The General Native American Discussion Thread

[L.Y.S.]

Exactly. American Indians, like all Americans, are free to live wherever they want, and sign up for welfare, foodstamps, rental assistance, and all sorts of other programs, just like every other American.

I'm not sure what the issue is.

There is false intent in this message to under play the seriousness of the issue. Not to mention racist. This is clearly a worse issue than you understand. And while I was in the Israel/Palestine thread people told me to get educated. If I told you the same in this thread you would snerk and move forward. Shows me just how "valuable “human rights is to the United Snakes of America.

Secondly, if they qualify for these programs so much, why not just do it on the reservation? What harm is done by doing it this way?

I think LYS wants the Great White Father to step in and show those Indians the proper way to run a reservation.

Not true, Native Americans request funding for infrastructure projects every year and get small trinkets of money. They deserve more of a voice in this country. What is there not to understand about this?

 

[WildCat]

This is just a lie and false to be quite honest.

How so?

 

[L.Y.S.]

How so?

"report to Congress"? What do you mean by that? Indian reservations are inside Congressional districts.

No they need their own districts, representatives, and senators. Just like you don't expect Europeans to carter to the Jewish populations they eradicated, so to should you not expect the American government to carter to the Native American population. They have a poor tract record with this.

If you want Indian reservations to get their own Congressional delegation you would need to amend the US Constitution, and that just isn't going to happen.

So basically doing the right this is too hard for you? Btw, it was just “never” going to happen for black slaves yet it did. I guess there is a first time for everything .

So I don't really see where you're going with this.

Yeah I know, a person in the dominant culture who has never suffered discrimination, and not had their culture suppressed wouldn't. Only the truly compassionate and non-hypocritical could understand the argument.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

There is false intent in this message to under play the seriousness of the issue. Not to mention racist.

So suggesting that American Indians have the same freedoms as all other Americans is racist? Seriously?

This is clearly a worse issue than you understand.

That's possible, because so far, you haven't explained what the issue is, other than "White man being mean to poor Indians".

And while I was in the Israel/Palestine thread people told me to get educated. If I told you the same in this thread you would snerk and move forward. Shows me just how "valuable “human rights is to the United Snakes of America.

I have no idea what this means.

Secondly, if they qualify for these programs so much, why not just do it on the reservation? What harm is done by doing it this way?

Your claim is that an American Indian can't sign up for welfare or food stamps unless they move off the reservation? Sorry, but....evidence?

Not true, Native Americans request funding for infrastructure projects every year and get small trinkets of money. They deserve more of a voice in this country. What is there not to understand about this?

I deserve more of a voice in this country. So?

 

[L.Y.S.]

So suggesting that American Indians have the same freedoms as all other Americans is racist? Seriously?

Not but alluding to the fact that Native Americans can just move off their reservations and forget their culture is. "If they aren't happy, just move?" How typical. That's like telling New Yorkers, "I know New York is your home and all, but if you want to qualify for food stamps and get clean drinking water your gonna need to move D.C." The argument doesn't make sense. Do not all regions of America deserve clean water, sewage, and running water?

That's possible, because so far, you haven't explained what the issue is, other than "White man being mean to poor Indians".

You mean the fact that they have been isolated, nearly eradicated, with no economic opportunity what so ever. What more needs to be explained?
What disease didn’t kill off American cavalry regiments, exploitation (by break several legal treaties I might add), and forced assimilation did (i.e. if you want a better life then just leave the reservation).

I have no idea what this means.

That comment was directed towards wild cat. He'll understand what it means.

Your claim is that an American Indian can't sign up for welfare or food stamps unless they move off the reservation? Sorry, but....evidence?

Not my claim. I said “why can't the programs come to natives instead of natives having to leave their reservations to get the programs?” It's in the quote you above this sentence. I suggest you read it.

I deserve more of a voice in this country. So?

Are you a collective group with lack of representation in America? White people have fairly well protected interest in America the last time I check. It would only make sense .

 

[Checkmite]

I'm not sure this is an answerable question. If moving off of reservations into places of existing extensive infrastructure, resources, and civic activity is unreasonable because it constitutes "giving up their culture, heritage, and way of life", then how does bringing all the infrastructure, resources, and civic activity into reservations "preserve" that culture?

Sad fact: development brings gentrification. It's unavoidable. If reservations want development, then they'll have to accept the Wal Marts and Burger Kings and Fifth Third Banks and all that "regular American" stuff because that's what comes with development. Those are the ones who have the money to invest, and they're going to want something in return for their investment.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Not but alluding to the fact that Native Americans can just move off their reservations and forget their culture is. "If they aren't happy, just move?" How typical.

I moved about 5 years ago. Does that mean I forgot my culture?

That's like telling New Yorkers, "I know New York is your home and all, but if you want to qualify for food stamps and get clean drinking water your gonna need to move D.C." The argument doesn't make sense. Do not all regions of America deserve clean water, sewage, and running water?

Again, what on earth are you talking about? Indians can't get government programs where they currently live? They have to move to NY or DC and forget their culture? Is there a checkbox on the forum "I promise to forget my culture in order to receive welfare benefits (Yes/No)"?

You mean the fact that they have been isolated, nearly eradicated, with no economic opportunity what so ever. What more needs to be explained?
What disease didn’t kill off American cavalry regiments, exploitation (by break several legal treaties I might add), and forced assimilation did (i.e. if you want a better life then just leave the reservation).

Huh????

Not my claim. I said “why can't the programs come to natives instead of natives having to leave their reservations to get the programs?” It's in the quote you above this sentence. I suggest you read it.

What programs require Indians to leave the reservation in order to take part? Be very specific.

Are you a collective group with lack of representation in America?

Wait. Indians don't have Congressional representation? I'm about 100% sure you are incorrect.

White people have fairly well protected interest in America the last time I check. It would only make sense .

That seems like a racist statement.

 

[L.Y.S.]

Sad fact: development brings gentrification. It's unavoidable. If reservations want development, then they'll have to accept the Wal Marts and Burger Kings and Fifth Third Banks and all that "regular American" stuff because that's what comes with development. Those are the ones who have the money to invest, and they're going to want something in return for their investment.

Most reservations don't need shops. They already have resource capital on their lands. This sounds to me like a lack of will power and a want to rid of their culture.

 

[L.Y.S.]

I moved about 5 years ago. Does that mean I forgot my culture?

That's because your white bro, your culture is everywhere. Your people have touched every spot on Earth and drastically changed it. You most likely can move to China and see signs of American culture. It's pretty easy not to lose your culture when your culture is the dominant one of Earth. This statement is irrelevant.

I am not saying that is bad. I like Iphones, I like the internet, I love modern medicine, all these things are great! It's better than the medicine man back at the village and having to walk 5 villages over to talk to a friend. But I also like my culture, my language, and my heritage. Unlike Native Americans I can go to my village in Nigeria, go to a library and read my history. I can go there and have clean water to drink, healthy food to eat, and a safe place to stay with my grandmother. Why can't there be a balance between progress and heritage? This just seems like an escapist argument to me.

Again, what on earth are you talking about? Indians can't get government programs where they currently live? They have to move to NY or DC and forget their culture? Is there a checkbox on the forum "I promise to forget my culture in order to receive welfare benefits (Yes/No)"?

Why should they have to leave the reservation to get clean water and healthy food? There is no logical argument against it.

What programs require Indians to leave the reservation in order to take part? Be very specific.

Clean water and sewage, ever heard of that program?

Wait. Indians don't have Congressional representation? I'm about 100% sure you are incorrect.

So their reservations have representation which gives them a voice in congress? Nah I doubt. You can show me up if you'd like.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

That's because your white bro, your culture is everywhere. Your people have touched every spot on Earth and drastically changed it. You most likely can move to China and see signs of American culture. It's pretty easy not to lose your culture when your culture is the dominant one of Earth. This statement is irrelevant.

Assumption based on facts not in evidence.

I am not saying that is bad. I like Iphones, I like the internet, I love modern medicine, all these things are great! It's better than the medicine man back at the village and having to walk 5 villages over to talk to a friend. But I also like my culture, my language, and my heritage. Unlike Native Americans I can go to my village in Nigeria, go to a library and read my history. I can go there and have clean water to drink, healthy food to eat, and a safe place to stay with my grandmother. Why can't there be a balance between progress and heritage? This just seems like an escapist argument to me.

So American Indians have no access to libraries? Are you sure about that?

Why should they have to leave the reservation to get clean water and healthy food? There is no logical argument against it.

You've never been on an Indian reservation, have you?

Clean water and sewage, ever heard of that program?

Just to be clear here, your claim is that no American Indian anywhere has access to clean water or sewers? Again, are you sure about that?

So their reservations have representation which gives them a voice in congress? Nah I doubt. You can show me up if you'd like.

You made the claim, you provide the evidence.

 

[WildCat]

Most reservations don't need shops. They already have resource capital on their lands. This sounds to me like a lack of will power and a want to rid of their culture.

Then what are you demanding? What's stopping them from developing their resources?

 

[Checkmite]

Most reservations don't need shops. They already have resource capital on their lands.

You're not listening.

Those things are what comes with development. Cities get loans from banks to build water works and power plants and treatment plants and new roads. They will have to deal. If there are no banks on the reservation, they will have to deal with an outside bank who will probably want to put a branch on the reservation as part of the package. The banks will have to initially start with employees who live off-reservation - unless more loans are secured by developers to build quality housing on-reservation, which can only be a good thing for all involved, but will bring commercialization to serve the new neighborhoods....and on and on it goes. You can't get around this.

Unless you want to contend that living in a falling-apart trailer home with crumbling schools and dirt roads IS the "Indian way of life" that needs to be preserved - and, for the record, I would call you wrong about that - there's no rational argument against physical modernization of Native American reservations. There's nothing inherently white about houses with working plumbing and constant electricity and nearby supermarkets stocked full of food, that these things have to be resisted in order to preserve Indian culture.

 

[L.Y.S.]

Assumption based on facts not in evidence.

Ok

So American Indians have no access to libraries? Are you sure about that?

You ever saw a native library? Not much in there.

You've never been on an Indian reservation, have you?

You've never been to a reservation out west I presume.

Just to be clear here, your claim is that no American Indian anywhere has access to clean water or sewers? Are you sure of that?

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=37691&Cr=sanitation&Cr1

You made the claim, you provide the evidence.

No I didn't.

 

[L.Y.S.]

Unless you want to contend that living in a falling-apart trailer home with crumbling schools and dirt roads IS the "Indian way of life" that needs to be preserved - and, for the record, I would call you wrong about that - there's no rational argument against physical modernization of Native American reservations. There's nothing inherently white about houses with working plumbing and constant electricity and nearby supermarkets stocked full of food, that these things have to be resisted in order to preserve Indian culture.

Didn't say that is was "white" to have plumbing. I said they deserve water and sewage. Check your self bro. And for the record, there are Wal-Marts in Japan, yet they still have street vendors. I wonder where the word "balance" comes into play here.

 

[L.Y.S.]

Then what are you demanding? What's stopping them from developing their resources?

Barriers to economic development



"The King of the Seas in the Hands of the Makahs," photograph taken in 1910 of Makah Native Americans
Today, other than tribes successfully running casinos, many tribes struggle, often located on reservations isolated from the main economic centers of the country. The estimated 2.1 million Native Americans are the most impoverished of all ethnic groups. According to the 2000 Census, an estimated 400,000 Native Americans reside on reservation land. While some tribes have had success with gaming, only 40% of the 562 federally recognized tribes operate casinos.[163] According to a 2007 survey by the U.S. Small Business Administration, only 1% of Native Americans own and operate a business.[164] Native Americans rank at the bottom of nearly every social statistic: highest teen suicide rate of all minorities at 18.5 per 100,000, highest rate of teen pregnancy, highest high school drop-out rate at 54%, lowest per capita income, and unemployment rates between 50% to 90%.

The barriers to economic development on Native American reservations have been identified by Joseph Kalt[165] and Stephen Cornell[166] of the Harvard Project on American Indian Economic Development at Harvard University, in their report: What Can Tribes Do? Strategies and Institutions in American Indian Economic Development,[167] are summarized as follows:

Lack of access to capital.

Lack of human capital (education, skills, technical expertise) and the means to develop it.

Reservations lack effective planning.

Reservations are poor in natural resources.

Reservations have natural resources, but lack sufficient control over them.

Reservations are disadvantaged by their distance from markets and the high costs of transportation.

Tribes cannot persuade investors to locate on reservations because of intense competition from non-Native American communities.

The Bureau of Indian Affairs is inept, corrupt, and/or uninterested in reservation development.

Tribal politicians and bureaucrats are inept or corrupt.

On-reservation factionalism destroys stability in tribal decisions.

The instability of tribal government keeps outsiders from investing. (Many tribes adopted constitutions by the 1934 Indian Reorganization Act model, with two-year terms for elected positions of chief and council members deemed too short by the authors for getting things done)
Entrepreneurial skills and experience are scarce.

Tribal cultures get in the way.​

 

[WildCat]

That's because your white bro, your culture is everywhere. Your people have touched every spot on Earth and drastically changed it. You most likely can move to China and see signs of American culture. It's pretty easy not to lose your culture when your culture is the dominant one of Earth. This statement is irrelevant.

I can walk down my street and see Korean culture, Arab culture, Jewish culture, Mexican culture, German culture, Persian culture, Ethiopian culture, etc etc. There's at least 28 languages spoken in my neighborhood.

What was your point again?

I am not saying that is bad. I like Iphones, I like the internet, I love modern medicine, all these things are great! It's better than the medicine man back at the village and having to walk 5 villages over to talk to a friend. But I also like my culture, my language, and my heritage. Unlike Native Americans I can go to my village in Nigeria, go to a library and read my history. I can go there and have clean water to drink, healthy food to eat, and a safe place to stay with my grandmother. Why can't there be a balance between progress and heritage? This just seems like an escapist argument to me.

Excuse me? You're making a lot of claims you have yet to present evidence of. Please present your evidsence that Indian reservations:
1. Have no libraries where they can read about Indian history.
2. Do not have clean water to drink.
3. Have no healthy food to eat.
4. Have no grandmothers who welcome their grandchildren to stay in their safe house.

Why should they have to leave the reservation to get clean water and healthy food? There is no logical argument against it.

Again, present your evidence. Do you think Indians live in teepees or wigwams and have no running water?

Clean water and sewage, ever heard of that program?

Yes, will you ever present evidence that Indians on reservations do not have those things?

So their reservations have representation which gives them a voice in congress? Nah I doubt. You can show me up if you'd like.

Please cite the legal basis for Indian reservations to have their own Congressional delegation.

 

[L.Y.S.]

So basically what you are all saying is that there is not good reason to prohibit Native Americans from receiving more federal help other than pride and not wanting to invest in people who are "not like us." Ok

 

[WildCat]

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=37691&Cr=sanitation&Cr1

That was the best you could do?

"Quoting a study on the racial impact of water pricing and shut-off policies of the Boston Water and Sewer Commission, she noted that for every 1 per cent increase in Boston ward’s percentage of people of colour, the number of threatened cut offs increases by 4 per cent."

Which Indian reservations are in Boston again?

 

[WildCat]

Lack of finance or ownership. Unfortunately they don't get subsidies. That would help ya know.

What on earth are you talking about? Please provide examples.

eta: Have you ever been on an Indian reservation?

 

[WildCat]

So basically what you are all saying is that there is not good reason to prohibit Native Americans from receiving more federal help other than pride and not wanting to invest in people who are "not like us." Ok

I don't think anyone here said that.

Maybe that Strawman guy, apparently he's the only one you argue against.