The God Paradox

[Leumas]

As I said, nothing new here. Hashed, rehashed -covered and smothered as they might say at Waffle House.

No, that doesn’t mean we should drop the whole thing. I just wish someone, for once, came up with something new.

I am also still waiting for an apologist to come up with something new... your responses to my OP have been disappointing on that front... but amusing in that they expose the extent of emotions it has evoked... thanks for that!!!

And your argument doesn’t actually disprove an imperfect god who created and just left us to our own devices. Maybe they exist in another universe or whatever trying to improve on their creations? Doesn’t really matter in such a case. I just don’t see a paradox in your argument that disproves such imperfect, disinterested creator entities.

Maybe if you were able to think about it and the science it is based upon more in depth you might get it... I won't be holding my breath though!!!

Further, your argument may be enough for people who are already atheists or people questioning their beliefs but they aren’t enough to sway committed believers. It was very similar arguments, that I heard when I was in my questioning phase, that ultimately turned me away from my already lax Catholic upbringing and ultimately belief in any god as conceived in established religions. So I have no objection to raising such things here again, I just think it’s a matter of preaching a tired old sermon to an already convinced and bored choir.

Well... judging from the responses so far... the choir has been quite stirred... but they are singing the trite old apologetics hymnals.... nevertheless... they are entertaining still.

 

[acbytesla]

As I said, nothing new here. Hashed, rehashed -covered and smothered as they might say at Waffle House.

No, that doesn’t mean we should drop the whole thing. I just wish someone, for once, came up with something new.

And your argument doesn’t actually disprove an imperfect god who created and just left us to our own devices. Maybe they exist in another universe or whatever trying to improve on their creations? Doesn’t really matter in such a case. I just don’t see a paradox in your argument that disproves such imperfect, disinterested creator entities. Further, your argument may be enough for people who are already atheists or people questioning their beliefs but they aren’t enough to sway committed believers. It was very similar arguments, that I heard when I was in my questioning phase, that ultimately turned me away from my already lax Catholic upbringing and ultimately belief in any god as conceived in established religions. So I have no objection to raising such things here again, I just think it’s a matter of preaching a tired old sermon to an already convinced and bored choir.

You can't disprove Leprechauns, fairies, Big Foot, the Loch Ness Monster, Voldemort or God. To suggest the inability to disprove any of these things is a reason to believe is infantile and beneath any intellectual of merit.

Sure it's possible that some kind of Deist god created the universe. Ridiculously unlikely, but possible in the way that Giselle Bunchen will leave Tom Brady tomorrow for me. Neither are worth entertaining as actually possible.

 

[xjx388]

Where have I suggested any such thing? I didn’t say that since we can’t disprove it, that we should believe in it.

All I’m saying is that the OP’s argument is shallow, unoriginal and doesn’t disprove any conceivable god. I certainly don’t believe in any god.

 

[xjx388]

I am also still waiting for an apologist to come up with something new... your responses to my OP have been disappointing on that front...

What exactly do you think I’m an apologist for? You can’t support that. This is naught but a bit of well-poisoning dismissal (common on this forum lately).

but amusing in that they expose the extent of emotions it has evoked... thanks for that!!!

And this is projection.

Maybe if you were able to think about it and the science it is based up more in depth you might get it... I won't be holding my breath though!!

Well... judging from the responses so far... the choir has been quite stirred... but they are singing the trite old apologetics hymnals.... nevertheless... they are entertaining still.

I didn’t really think it would be possible for someone to misread something so badly. I guess I was wrong. It seems you have this preconceived notion that anyone who disagrees with you must be an apologist who simply cannot comprehend your brilliance. You’d be wrong there.

 

[Leumas]

All I’m saying is that the OP’s argument is shallow, unoriginal and doesn’t disprove any conceivable god. I certainly don’t believe in any god.

Ok... then let's see your deep original arguments ... other than positing unfalsifiable claptrap that is... please brighten this choir with a new hymnal instead of the trite old ones you are singing so far.

 

[smartcooky]

I am also still waiting for an apologist to come up with something new...

I think you will be waiting a long time.... those who indulge in religious apologetics never have anything new. They sometimes spout stuff they claim is new, but upon examination, it soon becomes clear that it is just a poorly executed rehashing and rejigging of the same tired old bollocks, full of question begging and logical fallacies such as arguments from ignorance and incredulity.

But since (and I'm guessing here) you probably watch a number of L. Aron Nelson's* YouTube videos, you probably already knew that!


* AKA Aron Ra

 

[Leumas]

I do too. Probably my favorite writer. Him or Dickens. It sounds so much like Twain. He was also good friends with Tesla. There's an interesting story about Twain visiting Tesla's lab. He sat in a chair that Tesla made that vibrates and electrically stimulates the person in it. Let's just say it triggered a bowel movement.

HAHAHA... never heard that one before... hilarious.

... He sat in a chair that Tesla made that vibrates and electrically stimulates the person in it. Let's just say it triggered a bowel movement.

Pretty much what thinking about religions does to me ... especially the ones based upon the worship of the deadbeat sky friend of the peripatetic Sumerian in Canaan who went around saying his half-sister-wife is his sister and collecting lots of riches from anyone who was besotted with her "beauty".

​

 

[xjx388]

Ok... then let's see your deep original arguments ... other than positing unfalsifiable claptrap that is... please brighten this choir with a new hymnal instead of the trite old ones you are singing so far.

If I could do that, I’d have a very different career than I have now, that’s for sure. I’m just another regular dude who decided for himself, based on science and other people’s long established arguments, that the existence of any kind of God is not plausible.

On this forum, we are give believers a lot of crap for coming on here and trotting out the same old covered and smothered arguments and presenting them as something new and convincing. I don’t see why atheists should be exempt.

From my viewpoint science has already answered most of the mysteries and the atheists of yore have already made the logical arguments. With all that, there isn’t really anything new under the sun. The only value would be to introduce budding atheists to these arguments and let them figure it out instead of berating them into submission.

 

[Leumas]

I think you will be waiting a long time.... those who indulge in religious apologetics never have anything new. They sometimes spout stuff they claim is new, but upon examination, it soon becomes clear that it is just a poorly executed rehashing and rejigging of the same tired old bollocks, full of question begging and logical fallacies such as arguments from ignorance and incredulity.

EXACTLY!!! ... And do not forget... ad hominem, red herring, strawmanning, quackery-psychanalysis, slander, claiming-being-persecuted, self-projection, deflecting, context!!!, translation!!!, paleo-cultural-milieu!!!.

And the apologetic chicanery I recently discovered...

bible-is-filled-with-contradictions and bible-is-only-Moses'-words​

although these seem to be the purview of apologists trying to beguile and be everything to every one ala Paul.

​

But since (and I'm guessing here) you probably watch a number of L. Aron Nelson's* YouTube videos, you probably already knew that!
* AKA Aron Ra

Yes indeed... he is an excellent mind and his videos are an education.

 

[Leumas]

If I could do that, I’d have a very different career than I have now, that’s for sure. I’m just another regular dude who decided for himself, based on science and other people’s long established arguments, that the existence of any kind of God is not plausible.

<snip>

Yes it is a lot easier to deride lambast and topple the productions of those who produce than to produce anything.... do carry on!!!

 

[acbytesla]

I highly recommend this video about this subject.

Why religion does more harm than good.


Better to watch it on YouTube.
https://youtu.be/ALTWFYsfLQ8

 

[xjx388]

Yes it is a lot easier to deride lambast and topple the productions of those who produce than to produce anything.... do carry on!!!

Oh is that what you are doing? Producing something? Seems to me you are just repeating arguments dressed up in new clothes.

Oh and poop. Apparently you are producing a lot of poop in the process. [emoji6]

 

[Warp12]

I think there is an argument to be made that a fanatical obsession with atheism can be just as detached from reality as such an obsession with religion. It is pretty compelling, I'd say.

 

[Leumas]

I think there is an argument to be made that a fanatical obsession with atheism can be just as detached from reality as such an obsession with religion. It is pretty compelling, I'd say.

This is a trite hackneyed and mephitic apologetic that casuists have been using for a long time... trying to make science into faith and atheism into religion... and failing abysmally except perhaps with the most benighted of theists...

...shallow.. aren’t really new arguments

...nothing new here. Hashed, rehashed -covered and smothered as they might say at Waffle House... I just wish someone, for once, came up with something new... Further, your argument may be enough for people who are already atheists or people questioning their beliefs ...

... is shallow, unoriginal...

 

[Leumas]

Oh is that what you are doing? Producing something? Seems to me you are just repeating arguments dressed up in new clothes.

Oh and poop. Apparently you are producing a lot of poop in the process.

Thanks very much... the more you do this the more I am assured of the extent of Cognitive Dissonance being caused by the OP... I appreciate all the invectives and derision... please do carry on... thanks!!!

 

[Warp12]

This is a trite hackneyed and mephitic apologetic that casuists have been using for a long time... trying to make science into faith and atheism into religion... and failing abysmally except perhaps with the most benighted of theists...

And this is a...yawn.

 

[acbytesla]

I think there is an argument to be made that a fanatical obsession with atheism can be just as detached from reality as such an obsession with religion. It is pretty compelling, I'd say.

"A fanatical obsession with Atheism?"

What the hell does that mean?

How could that be just as detached from reality as belief in walking on water, turning water into wine, humans living 500 to a thousand years, talking snakes and talking donkeys.

Theists have had thousands of years to prove there is a God and they have failed miserably. I have yet to see any halfway believable evidence of anyone's sky daddy. And yet these bastards ask for money and attempt to tell everybody how to live our lives. They have told us who we should enslave. That a witch deserves to die. That homosexuals should be stoned. That the skulls of the dhildren of other tribes be crushed upon the rocks.

I am an atheist. I believe in grace and forgiveness. I also believe in live and let live. Yet Christians are trying to enforce their beliefs on others.

Let me say this to them. GO TO HELL!

 

[psionl0]

Beliefs inform our actions. And religions are anti-logic, anti-science and anti-humanity. They have caused poverty and suffering in Africa, South America and here in the United States.

Religions don't cause these things (at least, not the major sects anyway). People do. And even if they quote mine the bible to find justifications for their actions, it's odds on that they are following their own agenda and not the teachings of their religion.

 

[Chanakya]

I think there is an argument to be made that a fanatical obsession with atheism can be just as detached from reality as such an obsession with religion. It is pretty compelling, I'd say.

That's either a very dishonest way of putting things; or else, if said sincerely, then a very stupid.

Sure, "a fanatical obsession" with anything at all can be "detached from reality" and dysfunctional. That's kind of the definition of "fanatical obsession". It can be dysfunctional to be "fanatically obsessed" with your health, with your love life, with your career, with world poverty, with cruelty to animals, with terrorism, even with the war in Ukraine. It's always dysfunctional, this "fanatically obsessed" thing, because it's kind of defined as being way more invested in whatever-it-is than is reasonable. If you happen to live in Ukraine, then being fully 100% invested in the war to the exclusion of all else wouldn't qualify as "fanatically obsessed", it would simply be the reasonable thing to do; likewise, if there's a real terrorist threat to you, or a very real and very signficant health risk to you, then being extremely invested in terrorism and your health won't qualify as being "fanatically obsessed". By speaking of "fanatical obsession", you're already defining your investment in something as disproportionate and dysfunctional. It's kind of tautological.

Which is why saying what you did is either evidence of very confused thinking, or else of outright disingenuousness.

 

[Leumas]

Religions don't cause these things (at least, not the major sects anyway). People do. And even if they quote mine the bible to find justifications for their actions, it's odds on that they are following their own agenda and not the teachings of their religion.

Duh!!!... Guess what causes religions??? Nope... it is not your deadbeat sky daddy... it is people.

Religions don't cause these things (at least, not the major sects anyway). People do. And even if they quote mine the bible to find justifications for their actions, it's odds on that they are following their own agenda and not the teachings of their religion.

This is the most asinine assertion ever... guess what... the stuff in the bible is part and parcel of the religion... if your deadbeat sky daddy wrote the bible as your religion teaches... then he ought to not have included those "justifications" in the bible... and more often than not... those "justifications" are in fact commandments/advice/admonishment by your deadbeat sky daddy or by his Zombified ill begotten son.