The General Native American Discussion Thread

[Paulhoff]

To get an address one needs a job, to get a job one needs address, to get an ad........

Paul

 

[L.Y.S.]

They had a 500-1 advantage. Sounds like they must have been pretty incompetent to lose with odds like that.

Wow, to be flooded by rifles and millions of white settlers after waves of disease? Talk about racist. Your heart is starting to show.

 

[WildCat]

they are 'first nations' in canada.
obviously america does not recognize them as such.
there were 500 nations on american soil beore they were destroyed by the 'land of the free'.
canada also has a poor history with first nations, but we are getting better.
however, there are a disturbing number of third world conditions in aboriginal communities here too.
surely you are not that insensitive to their problems in your own country.

Weren't you supposed to provide evidence that Indians don't have the samne rights any other American does?

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

So far I've heard no good reasons for Native Americans not having direct "national" representation in congress other than "it's too hard", "it won't happen" or basic denial.

Probably for the same reason the Irish-Americans or the Bosnian-Americans don't get direct "national" representation in congress. Why should American Indians get preferential treatment over other Americans?

 

[bikerdruid]

Weren't you supposed to provide evidence that Indians don't have the samne rights any other American does?

they were nations first.
they should have more rights, as nations, then average americans.
their leaders should have the ear of your leaders.

 

[L.Y.S.]

Probably for the same reason the Irish-Americans or the Bosnian-Americans don't get direct "national" representation in congress. Why should American Indians get preferential treatment over other Americans?

Native Americans are nations in this part of the world. Bosnians and Irish are not. Irrelevant argument.

 

[Neally]

I'm not sure this is an answerable question. If moving off of reservations into places of existing extensive infrastructure, resources, and civic activity is unreasonable because it constitutes "giving up their culture, heritage, and way of life", then how does bringing all the infrastructure, resources, and civic activity into reservations "preserve" that culture?

L.Y.S. wants his cake and eat it too. Wants a separate sovereign nation yet wants to be supported by the US government.

One culture gets taken over by another invading culture. It has happened throughout the world from the beginning of human existence. If the invaded culture wants to be separatist and not integrate into the dominant culture, don't expect the dominant culture to prop them up. Either beat'em or join'em. The US government has been pretty accommodating compared to other governments as far as attempting to allow the defeated culture to have their own space and maintain their own way of life while at the same time allowing them to fully participate in the democratic process.

 

[WildCat]

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

they were nations first.
they should have more rights, as nations, then average americans.
their leaders should have the ear of your leaders.

Then they should have won the war.

 

[L.Y.S.]

L.Y.S. wants his cake and eat it too. Wants a separate sovereign nation yet wants to be supported by the US government.

One culture gets taken over by another invading culture. It has happened throughout the world from the beginning of human existence. If the invaded culture wants to be separatist and not integrate into the dominant culture, don't expect the dominant culture to prop them up. Either beat'em or join'em. The US government has been pretty accommodating compared to other governments as far as attempting to allow the defeated culture to have their own space and maintain their own way of life while at the same time allowing them to fully participate in the democratic process.

Excuse, we know better 500 years in the future. It's time to fix this and prevent this from ever happening in this nation again.

Then they should have won the war.

So basically you don't want to do anything about it. It's too much.

 

[L.Y.S.]

Thread derail and pointless. This is what happens with being a half breed always. I'm half Igbo and American black and I get discriminated against all the time. It has nothing to do with the thread.

 

[bikerdruid]

Then they should have won the war.

perhaps your government should have honoured your treaties.

 

[Giz]

they were nations first.
they should have more rights, as nations, then average americans.
their leaders should have the ear of your leaders.

So decendants of original inhabitants should have superior representative status in perpetuity over children of later immigrants? Do you just espouse such illiberal racist policies for the Americas or do you also believe that this should apply to France, Germany etc?

 

[WildCat]

Oh the wind blows cold
On the trail of the buffalo
Oh the wind blows cold
In the land of the Navajo
In the land of the Navajo

A hundred miles from nowhere out on the desert sand
One Eyed Jack the trader held some turquoise in his hand
By his side sat Running Elk his longtime Indian friend
He vowed that he would stay by Jack until the bitter end

Jack had gambled everything he owned to leave this wandering life
He might have had a happy home and a tender loving wife
But his hunger was for trading trapper's furs for turquoise stones
Anything that the Indians had Jack wanted for his own

Said Jack to Running Elk I'll gamble all my precious stones
Before I leave my body here among these bleaching bones
Though now my time is drawing near and I'm filled with dark regrets
My spirit longs to journey as the sun begins to set

We raped and killed we stole your land
We rule with guns and knives gave whiskey to your warriors
While we stole away your wives
Said Running Elk what's done is done you white men rule this land
So lay the cards face up and play your last broken hearted hand

Refrain

When your dealing cards with death the joker's wild the ace is high
Jack bet the Mississippi River running Elk raised him the sky
Jack saw him with the sun and room and upped him with the stars
Running Elk bet the Rocky Mountains Jupiter and Mars

The sun was sinking in the west when Jack draw the ace of spades
Running Elk just rolled his eyes and smiled and passed away
Jack picked up his turquoise stones and cast them to the sky
He stared into the setting sun and made the mournful cry

Refrain

 

[L.Y.S.]

So decendants of original inhabitants should have superior representative status in perpetuity over children of later immigrants? Do you just espouse such illiberal racist policies for the Americas or do you also believe that this should apply to France, Germany etc?

France, Germany, and other nations didn't make treaties that they broke. In fact the British honored their treaties with the Natives. The Americans did not.

 

[L.Y.S.]

Oh the wind blows cold
On the trail of the buffalo
Oh the wind blows cold
In the land of the Navajo
In the land of the Navajo

A hundred miles from nowhere out on the desert sand
One Eyed Jack the trader hold some turquoise in his hand
By his side sat Running Elk his longtime Indian friend
He vowed that he would stay by Jack until the bitter end

Jack had gambled everything he owned to leave this wondering life
He might have had a happy home and a tender loving wife
But his hunger was for trading trapper's furs for turquoise stones
Anything that the Indians had Jack wanted for his own

Said Jack to Running Elk I'll gamble all my precious stones
Before I leave my body here among these bleaching bones
Though now my time is drawing near and I'm filled with dark regrets
My spirit longs to journey as the sun begins to set

We raped and killed we stole your land
We rule with guns and knives add whiskey to your waters
While we stole away your wives
Said Running Elk what's done is done you white men rule this land
So lay the cards face up and play your last broken hearted hand

Refrain

When your dealing cards with death the joker's wild the ace is high
Jack bet the Mississippi River running Elk raised him the sky
Jack saw him with the sun and room and upped him with the stars
Running Elk bet the Rocky Mountains Jupiter and Mars

The sun was sinking in the west when Jack draw the ace of spades
Running Elk just rolled his eyes and smiled and passed away
Jack picked up his turquoise stones and cast them to the sky
He stared into the setting sun and made the mournful cry

Refrain

 

[Bikewer]

I had a book of contemporary American poetry a few years back, and a number of native American poets were included. My impression of all of them was that they were deeply angry...
In my previous post, I said as "some" have clearly done. I know people who fall into this category. One of them teaches here at the university I work at. This in no way implies "most" or even "a lot". The word "some" seems entirely accurate to me.
I don't live anywhere near a reservation, and to my knowledge there is no large NA population here. I'm sure conditions on the reservations are as described.

The complaint iterated as "And so all should" is unjustified and amounts to putting words in my mouth I did not utter.
I made no such judgement. I merely mentioned the fact that a portion of native Americans manage to live in American society. Period.
I thought I was being rather sympathetic to those that find this difficult or impossible.

 

[L.Y.S.]

--

 

[BenBurch]

My opinion is that the reservation system damages the people who are in it pretty seriously, and that there is no reason to maintain a system of apartheid for the neolithic tribes we defeated to form the present USA.

Whatever harm was done to them long ago, and that harm was considerable, and it is the shame of our ancestors that it went down the way it did, was harm to people whose grandchildren have now passed into history. Whatever debt was still owed cannot now be repaid.

End the recognition of any form of Native American sovereignty. If we want to do something to help them along after this, grant all living on reservations now a lifetime $10,000 annual tax credit.

 

[WildCat]

No, it's an awesome song and answers all your questions if you look at it right.

And it's an all-hippie band!