The God Paradox

[Leumas]

That's either a very dishonest way of putting things; or else, if said sincerely, then a very stupid.

Sure, "a fanatical obsession" with anything at all can be "detached from reality" and dysfunctional. That's kind of the definition of "fanatical obsession". It can be dysfunctional to be "fanatically obsessed" with your health, with your love life, with your career, with world poverty, with cruelty to animals, with terrorism, even with the war in Ukraine. It's always dysfunctional, this "fanatically obsessed" thing, because it's kind of defined as being way more invested in whatever-it-is than is reasonable. If you happen to live in Ukraine, then being fully 100% invested in the war to the exclusion of all else wouldn't qualify as "fanatically obsessed", it would simply be the reasonable thing to do; likewise, if there's a real terrorist threat to you, or a very real and very signficant health risk to you, then being extremely invested in terrorism and your health won't qualify as being "fanatically obsessed". By speaking of "fanatical obsession", you're already defining your investment in something as disproportionate and dysfunctional. It's kind of tautological.

Which is why saying what you did is either evidence of very confused thinking, or else of outright disingenuousness.

Or both??

 

[Leumas]

"A fanatical obsession with Atheism?"

What the hell does that mean?

How could that be just as detached from reality as belief in walking on water, turning water into wine, humans living 500 to a thousand years, talking snakes and talking donkeys.

Theists have had thousands of years to prove there is a God and they have failed miserably. I have yet to see any halfway believable evidence of anyone's sky daddy. And yet these bastards ask for money and attempt to tell everybody how to live our lives. They have told us who we should enslave. That a witch deserves to die. That homosexuals should be stoned. That the skulls of the dhildren of other tribes be crushed upon the rocks.

I am an atheist. I believe in grace and forgiveness. I also believe in live and let live. Yet Christians are trying to enforce their beliefs on others.

Let me say this to them. GO TO HELL!

Look carefully on the bottom left of the image amongst the garbage...

​

 

[xjx388]

Thanks very much... the more you do this the more I am assured of the extent of Cognitive Dissonance being caused by the OP... I appreciate all the invectives and derision... please do carry on... thanks!!!

If you say so…

 

[Wudang]

Religions don't cause these things (at least, not the major sects anyway). People do. And even if they quote mine the bible to find justifications for their actions, it's odds on that they are following their own agenda and not the teachings of their religion.

We need a divider here between "religion" as a "theory" (for want of a better word) and "religion" as an "organisation". Because as commonly used it's the organisation sense that people use and so it's fair to say that a religion's teachings are whatever the priests, vicars, imams etc say they are.
A potentially less charged comparison is communism. All claim Marx's Das Kapital as their "bible", maybe as interpreted by the boddhisatvas of Lenin, Mao etc and all claim that "true communists" don't organise death camps for people who disagree with them yet there they are/were. The greater the authority one claims the greater the urge to exercise it because it's the cause of the greater good, right?
It's also handy not to have that division for the people advocating for that cause because it wasn't the cause that did that bad thing, oh no, that was a crazed loner, ok so maybe a group of thousands of crazed loners, but it wasn't the cause so why don't you just agree that I should make all your decisions for you because I am a real supporter of Good Cause and only bad people are against good causes.

 

[psionl0]

We need a divider here between "religion" as a "theory" (for want of a better word) and "religion" as an "organisation".

So far so good.

Because as commonly used it's the organisation sense that people use and so it's fair to say that a religion's teachings are whatever the priests, vicars, imams etc say they are.
A potentially less charged comparison is communism. All claim Marx's Das Kapital as their "bible", maybe as interpreted by the boddhisatvas of Lenin, Mao etc and all claim that "true communists" don't organise death camps for people who disagree with them yet there they are/were. The greater the authority one claims the greater the urge to exercise it because it's the cause of the greater good, right?
It's also handy not to have that division for the people advocating for that cause because it wasn't the cause that did that bad thing, oh no, that was a crazed loner, ok so maybe a group of thousands of crazed loners, but it wasn't the cause so why don't you just agree that I should make all your decisions for you because I am a real supporter of Good Cause and only bad people are against good causes.

Aaannndd..... You have lost me. I just can't parse it.

Are you trying to argue that religion is the cause of "poverty and suffering in Africa, South America and here in the United States"?

 

[acbytesla]

Religions don't cause these things (at least, not the major sects anyway). People do. And even if they quote mine the bible to find justifications for their actions, it's odds on that they are following their own agenda and not the teachings of their religion.

ROFLMAO! Yes in fact they do. War after War throughput the Middle East. Ever hear of the crusades? How about the Dark Ages? How about Torquemada and the Inquisition? The Salem Witch Trials.. How about the 6 million Jews in the Holocaust? How about how homosexuals are treated throughout the world? Do you know the history of the Gay Pride celebration?

Steven Weinberg is famous for saying the following.

"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion."

 

[Leumas]

So far so good.


Aaannndd..... You have lost me. I just can't parse it.

Are you trying to argue that religion is the cause of "poverty and suffering in Africa, South America and here in the United States"?

Let me make it simple for you to understand... gun manufacturers keep telling people that it is not guns that kill people ... people do...

This excuse by gun manufacturers to keep manufacturing and peddling guns that are used by people to kill people ... is cynically utilized as a ruse to deflect and hoodwink from the fact that they are makers of weapons of destruction and mayhem and when in the hands of even a callow child are a deadly force of misery.

ETA: in case you missed the point again... replace the word 'gun' with 'religion' in the above.

 

[psionl0]

ROFLMAO! Yes in fact they do. War after War throughput the Middle East. Ever hear of the crusades? How about the Dark Ages? How about Torquemada and the Inquisition? The Salem Witch Trials.. How about the 6 million Jews in the Holocaust? How about how homosexuals are treated throughout the world? Do you know the history of the Gay Pride celebration?

Those are nearly all examples of people in authority clinging on to power and using religion as a tool to justify it. That is, other than cases like the holocaust which was based on a pure atheistic hatred.

 

[Wudang]

cases like the holocaust which was based on a pure atheistic hatred.

Complete and utter drivel. The nazis promoted Positive Christianity emphasizing racial purity. Hitler tried to prove Jesus was both an Aryan and an anti-semite.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#Religion

 

[acbytesla]

Those are nearly all examples of people in authority clinging on to power and using religion as a tool to justify it. That is, other than cases like the holocaust which was based on a pure atheistic hatred.

You're absolutely delusional. Power is derived by the consent of the governed. Hitler could do nothing without the support of the people. Hitler was a Christian. He stated this many times.

The belt buckle of every German soldier had the words Gott Mit Uns (God is with us) engraved on it. Germany, a very Christian country at that time. It was a heavily Catholic where the Catholic doctrine that the Jews were guilty of deicide was preached.

The idea that the Holocaust was atheistic is ignorance or a deliberate attempt to rewrite history. Which is it?

 

[Myriad]

Steven Weinberg is famous for saying the following.

"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion."

Food for thought. But is it actually true?

Going down the list of the top mass murderers in history, for instance, we find some of them used religion as a cause or justification, some used explicitly non-religious causes or justifications, and some were ambiguous (e.g. how "Christian" the Third Reich was has been under debate ever since it existed).

Is the claim, then, that mass murderers and their complicit minions/subjects who had religious motivations were good people led astray by religion, while mass murderers and their complicit minions/subjects who lacked religious motivations were simply bad people? Is such a claim falsifiable? Can you tell whether Torquemada would have been a good person if not influenced by the Catholicism of his day, or just isn't included in the "good people doing bad things due to religion" roster?

 

[LarryS]

People think, speak and behave according to their nature, and often, provide explanations and justifications for their actions. Put another way, beliefs tend to be coorelated not causal.
The Bible is a great source for these explanations\justifications because every possible human action is endorsed in scripture, from the most beloved to most horrific.

 

[acbytesla]

Food for thought. But is it actually true?

Going down the list of the top mass murderers in history, for instance, we find some of them used religion as a cause or justification, some used explicitly non-religious causes or justifications, and some were ambiguous (e.g. how "Christian" the Third Reich was has been under debate ever since it existed).

It has always been a dishonest debate. Of course Christians today don't want to own that. It clearly wasn't only Christian. But its complicity is clear.

Is the claim, then, that mass murderers and their complicit minions/subjects who had religious motivations were good people led astray by religion, while mass murderers and their complicit minions/subjects who lacked religious motivations were simply bad people? Is such a claim falsifiable? Can you tell whether Torquemada would have been a good person if not influenced by the Catholicism of his day, or just isn't included in the "good people doing bad things due to religion" roster?

It's a saying. Virtually impossible to prove. But I'm convinced. It's the Milgram or the Stanford Prison experiment played out on a bigger stage. If you thought it was the right thing to do would you inflict pain, maybe even kill others? The Milgram experiment proved that people would.

I had this discussion with a very devout Catholic friend of mine. If you believed that God wanted you to kill someone wouldn't you have to do it? My friend who is one of the kindest caring people I have ever met said he wouldn't hesitate.

 

[Leumas]

Those are nearly all examples of people in authority clinging on to power and using religion as a tool to justify it. That is, other than cases like the holocaust which was based on a pure atheistic hatred.

The Holocaust was based upon centuries of Christians believing these verses:

• Matthew 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
• John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

And upon the writings of Martin Luther's book "On the Jews and Their Lies" in which he outlines what to do. Following the exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Protestants to carry out seven remedial actions, namely:

1. to burn down Jewish synagogues and schools and warn people against them
2. to refuse to let Jews own houses among Christians
3. to take away Jewish religious writings
4. to forbid rabbis from preaching
5. to offer no protection to Jews on highways
6. for usury to be prohibited and for all Jews' silver and gold to be removed, put aside for safekeeping, and given back to Jews who truly convert
7. to give young, strong Jews flail, axe, spade, and spindle, and let them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow

 

[Leumas]

Complete and utter drivel. The nazis promoted Positive Christianity emphasizing racial purity. Hitler tried to prove Jesus was both an Aryan and an anti-semite.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#Religion

EXACTLY!!!!

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Those are nearly all examples of people in authority clinging on to power and using religion as a tool to justify it. That is, other than cases like the holocaust which was based on a pure atheistic hatred.

You fell for that old canard.

 

[smartcooky]

Those are nearly all examples of people in authority clinging on to power and using religion as a tool to justify it. That is, other than cases like the holocaust which was based on a pure atheistic hatred.

Wrong! Completely and utterly wrong!

Can you work out why for yourself, or would you like me to explain to you about Aryanism, the German Evangelical Church, the Germanic Pantheon and the true function and objectives of the Ahnenerbe?

Complete and utter drivel. The nazis promoted Positive Christianity emphasizing racial purity. Hitler tried to prove Jesus was both an Aryan and an anti-semite.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#Religion

You're absolutely delusional. Power is derived by the consent of the governed. Hitler could do nothing without the support of the people. Hitler was a Christian. He stated this many times.

The belt buckle of every German soldier had the words Gott Mit Uns (God is with us) engraved on it. Germany, a very Christian country at that time. It was a heavily Catholic where the Catholic doctrine that the Jews were guilty of deicide was preached.

The idea that the Holocaust was atheistic is ignorance or a deliberate attempt to rewrite history. Which is it?

You fell for that old canard.

Indeed!!!

It is disturbing to me that psionl0 is starting to parrot talking points that are prominent in the speech of Holocaust deniers like Richard Williamson, David Irving and Jean-Marie Le Pen. He has the benefit of the doubt in this regard... for now.

 

[Leumas]

You're absolutely delusional. Power is derived by the consent of the governed. Hitler could do nothing without the support of the people. Hitler was a Christian. He stated this many times.

The belt buckle of every German soldier had the words Gott Mit Uns (God is with us) engraved on it. Germany, a very Christian country at that time. It was a heavily Catholic where the Catholic doctrine that the Jews were guilty of deicide was preached.

The idea that the Holocaust was atheistic is ignorance or a deliberate attempt to rewrite history. Which is it?

Exactly!!

 

[Leumas]

You fell for that old canard.

not fell for it... it is a canard fabricated by apologists for the ubiquitous usage by the other apologists.

 

[Leumas]

Food for thought. But is it actually true?

Going down the list of the top mass murderers in history, for instance, we find some of them used religion as a cause or justification, some used explicitly non-religious causes or justifications, and some were ambiguous (e.g. how "Christian" the Third Reich was has been under debate ever since it existed).

Is the claim, then, that mass murderers and their complicit minions/subjects who had religious motivations were good people led astray by religion, while mass murderers and their complicit minions/subjects who lacked religious motivations were simply bad people? Is such a claim falsifiable? Can you tell whether Torquemada would have been a good person if not influenced by the Catholicism of his day, or just isn't included in the "good people doing bad things due to religion" roster?

We can tell that if it were not for the Catholicism of his day giving him all the power and apparatuses and funding and soldiers and executioners and torturers who were all themselves christians... he would not have been able to practice or effect his evil.

And they were all staunch believers of the verses below to tell themselves that all they have to do in order to wipe out their evil doing (assuming they knew it was evil)... is believe in Jesus and be baptized and repent and confess their sins..

• Luke 15:4-7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
• Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved....
• John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life....
• John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned....
• Luke 14:26 If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.
• Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
• Matthew 10:34-35 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

And to justify that their victims are evil who deserve extirpation they also used more verses from their Jesus:

• Matthew 8:11-12 I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
• John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
• Luke 19:27And these enemies of mine who were unwilling for me to rule over them, bring them here and slay them in front of me.
• John 3:36 ... he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
• John 3:18 ... he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
• Mark 16:16 ….he that believeth not shall be damned.
• Matthew 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
• John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him...
• John 8:40 But now you are trying to kill Me]/B], a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God.