The Future of Moral Science

Why do you think murder is immoral? This is what’s being asked. Please answer the question.



Again, the question remains “why do you think murder is immoral?



See above.



Again you evade tsig’s (and my) question. The issue is not about definitions, but how the conclusion that "murder is immoral" was arrived at.

Ah but we have the definition of murder as immoral killing therefore murder must be immoral because it is immoral.

It seems that we are given the "what" but not the "why".
 
Tassman-

What part of "murder* is immoral because murder is defined as immoral" don't you understand?
*Here I am using the Courier New to represent the string of graphemes–i.e., the specific sequence of written characters–murder, not the act itself of one human's ending of another human's life

Why is it defined as immoral?

Can humans define any act as immoral and make it so?
 
tsig-

Why is a bachelor defined as "an unmarried man"?

Why are you having such a difficult time understanding that definitions are the starting points for logical argumentation not starting points?
 
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It does. It provides an example of the difference between a prescriptive argument and a descriptive argument and demonstrates that the only substantive difference is a semantic one.

Let us review, and I'll show you the big difference between the two arguments.

I want the hut to be habitable.
The hut will not be habitable unless I heat it.
Therefore, I ought to heat the hut.

I want the hut to be habitable,
The hut will require heating in order be habitable.
Therefore, I will heat the hut.

The first argument is valid. It cannot be the case that the premises are true unless the conclusion is also true. The second argument is invalid. It may be the case that the premises are true -- indeed, I may even know that the premises are true -- and yet I will not heat the hut.

Clearly, the sentences "I ought to do X" and "I will do X" mean different things. They have different truth conditions. I still am puzzled what you mean when you insist that the difference is merely semantic. Please tell me what that means.

I ignored them on the basis of your erroneous assumptions underlying them. But, if you insist:



That’s not the argument.

Okay, so "ought" and "will" are not interchangeable. Good.

It is not necessarily so. Again you’re mischaracterizing the argument.

Okay. Perhaps I wouldn't be mischaracterizing the argument if you would tell me what the conclusion means.

True.



Not really. This claim only applies to a deductive philosophical argument. And the problem is philosophy’s inability to arrive at a testable true premise from which to deduce a true conclusion. This has resulted in some bizarre moral theories throughout history, especially when deities have been involved. E.g. Peter Abelard's theory of the atonement in the 12th century, whereby he he makes an impeccably valid philosophical argument. Just that it's all nonsense.

In your haste to go on a diatribe about philosophy, which I will not respond to, you failed to actually give an argument that I was wrong about the heart of moral theory. Let me give a brief argument that moral theories are essentially normative.

Morality, I take it, distinguishes good action from bad. It asserts that some acts or ends are to be pursued while others shunned. Fundamentally, moral theories are about values regarding human action, i.e., they are normative.

When a value is involved, there is a correspondingly appropriate motivation. It is appropriate to pursue that which is good, to avoid that which is bad. In such situations, the appropriateness of an attitude towards a value is expressed by an "ought". The connection between values and ought statements is so intimate, that we refer to ought statements as "norms".

Any moral theory which fails to distinguish good and bad ends, or to proscribe certain actions, is not fundamentally a moral theory at all. Moral theories are about what one ought to do.

Now, could you explain what you mean when you say "moral theory", if it does not consist of proscriptions?

Ah, the big finish. :rolleyes:

What science does discover are testable premises upon which rules of behaviour (i.e. moral theories) can be reasonably inferred.

"Rules of behaviour". Are these rules imperative ("Don't murder") or more like scientific rules, without exception? I'm sure you'll agree they are imperative.

But imperative rules are normative in nature. To say that there is a moral rule, "Don't murder," is equivalent to saying that murder is morally wrong, one ought not to murder. These statements have no difference in meaning that I can see.

As soon as you say that a moral theory involves proscriptive rules of behavior, you have agreed that moral theories are fundamentally about what one ought to do.
 
Why do you think murder is immoral? This is what’s being asked. Please answer the question.



Again, the question remains “why do you think murder is immoral?



See above.



Again you evade tsig’s (and my) question. The issue is not about definitions, but how the conclusion that "murder is immoral" was arrived at.

I won't bother responding any further to this particular pointless line of "debate", because you simply don't seem to understand how the meanings of words affect the meanings of sentences in which they occur. Honestly, this little aside isn't about morality, it's about so-called analytic truths.

Murder means "immoral killing" and immoral killings are immoral.

You might as well ask how I know that lemons (American slang) don't run well, how I know that bachelors are unmarried, how I know that triangles have three angles, how I know that even numbers are divisible by two. In each case, my answer is the same: that's what the word means.

Now, you could ask which killings are murder. That's a different question. It's also one that is mostly irrelevant (as far as I can see) to the question at hand here: can science discover morality? Perhaps those who say that science can do so should have an account of how to answer that question. The rest of us have no such onus.
 
Let us review, and I'll show you the big difference between the two arguments.

I want the hut to be habitable.
The hut will not be habitable unless I heat it.
Therefore, I ought to heat the hut.

I want the hut to be habitable,
The hut will require heating in order be habitable.
Therefore, I will heat the hut.

The first argument is valid. It cannot be the case that the premises are true unless the conclusion is also true. The second argument is invalid. It may be the case that the premises are true -- indeed, I may even know that the premises are true -- and yet I will not heat the hut.

Clearly, the sentences "I ought to do X" and "I will do X" mean different things. They have different truth conditions. I still am puzzled what you mean when you insist that the difference is merely semantic. Please tell me what that means.



Okay, so "ought" and "will" are not interchangeable. Good.



Okay. Perhaps I wouldn't be mischaracterizing the argument if you would tell me what the conclusion means.



In your haste to go on a diatribe about philosophy, which I will not respond to, you failed to actually give an argument that I was wrong about the heart of moral theory. Let me give a brief argument that moral theories are essentially normative.

Morality, I take it, distinguishes good action from bad. It asserts that some acts or ends are to be pursued while others shunned. Fundamentally, moral theories are about values regarding human action, i.e., they are normative.

When a value is involved, there is a correspondingly appropriate motivation. It is appropriate to pursue that which is good, to avoid that which is bad. In such situations, the appropriateness of an attitude towards a value is expressed by an "ought". The connection between values and ought statements is so intimate, that we refer to ought statements as "norms".

Any moral theory which fails to distinguish good and bad ends, or to proscribe certain actions, is not fundamentally a moral theory at all. Moral theories are about what one ought to do.

Now, could you explain what you mean when you say "moral theory", if it does not consist of proscriptions?



"Rules of behaviour". Are these rules imperative ("Don't murder") or more like scientific rules, without exception? I'm sure you'll agree they are imperative.

But imperative rules are normative in nature. To say that there is a moral rule, "Don't murder," is equivalent to saying that murder is morally wrong, one ought not to murder. These statements have no difference in meaning that I can see.

As soon as you say that a moral theory involves proscriptive rules of behavior, you have agreed that moral theories are fundamentally about what one ought to do.

Once again you state "Murder is morally wrong because we say "murder is morally wrong".

We might also say that "Eating meat on Friday is morally wrong because we say it is morally wrong"
 
Once again you state "Murder is morally wrong because we say "murder is morally wrong".

We might also say that "Eating meat on Friday is morally wrong because we say it is morally wrong"

You are conflating two separate ways of designating an action as moral: the former being as a definition or premise; the latter being a result or conclusion.
 
Once again you state "Murder is morally wrong because we say "murder is morally wrong".

We might also say that "Eating meat on Friday is morally wrong because we say it is morally wrong"

Actually, no, in this case, I didn't say murder is wrong because it is wrong, but I should have been sensitive to the fact that the term "murder" is the cause of a pointless argument and avoided it.

So, let me rewrite what I said.


But imperative rules are normative in nature. To say that there is a moral rule, "Don't burp," is equivalent to saying that burping is morally wrong, one ought not to burp. These statements have no difference in meaning that I can see.
​

Now, a careful reader will recognize that I never said burping is morally wrong. I said that the following statements are equivalent.

(1) "Don't burp" is a moral rule.
(2) Burping is morally wrong.
(3) One ought (morally speaking) not to burp.

(Caveat: I omitted the highlighted portion and hence misspoke. "Ought" has non-moral meanings as well, of course.)
 
Is killing wrong? - there will be some differences of opinion on that, although those who believe that there is a science of morality will have to answer it.

Is murder wrong? - the clue is in the question.
 
It is–I don't know the word–that the posters, and the authors whose positions they claim to recount, who are advocating "scientific morality" are simultaneously so eager to convey the revolutionary direction that science can give the study (and determination) of ethics and apparently profoundly ignorant of the basic vocabulary of ethics.
 
Why are all vixens female? Maybe if we do an empirical investigations we might find some male ones, right?

I bet what we need to do is look at your brain and find the evolutionary reason why you think that all vixens are female. That will tell us whether or not you are right, in the most efficient possible way!

Of course science is the way to investigate the female vixen problem. You need to look at a sufficiently large sample of vixens to generate a solid p-value, and of course you shouldn't say that all vixens are female because you haven't proved that, because more research is needed. You might end up being able to say that out of a sample of 239 vixens they were all female, but you still haven't ruled out experimental error. What's your false positive rate when sexing female foxes? Unless we know that we can't really say.

Clearly it's time scientists took a hand and really dug in to the neurology of thinking vixens are female, it's the only way we'll ever know anything.
 
Actually, no, in this case, I didn't say murder is wrong because it is wrong, but I should have been sensitive to the fact that the term "murder" is the cause of a pointless argument and avoided it.

So, let me rewrite what I said.


But imperative rules are normative in nature. To say that there is a moral rule, "Don't burp," is equivalent to saying that burping is morally wrong, one ought not to burp. These statements have no difference in meaning that I can see.
​

Now, a careful reader will recognize that I never said burping is morally wrong. I said that the following statements are equivalent.

(1) "Don't burp" is a moral rule.
(2) Burping is morally wrong.
(3) One ought (morally speaking) not to burp.

(Caveat: I omitted the highlighted portion and hence misspoke. "Ought" has non-moral meanings as well, of course.)

Got it. So burping is wrong because burping is wrong. :)

Uh, and "Don't burp" is a moral rule because....?
 
Got it. So burping is wrong because burping is wrong. :)

Uh, and "Don't burp" is a moral rule because....?

Honestly, Tassman, your inability to read perfectly clear posts is amazing.

Here's what I said:


Now, a careful reader will recognize that I never said burping is morally wrong. I said that the following statements are equivalent.

(1) "Don't burp" is a moral rule.
(2) Burping is morally wrong.
(3) One ought (morally speaking) not to burp.
​

Think carefully, now. Is there a difference between the following statements?

"'Don't burp' is a moral rule" is equivalent to "Burping is morally wrong."

Burping is morally wrong because burping is morally wrong.

I'll give you a hint. The first sentence does not say a damned thing about whether burping is morally wrong or not.

Really, do try to read what is written. Thanks much.
 
Let us review, and I'll show you the big difference between the two arguments.

I want the hut to be habitable.
The hut will not be habitable unless I heat it.
Therefore, I ought to heat the hut.
I want the hut to be habitable,
The hut will require heating in order be habitable.
Therefore, I will heat the hut.

Correct,the first is a deductive 'is/ought' argument. The second is an inductive argument based upon inference which, in case you missed it, is what I am arguing for. Thus the difference between the conclusions of a prescriptive argument and a descriptive is one of semantics, which is my point.

Furthermore, the premise that "for a hut to be habitable it requires heating" is essentially based upon scientific reasoning, so even here science has its role to play in determining a premise to a logical syllogism.
 
Honestly, Tassman, your inability to read perfectly clear posts is amazing.

Here's what I said:


Now, a careful reader will recognize that I never said burping is morally wrong. I said that the following statements are equivalent.

(1) "Don't burp" is a moral rule.
(2) Burping is morally wrong.
(3) One ought (morally speaking) not to burp.
​

Think carefully, now. Is there a difference between the following statements?

"'Don't burp' is a moral rule" is equivalent to "Burping is morally wrong."

Burping is morally wrong because burping is morally wrong.

I'll give you a hint. The first sentence does not say a damned thing about whether burping is morally wrong or not.

Really, do try to read what is written. Thanks much.

Got it. So burping is wrong because burping is wrong. :D

Uh, and "Don't burp" is wrong because....?
 
Got it. So burping is wrong because burping is wrong. :D

Uh, and "Don't burp" is wrong because....?

Oh, you are a funny one! Why, you keep me in stitches!

Any time you'd actually like to express a full and coherent thought that is relevant to what I have said, you let me know. I'll be here waiting.
 
Correct,the first is a deductive 'is/ought' argument. The second is an inductive argument based upon inference which, in case you missed it, is what I am arguing for.

In what way is the second an inductive argument? Are you now saying that, when you wrote the following argument,

I want the hut to be habitable,
The hut will require heating in order be habitable.
Therefore, I will heat the hut.

what you meant was that the conclusion was probable? On what grounds was it probable? What kind of inductive argument is this?

The other argument has rather more going for it. It is objectively true that, given the premises, I really do have a reason to heat the hut, whether I actually heat it or not. Indeed, insofar as I continue to pursue the end of making the hut habitable while not forming an intention to heat the hut (despite realizing the necessity), it is clear that I am being literally irrational. This is what is conveyed by the use of "ought" in the conclusion.


Thus the difference between the conclusions of a prescriptive argument and a descriptive is one of semantics, which is my point.

I cannot determine whether the "thus" is apt, since I still don't know what you mean to say the difference is "one of semantics". Can you please tell me what you mean? I can't, evidently, guess it from context and you are not using the term "semantics" here in any way I'm familiar.

Let me explain. Some time ago, in a different thread, I had a disagreement which eventually I realized was due to mere semantics. I was using the term "norm" as it is commonly used in philosophy, to mean an "ought statement". The other guy was using the term as it is commonly used in plain English, as a model of what is typical. We were disagreeing over the claims in question because we were interpreting the claims differently. It was merely a semantic difference.

I don't see how this is the case here, or, if it is, how your argument shows it is the case.

Furthermore, the premise that "for a hut to be habitable it requires heating" is essentially based upon scientific reasoning, so even here science has its role to play in determining a premise to a logical syllogism.

As far as the highlighted bit, yes, as everyone has repeatedly said, facts about the world (which are discoverable by science) are relevant to practical reasoning. Not sure why you keep pretending this is something novel you've contributed to the conversation, but tell you what. Let me be the first to congratulate you for making this deep and insightful point, which no one else has had the keen vision to recognize, and we may move on.
 
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Oh, you are a funny one! Why, you keep me in stitches!

Any time you'd actually like to express a full and coherent thought that is relevant to what I have said, you let me know. I'll be here waiting.

Glad to amuse. But you have yet to answer the question. How do you arrive at the premise that "burping" is wrong or "murder" is wrong or any other such premise to a deductive syllogism without assuming the premise? Because, unless you are invoking divine prescriptions, this is all you are doing, i.e. assuming, or asserting your premises.
 

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