on his attitude, perhaps. If he's expressing thoughts about people going to hell the way you've mentioned, tell him you don't want to hear it, and leave if it doesn't stop. You don't have to put up with disrespect. Telling your kids they're going to hell is pretty disrespectful. I mean, if he's doing that; I don't know.

I dont know how to quote individual paragraphs if someone could enlighten me on that I can make posts like these more aesthetically pleasing in the future.


"Put a copy of Demon Haunted World on the coffee table and then mind your own business (she said in a friendly, smiling way). "

-Im gonna read that one myself, never knew about it until you mentioned it. thanks.

"I get pretty upset when well-meaning people try to get me to change because they don't agree with what I think. It's none of their business. And what they think is none of mine."

-Largely I would agree but the respect of others beliefs and opinions is not a black and white issue. there is a **** load of grey.

On one end of the scale, is a belief or opinion that dosent really affect anyone and in this instance it really is not important what other people think.
"I like cakes over pies"
"I like to play football over hockey"

In this sense your right I can tell someone at work I watch shark week for 2 hours when i get home and that might seem like a waste to him, and on the flipside I find him watching grandmasters golf tournaments on a saturday or sunday is an equal waste. Some people will actually try and push on you that "Oh come on man thats so gay" and its easy to see why you would be upset, but this isnt what im proposing.

it gets to the point when your beliefs can impact others when you have to start thinking about drawing a line.
"Im a nazi and I hate jews and thats none of your business"
"I hate gays and fags cause god said so and thats none of your business"
"I believe im saved and your a heretic sinner burn in hell kthxbye."

a lot of religious people I have asked in regards to why they believe what they do i usually get an answer like
"Its just my belief" or "its my faith"
Its the idea that your opinions in certain areas are absolved of criticism or scrutiny that seems wrong. If we cant question ourselves and each other, how can we better ourselves?

Even then im not gonna start pointing out the million and one ways thats wrong, I usually leave it at that, the only time I ever discuss religion with believers outside of my family is when they might make the mistake of saying "theres evidence for god", thats when i get curious.


"All I'm saying is turn this around, and imagine your dad is the one asking the kinds of questions you're asking here, about you and your beliefs. "How do I change my child's mind about my religion and get him to believe it?"

-This is my favorite one. The monumental difference between my dad and me is I am willing to accept ideas I hold to be wrong, and I'm also willing to entertain other ideas I dont hold even if they seem to be very unfeasable, so long as they make a case for themself. The problem with my dads standpoint is his belief is completely unreasonable, and theres absolutely no shred of proof to put it on a level above the belief in fairys or santa clause.

He on the other hand will not regard his ideas as wrong, no matter how much evidence is presented before him, no matter what arguments are made.

If my dad wanted to challenge my beliefs on anything, the door is always open, but he must present a case, or were going to discuss magical nothings all day from jesus to the easter bunny.


"You don't have to like what your dad thinks,"
I know.
"it isn't your place to change his mind"
To an extent, depends on where the line needs to be drawn.
"If he's expressing thoughts about people going to hell the way you've mentioned, tell him you don't want to hear it, and leave if it doesn't stop. You don't have to put up with disrespect. Telling your kids they're going to hell is pretty disrespectful. I mean, if he's doing that; I don't know."

-hes not bellowing out burn in hell heathen, but its all the implications of his belief system that make it depressing to think about when your with him. Its like a kid whos trying to grow up and get his dad to notice him and make him proud or something.

But in this case Its going up to your dad saying Hey Dad! I finally became an astronaut! Im married with 3 kids, i drive a ferrari, I have an amazing wife, and life is good!
"Your a sinner and you and your kids and your wife are gonna burn in hell"


Otherwise I agree with the things you said.

As for one of the other posters i wanted to quote what you said in regards to the woman situation.
He is remarried and I believe my stepmom originally started looking into the church a few times before she dragged him along to get sucked in. And that also is a good thing to bring up in retrospect because its not implausible to assume that if god is the only thing holding their marriage together, that would be another on the list of bad things to happen and get nothing in return for the truth.
Sigh.
Guess theres nothing I can do.

 

[Leumas]

The Petri Dish Effect

There are three ways one can do harm

• Directly by doing an action that harms
• Indirectly
  • Actively - By aiding of facilitating another person to do harm
  • Passively – By standing by and doing nothing to stop a harm

Obviously your dad is not doing the direct harm. However, your dad and all church goers are doing the indirect part.

By giving money to the church he is facilitating it. By supporting it and not speaking out against any actions he is passively doing harm.

One instance of such indirect harm is by supporting the Church’s political view. Despite the fact that Churches are not supposed to disseminate or advocate any political party…they do. So by tacitly supporting a religious moron to become a president or governor or congressman or senator or even mayor he is causing harm on local and Global scales.

By paying the tithe or more to the Church he is helping to give it power that translates into influence. This enables the church to make life hell for women who want to have control over their bodies or adult homosexuals who want to live in peace with their lovers. Bringing power to bear in order to thwart any research (e.g. stem cell) becomes much easier for moneyed and powerful organizations that work actively to undermine science.
When these churches have their way like what happened in Pennsylvania it results in harm in countless ways by hindering proper scientific education.

I call all this the Petri Dish Effect.

The matrix in a Petri Dish is not harmful…it is a sugary sweet medium upon which the bacteria feed. This bacteria is then free to turn virulent and thrive.

By hoping for and actively working towards precipitating the second coming he is basically hoping and working for the destruction of the world. Ask him for instance to find out how much money his church sends to Israel. Much of this money goes towards funding the fundamentalist settlements in Israel. This in turn creates more strive and perpetuates the enmity and hatred. Which in turn eventually causes death and misery if not global war (which is what they are hoping for).

Maybe if your dad realized this he may leave the church or at least refrain from funding it.

If your dad wants to give money then why not find a needy person in his neighborhood or give to some cancer research or some other such organizations.

Remind your dad that Jesus was utterly opposed to organized churches:
Matthew

{6:5} And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. {6:6} But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. {6:7} But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. {6:8} Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

 

[devnull]

If he's not hurting anyone, and gains benefit from his delusion, why bother him?

 

[slingblade]

I dont know how to quote individual paragraphs if someone could enlighten me on that I can make posts like these more aesthetically pleasing in the future.

You started correctly, with this post, by using the "quote" button. It began with a unique attribution tag, which creates the "Originally Posted by" text and gives a redirect arrow button back to the post of mine you're quoting. To close the tag and isolate the paragraph you want, use [/quote ] but without the space I left at the end there.

To isolate subsequent quotes, you could use that attribution tag, but you don't have to. Just [quote ] and [/quote ] without spaces will do.

"Put a copy of Demon Haunted World on the coffee table and then mind your own business (she said in a friendly, smiling way). "

-Im gonna read that one myself, never knew about it until you mentioned it. thanks.

You're welcome. There are other books out there, and that one gets recommended so much, it's almost a cliche', but it's just that good. And the Baloney Detection Kit it contains is invaluable.

"I get pretty upset when well-meaning people try to get me to change because they don't agree with what I think. It's none of their business. And what they think is none of mine."

-Largely I would agree but the respect of others beliefs and opinions is not a black and white issue. there is a **** load of grey.

On one end of the scale, is a belief or opinion that dosent really affect anyone and in this instance it really is not important what other people think.
"I like cakes over pies"
"I like to play football over hockey"

In this sense your right I can tell someone at work I watch shark week for 2 hours when i get home and that might seem like a waste to him, and on the flipside I find him watching grandmasters golf tournaments on a saturday or sunday is an equal waste. Some people will actually try and push on you that "Oh come on man thats so gay" and its easy to see why you would be upset, but this isnt what im proposing.

it gets to the point when your beliefs can impact others when you have to start thinking about drawing a line.
"Im a nazi and I hate jews and thats none of your business"
"I hate gays and fags cause god said so and thats none of your business"
"I believe im saved and your a heretic sinner burn in hell kthxbye."

Okay, so what you want is respect. Am I hearing you?

a lot of religious people I have asked in regards to why they believe what they do i usually get an answer like
"Its just my belief" or "its my faith"
Its the idea that your opinions in certain areas are absolved of criticism or scrutiny that seems wrong. If we cant question ourselves and each other, how can we better ourselves?

Not everyone is interested in bettering themselves, nor will they agree on what constitutes "bettering," or that they even need bettering. You should question yourself, but questioning other people turns into a mine-field pretty quickly. It makes people defensive, and that shuts down communication.

Also, like it or not, you only get to draw lines for people when they begin to cross yours. "I'm a nazi and I hate jews and thats none of your business" is perfectly true, so far as it goes. It may be your business if you're a Jew, and that person is disrespecting you, or worse, trying to harm you. But he's still entitled to his creepy, bigoted, ignorant opinion, regardless.

Even then im not gonna start pointing out the million and one ways thats wrong, I usually leave it at that, the only time I ever discuss religion with believers outside of my family is when they might make the mistake of saying "theres evidence for god", thats when i get curious.

I'm a convert. I was a bible-thumping Fundie from childhood, and didn't become atheist until my 40s. And I did it myself, because it's not something that someone else could do to me. I had questions and doubts all my life, but I also had oceans of fear and guilt. It took a long time, and some actual classes in critical thinking during my mid-life college education, to shed that.

So, I'm not at all curious. I know from the other side of it how the dissonance works. I've no need to discuss it, and I simply won't, outside this forum. I don't tell people I'm atheist--learned that lesson a very rough way--because it's none of their business. I don't discuss religion with friends. I don't have that many religious friends, and the ones I do have, I respect. I'd never try to change their beliefs, but if I had to insist on respect from them for mine, then I would. The best answer is not to discuss their religion or my atheism, so we don't.

"All I'm saying is turn this around, and imagine your dad is the one asking the kinds of questions you're asking here, about you and your beliefs. "How do I change my child's mind about my religion and get him to believe it?"

-This is my favorite one. The monumental difference between my dad and me is I am willing to accept ideas I hold to be wrong, and I'm also willing to entertain other ideas I dont hold even if they seem to be very unfeasable, so long as they make a case for themself. The problem with my dads standpoint is his belief is completely unreasonable, and theres absolutely no shred of proof to put it on a level above the belief in fairys or santa clause.

He on the other hand will not regard his ideas as wrong, no matter how much evidence is presented before him, no matter what arguments are made.

Then that's your answer, and as sad as it is, I suspect you've known that all along. You can't do a thing about what he believes, especially if he's not questioning, if he's not seeking answers, if he's not doubting.

All you can do is draw that respect line. And then stick to the line, even if that means the extreme of limiting or stopping contact. Some conversation along the lines of, "We don't share the same opinions or outlooks on this topic, and I don't want it to be a wedge between us. Let's agree to disagree and not discuss it. If we can't agree to that, and you insist on trying to make me feel some kind of guilt or shame or fear, then our relationship is in jeopardy, Dad."

Sorry, man. It's a tough row to hoe.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

And on a personal and interpersonal small scale, I dont think his beliefs have a hugely negative impact either, other than giving us something to argue about.

What do you think? I have lurked this forum for about 2 months now before registering and I know theres people here who are much smarter than I am, any advice or insight into my dilemma would be greatly appreciated.

I side with Kurt Vonnegut issue. Vonnegut was an atheist. He had a war buddy who was a Christian. His buddy found much solace in his Christian faith. Vonnegut said that he certainly could not accept that Christian faith, but envied his buddy because he could have that faith and find comfort in it. Vonnegut also championed extended families and ritual. These things can help people and make people feel better--even if they are nonsense. He suggested government issued “family” names and rituals such as weekly spaghetti dinners. Completely meaningless. But effective. He certainly would not deny his buddy the meaningless Christian faith that brought him so much comfort.

When it spreads to influencing others, there is a problem. Even for individuals, there can be problems. But if somebody has reached the end of their rope and they cling to some nonsense to hold on, they should hold on. From John Lennon: Whatever gets you through the night, ’salright, ’salright.

We are not robots. Atheism is the truth. But it is harsh. Existentialism isn’t easy. It isn’t comfortable.

If your father depends on his Christian faith to hold on and you take that away, what will you replace it with? If you have nothing to replace it with, are you willing to accept that he won’t be able to hold on?

It’s not a matter of destroying religion. I’d be happy to destroy that. It’s a matter of destroying somebody’s religion. If that is what they are living for and you take that away, be prepared to offer something else for them to live for or to accept that they have nothing to live for.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Nicely said.

 

[I Ratant]

Little to be gained by debating him and lots to be lost.

.
This.
He is fearful, don't take away the only crutch he has.

 

[Brombadil]

I guess thats it then. I probably wont change his mind, and even if I could change his mind its probably not a good idea.

What I find strange to me still is where the line gets drawn when it comes to imposing your belief on someone.

Lets say I had a 12 year old son who told me he could see fairys and unicorns.
I would ask him to show me and he would reply with "only I can see them".
He is so enthralled by these creatures he decides he is going to dedicate his life to the study of unicorns and fairys, write a thesis on them, and begin an organization that catalogues, monitors and researches these mythical creatures. On top of this, hes certain theres many other mythological creatures hes read in books that might exist too, and is sure his organization will discover dragons and chimeras too.

Sure you could look at this and say "let kids be kids" but assume for this sake of argument this has been going on for years and insists he can see them.
You have looked into it with your son and his only real means of believing in these creatures is his own delusional visions of them.

It seems like if you had a child who had claims of a delusional belief you would be far more inclined to step in and put a stop to it if you feel it ever goes too far, yet there seems to be an age threshold where you have to suddenly start respecting peoples inane beliefs and ideas, no matter how wrong they are. In the case of this child I would probably take him to a psychologist to get professional help, and I could possibly face allegations of child abuse for letting my sons compromised mental state evolve his delusional belief over a long period of time and go unreported, not to mention the negative impact he probably receives at school for being the geek who believes in dragons.

I would not suggest telling your son hes an idiot or hes crazy, but simply show him why there almost certainly is no existing mythological creatures today, what books they originated from and by what peoples, and the occams razor of either your not seeing them, or theres fire breathing dragons, chimeras, fairys and all kinds of things that 6 billion people, satellites, cameras and videos that no one ever picked up somehow.
I would then say his appetite for the discovery of amazing things is admirable and he should put his energy into the research of meaningful things and tell him there is real things in the universe that are unknown that are absolutely amazing people have yet to discover, and theres all kinds of room for him.

Seems strange there is a double standard of how we decide where to put our foot down on issues and get involved, and in other cases leave them be with whatever ideas they harbor goor or ill.


I would tell my theoretical son not to believe in these things because I care about his future well being in pursuit of meaningful things. He may be upset with me for stomping on his unicorn parade, but hell thank me later. Hes a kid.

I would not tell my dad not to believe in these things because I care about his well being but I might compromise our relationship or our respect level for each other and I should just leave him alone with his sky gods.

strange.

 

[slingblade]

Teaching your kids is your job.

Teaching adults who haven't expressed any desire to be taught, or interfering with another parent's right to teach their own kids, is not your job.

Look, I fully agree that critical thinking is a critical life-skill, and not enough people are familiar with it. But it isn't something we can impose on the unwilling!

That's why I suggested Demon Haunted World. As I say, there are a lot of other books out there, but I like Sagan's book for his Baloney Detection Kit. It teaches critical thinking, at least on an introductory level, and it doesn't specifically mention religion, so it can be seen as non-threatening, as it were. You can even find a copy of just the Baloney Detection Kit and give that to your dad, without the rest of the book.

http://users.tpg.com.au/users/tps-seti/baloney.html

One way to get your Dad to start using it, or start thinking more critically, might be to find some program on TV that badly needs debunking and in which he doesn't already believe, such as a Discovery channel program on Bigfoot (if he's not a 'footer, that is). And then use the BDK to debunk it with him. If you can somehow make this interesting to him, something he finds useful, he may begin using it more broadly, and his religious beliefs may come under his scrutiny. Or not. /shrug.

But really, people have the right to their own opinions, however right or wrong they may be, and to try to change that without their expressed interest is interference. It's imposition of your beliefs, or the lack thereof, on them.

Again, when I think how I'd feel if someone tried to convert me, I realize I can't do that to others. They think they're right, too, you know. Just as you do. And as has been pointed out, for most people religious belief causes no harm and comforts them.

Try introducing your Dad to critical thought through other means, other topics, and let it go from there. Or just try to love your dad, and refuse to discuss religion with him, and ignore his attitude. Or break relations with him if he won't accord you the respect you want.