The Future of Moral Science

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It shows the necessity for a true premise in order to arrive at true conclusion. Aristotle did not have the means to do this and nor do modern philosophers. Only science has the methodology to test its premises. Hence philosophy can never be more than a tool of science, albeit a useful one.

Help!!! There are no true premises. You run into Fries', Münchhausen's and Agrippa's trilemma. Tassman, neither philosophy nor science can establish foundationally true premises. I really don't like this notion that somehow science is special and where philosophy failed, science doesn't because science is not philosophy. I.e. you hand-wave the word science and somehow that means that the epidemiological problem of foundational premises disappears.


What IS a scientifically verifiable proposition (as you have previously agreed) is the fact that science has established humans to be a social species and, as such, require social cohesion in order to survive. Thus we can infer from this that rape is demonstrably harmful to the social fabric. Hence rape is wrong.

That is blatantly false, as all members of a species need not to replicate for the species to survive and you disconnect aspect of sexual competition in replication.

Historically the definitions of ‘rape’ have varied e.g. whether having forced intercourse with one’s wife is “rape” (as we tend to see it today) or merely a husband claiming his conjugal rights (as it was seen previously) OR whether raping and pillaging rival tribes is OK (as per Moses) or not OK (as we think today, unless you're a Muslim fanatic). But as a general rule one can reasonably say that rape per se is wrong.

So non-Muslim soldiers didn't rape during the Yugoslavian civil war, only Muslim soldiers rape. Your bias is showing.

Tassman, I urge you to take off your blinders regarding philosophy and science and learn to accept the fact that there are no true premises in practice. :)

BTW -
We [scientists] wouldn't know truth if it jumped up and bit us in the ass. We're probably fairly good at recognizing what's false, and that's what science does on a day-to-day basis, but we can't claim to identify truth.

Dr. Steven M. Holland, University of Georgia Geology Professor
 
Help!!! There are no true premises. You run into Fries', Münchhausen's and Agrippa's trilemma. Tassman, neither philosophy nor science can establish foundationally true premises. I really don't like this notion that somehow science is special and where philosophy failed, science doesn't because science is not philosophy. I.e. you hand-wave the word science and somehow that means that the epidemiological problem of foundational premises disappears.

This has been my argument all along.

But science is in a far better position than philosophy to establish a reliable premise because, unlike philosophy, it can test them and thus eliminate such fanciful notions as say, Aristotle’s “four elements” upon which the constitution and fundamental powers of everything were supposedly based.

That is blatantly false, as all members of a species need not to replicate for the species to survive and you disconnect aspect of sexual competition in replication.

I didn't say they did.

The issue was whether or not science has established that the human animal is a social species along with what this implies by way of concomitant behaviour. I think there can be little doubt that we are a social species along with most of our fellow primates.

So non-Muslim soldiers didn't rape during the Yugoslavian civil war, only Muslim soldiers rape. Your bias is showing.

No, your bias is showing. The point was the regression to an ‘us/them’ mindset as generally found in tribal behaviour and warfare as your example indicates.

Tassman, I urge you to take off your blinders regarding philosophy and science and learn to accept the fact that there are no true premises in practice. :)

Indeed, but testable premises are preferable to non-testable premises wouldn't you say? E.g. it took science, not philosophy, to discredit the ancient geocentric, celestial spheres model of the universe.


So, “We [scientists] wouldn't know truth if it jumped up and bit us in the ass”. Oh well, that settles it then. :rolleyes:
 
Okay, Tassman

This post is me rounding off this debate:

Someone: We can use science to test moral claims.
Me: No, we can neither observe right nor wrong, thus we can't use science to test and do morality and ethics.
 
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It's just amazing how Harris has inflamed so many otherwise smart people into believing what he says. And amazing that it takes millions of man-posts across the internets to argue against his claims.

"Science can decide moral questions" is a category error, for as long as it clearly is (and review of Harris' poor arguments shows he hasn't done anything to dispute this). This isn't, or shouldn't be, complicated or tough to realize.

"Maximizing the well-being of conscious creatures" is a given according to Harris. But science sure as hell didn't say that. Science doesn't give a yarn about any creatures--not their health, not their well-being, not their evolutionary predilections, not any species' continued survival. Science isn't a human mind. Science can't decide morality (see category error). The "debate" should've just been settled after this.

It's remarkable that it wasn't and was/is instead kept on by supposed logical/rational thinkers. I'm a bit reminded of the 2008 election, from Bush to Obama. Many former "progressives" stopped caring about many things Bush did which yet Obama continued. In internet message boards, it was a quick way to determine who was a real liberal or progressive and who was instead in-name-only. Same for after 2002, when Bush did a ton of anti-Conservative stuff, yet "conservatives" still defended his spending and increased government agencies.

And I can't help but think that the same people latching on to Harris' BS are the same sorts that would in the past, and now, latch on to God or Siva or Muhammed as the things that will decide morality. They can't accept that morality is not objective. Not comfortable facing a reality that they need to form their own unique yet equally justifiable [arguments granted against, but not from science] moral view and actions. Or they have a desire that a single thing (science, God, etc.) can answer everything for them. They'd rather be comforted by a higher....well, power for religion, intellect/scientist for Harris I guess (or both for him, he latches on to Buddhism too), telling them what morality should be.

I think there was a question posed weeks ago that I'm not sure was answered: "well, you've eliminated science and philosophy and metaphysics as the basis for morality, so what's left--religion?" My answer is: "There's no 'basis'. Nothing is 'left' because there's no definitive answer. So, sorry--suck it up and form your own views. Not everything has a scientifically quantifiable answer."
 
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...

I think there was a question posed weeks ago that I'm not sure was answered: "well, you've eliminated science and philosophy and metaphysics as the basis for morality, so what's left--religion?" My answer is: "There's no 'basis'. Nothing is 'left' because there's no definitive answer. So, sorry--suck it up and form your own views. Not everything has a scientifically quantifiable answer."

Yes, that is it.
 
They can't accept that morality is not objective.

Why should they, if it's false?

As with most philosophical questions, it depends on what you mean by "objective".

There are several corners to this fight, with people afraid of all sorts of things. There are people afraid that morality might not be objective, there are also people afraid it might be. The hullaballoo sort of cancels out, and it's not that interesting anyway.

Where Harris is undoubtedly correct, is that if moral well-being is the goal, then there are objective questions wrt how to maximize it, granted the nature of the world and the creatures whose well-being is to be maximized.

Where there is doubt, is whether maximizing well-being is a moral goal that's somehow objectively mandated.
 
Why should they, if it's false?

As with most philosophical questions, it depends on what you mean by "objective".

There are several corners to this fight, with people afraid of all sorts of things. There are people afraid that morality might not be objective, there are also people afraid it might be. The hullaballoo sort of cancels out, and it's not that interesting anyway.

Where Harris is undoubtedly correct, is that if moral well-being is the goal, then there are objective questions wrt how to maximize it, granted the nature of the world and the creatures whose well-being is to be maximized.

Where there is doubt, is whether maximizing well-being is a moral goal that's somehow objectively mandated.

It is reasonable for science to infer, from observation and induction, that social well-being is a preferable state of being compared with social misery. Especially given what science tells us about the natural characteristics of human beings as an evolved social species with instinctive notions of right and wrong, fair and unfair behaviour.

We’re not talking "objectively mandated" truths here. Science typically relies upon falsifiable theories rather than objective truths. Hence, it makes more sense to argue for moral theories backed by evidence, rather than attempt to provide definitive moral truths which is more the province of religion in any event.
 
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It is reasonable for science to infer, from observation and induction, that social well-being is a preferable state of being compared with social misery. Especially given what science tells us about the natural characteristics of human beings as an evolved social species with instinctive notions of right and wrong, fair and unfair behaviour.

We’re not talking "objectively mandated" truths here. Science typically relies upon falsifiable theories rather than objective truths. Hence, it makes more sense to argue for moral theories backed by evidence, rather than attempt to provide definitive moral truths which is more the province of religion in any event.

I'd rather put it:-

All that science can tell us is that that's a "free-floating rationale" - i.e. well being (don't know where the "social" comes from?) is a possible goal to be maximized.

Just like: in nature, with biological things constructed as they are, reproductive fitness is a possible goal to be maximized.

In neither case is there an ultimate "ought" involved until that free-floating rationale is taken on: the "ought" is always, and can only be, purely instrumental ("if ... then").

The place that the "ought" regarding the ultimacy of the goal of human well-being comes from, is spiritual/mystical experience (as you say, from religion - but from the "good" aspect of religion, so to speak, from its essential core), and the direct experience of the relative/"illusory" nature of the self/other distinction, and concomitant direct experience of essential and intrinsic non-difference from the Whole. This eventually filters down, culturally, to the Golden Rule, love your neighbour as yourself, etc., etc.
 
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I'd rather put it:-

All that science can tell us is that that's a "free-floating rationale" - i.e. well being (don't know where the "social" comes from?) is a possible goal to be maximized.

“Social” comes from the demonstrable fact that we are a social species with codes of right and wrong behaviour occurring within a social context - as is well understood by behavioural scientists.

Just like: in nature, with biological things constructed as they are, reproductive fitness is a possible goal to be maximized.

Natural selection ensures that reproductive fitness for the environment, i.e. survival, is an actual goal, not just a possible goal.

In neither case is there an ultimate "ought" involved until that free-floating rationale is taken on: the "ought" is always, and can only be, purely instrumental ("if ... then").

Correct. Why would you expect more?

The place that the "ought" regarding the ultimacy of the goal of human well-being comes from, is spiritual/mystical experience (as you say, from religion - but from the "good" aspect of religion, so to speak, from its essential core), and the direct experience of the relative/"illusory" nature of the self/other distinction, and concomitant direct experience of essential and intrinsic non-difference from the Whole.

As always, this is where you lose me. You have taken a leap of faith. There’s no reason, other than a subjective one, for such language as “ought” coming from “direct experience of essential and intrinsic non-difference from the Whole”. What “Whole!” Where did this concept suddenly spring from?

After all, instinctive behaviours such as cooperation and a sense of fairness existed long before any notions of mysticism or religion developed. They even pre-date our humanity. As Harris says, “Do you think that capuchin monkeys are worried about fairness as an abstract principle, or do you think they just don’t like the way it feels to be treated unfairly?” Research indicates the latter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meiU6TxysCg

This eventually filters down, culturally, to the Golden Rule, love your neighbour as yourself, etc., etc.

There’s good reason why the Golden Rule, in its various forms, is found in virtually every human culture throughout history. It long pre-dates Jesus and embodies the direct and indirect reciprocity which is instinctive, via natural selection, for a social species such as us.
 
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Where Harris is undoubtedly correct, is that if moral well-being is the goal, then there are objective questions wrt how to maximize it, granted the nature of the world and the creatures whose well-being is to be maximized.

This, of course, would be preternaturally trite. I already know that e.g. vaccines, which are the product of science, improve my well being.

Of course, you said "moral well-being." What could that even mean? It's even worse than assuming that morality is about well being. That, at least, is a clear assertion. "Moral well-being" is infinitely recursive.
 
This, of course, would be preternaturally trite. I already know that e.g. vaccines, which are the product of science, improve my well being.

Of course, you said "moral well-being." What could that even mean? It's even worse than assuming that morality is about well being. That, at least, is a clear assertion. "Moral well-being" is infinitely recursive.

To take a quick and dirty stab at it: moral well-being is to the mind what health is to the body.
 
After all, instinctive behaviours such as cooperation and a sense of fairness existed long before any notions of mysticism or religion developed. They even pre-date our humanity. As Harris says, “Do you think that capuchin monkeys are worried about fairness as an abstract principle, or do you think they just don’t like the way it feels to be treated unfairly?” Research indicates the latter.

That's why I think that mysticism and religion are actually just attempts at explaining why we "don't like the way it feels." People have a tendency to anthropomorphize things they don't understand, to put some sort of human-like agency behind it, whether it's a thunder-god controlling lightning or a god of the hunt controlling luck at hunting. In the same vein, there must be a god controlling why people have these certain strong feelings that they should act a certain way or enforce others to act a certain way. It's the same kind of attempt to put agency behind a situation that can better be understood differently, in this case a biologically inbred feeling due to natural selection.
 
“Social” comes from the demonstrable fact that we are a social species with codes of right and wrong behaviour occurring within a social context - as is well understood by behavioural scientists.

It's the combination of "social" and "well-being" that's puzzling me - do you mean "well-being as that's defined by society"? Or "the well-being of society"?

Natural selection ensures that reproductive fitness for the environment, i.e. survival, is an actual goal, not just a possible goal.

Yes, but it's an accident that a mechanism happened to arise to exploit the free-floating rationale.

Correct. Why would you expect more?

It's not that I expect more, it's that there is a more to be explained (i.e. the expansion of the "circle of regard" beyond kin altruism).

As always, this is where you lose me. You have taken a leap of faith. There’s no reason, other than a subjective one, for such language as “ought” coming from “direct experience of essential and intrinsic non-difference from the Whole”. What “Whole!” Where did this concept suddenly spring from?

The sense of self (self-identification, "what I am") roughly speaking, divides what's inside the "moist robot"'s skin bag from outside. With non-dual experience, that dividing line is directly understood, seen and experienced as it actually, objectively is - as only relatively valid and even as (to some extent) arbitrary. It's the total causal system of the world, the whole, that's the ultimate cause of (that focusses-down-on, so to speak), that moist robot, that particular human causal bundle, and that is what the moist robot understands itself to finally, truly and absolutely be - as a sort of "feeler" or "eye" of the Whole (i.e. the whole, causally interconnected complex of matter/energy - although of course since those concepts weren't available in the past, it was cast differently in older systems, usually something like "Consciousness" with a big C - or God).

That being the case, since the sense of "what I am", the self-identification, has shifted to the infinite Whole, the "circle of regard" ("what I care for") also instantly shoots out to infinity, to all that is. (Of course the mapping from the sense of self-identification to the Whole isn't quite the same as the mapping from the sense of self-identification to the body - tigers are still dangerous and all that - it's perhaps more like a sense of kinship, a real feeling of mutual stardustiness underlying all the relative differences.)

After all, instinctive behaviours such as cooperation and a sense of fairness existed long before any notions of mysticism or religion developed. They even pre-date our humanity. As Harris says, “Do you think that capuchin monkeys are worried about fairness as an abstract principle, or do you think they just don’t like the way it feels to be treated unfairly?” Research indicates the latter.

Yes, but kin altruism only gets you so far. It forms a stable, extensible platform so to speak, something on which to build. But it doesn't itself go beyond family and tribe - there is no instrumental rationality from kin altruism that goes beyond that.

Indeed, what morality usually has to fight against is the constant pull back to the biologically-drawn boundaries, the constant tug to view other families and tribes as competitors only (or as means only).

There’s good reason why the Golden Rule, in its various forms, is found in virtually every human culture throughout history. It long pre-dates Jesus and embodies the direct and indirect reciprocity which is instinctive, via natural selection, for a social species such as us.

But again, that only covers family and tribe. The extra step of cosmopolitanism - of viewing all human beings, even those outside your tribe - as sort of like brothers and sisters, that isn't given by anything biologically driven.

That comes from spirituality, and ultimately, from non-dual experiences and experiences of self-transcendence had strongly by some people, and weakly by most people.
 
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But again, that only covers family and tribe. The extra step of cosmopolitanism - of viewing all human beings, even those outside your tribe - as sort of like brothers and sisters, that isn't given by anything biologically driven.

That comes from spirituality, and ultimately, from non-dual experiences and experiences of self-transcendence had strongly by some people, and weakly by most people.

Why can't it be the other way around, with nothing unusual required beyond the usual loyalty to tribe? In other words, the situation is not that people start to view those outside their tribe as like brothers and sisters. Instead, they broaden the definition of tribe to include those others, and then by definition those others are treated better.

Trading, associating or communicating with a group that one hasn't done those things with before, and eventually having some members living amongst them for long periods and intermarrying with them, will turn a former "them" into an "us," as it has for time immemorial.
 
To take a quick and dirty stab at it: moral well-being is to the mind what health is to the body.

There's already a term for that: mental health. What's moral about it? Unless the goal is to have "moral" mean anything at all and win by default.
 
That's why I think that mysticism and religion are actually just attempts at explaining why we "don't like the way it feels." People have a tendency to anthropomorphize things they don't understand, to put some sort of human-like agency behind it, whether it's a thunder-god controlling lightning or a god of the hunt controlling luck at hunting. In the same vein, there must be a god controlling why people have these certain strong feelings that they should act a certain way or enforce others to act a certain way. It's the same kind of attempt to put agency behind a situation that can better be understood differently, in this case a biologically inbred feeling due to natural selection.

Yes. Mysticism and religion just give an imprimatur, so to speak, to pre-existing natural instincts. This is evidenced by the fact that the precursors of our notions of right and wrong behaviour exist among most primates. One doesn't refer to this behaviour being informed by mysticism and religion. It is natural and instinctive.
 
It's the combination of "social" and "well-being" that's puzzling me - do you mean "well-being as that's defined by society"? Or "the well-being of society"?

Both!

Yes, but it's an accident that a mechanism happened to arise to exploit the free-floating rationale.

An accident only in the sense that organisms better adapted to their environment tend to survive and those that aren't tend to go extinct! This is what’s meant by ‘natural selection’.

It's not that I expect more, it's that there is a more to be explained (i.e. the expansion of the "circle of regard" beyond kin altruism).

No there’s not. Pup put it better than I could in his #374:

“…the situation is not that people start to view those outside their tribe as like brothers and sisters. Instead, they broaden the definition of tribe to include those others, and then by definition those others are treated better”.

I think that’s exactly right.

The sense of self (self-identification, "what I am") roughly speaking, divides what's inside the "moist robot"'s skin bag from outside. With non-dual experience, that dividing line is directly understood, seen and experienced as it actually, objectively is - as only relatively valid and even as (to some extent) arbitrary. It's the total causal system of the world, the whole, that's the ultimate cause of (that focusses-down-on, so to speak), that moist robot, that particular human causal bundle, and that is what the moist robot understands itself to finally, truly and absolutely be - as a sort of "feeler" or "eye" of the Whole (i.e. the whole, causally interconnected complex of matter/energy - although of course since those concepts weren't available in the past, it was cast differently in older systems, usually something like "Consciousness" with a big C - or God).

That being the case, since the sense of "what I am", the self-identification, has shifted to the infinite Whole, the "circle of regard" ("what I care for") also instantly shoots out to infinity, to all that is. (Of course the mapping from the sense of self-identification to the Whole isn't quite the same as the mapping from the sense of self-identification to the body - tigers are still dangerous and all that - it's perhaps more like a sense of kinship, a real feeling of mutual stardustiness underlying all the relative differences.)

There is no reason to think that this "sense of other” or “being a part of the whole” is anything more than a natural by-product of the material brain. Studies have shown that a broad network of frontal and parietal brain regions underlies mystical/spiritual beliefs and that such experiences can be readily stimulated artificially by probes, or chemical means such as the drug Ketamine, or consequent upon certain types of brain damage.

http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100210/full/news.2010.66.html

Yes, but kin altruism only gets you so far. It forms a stable, extensible platform so to speak, something on which to build. But it doesn't itself go beyond family and tribe - there is no instrumental rationality from kin altruism that goes beyond that.

Indeed, what morality usually has to fight against is the constant pull back to the biologically-drawn boundaries, the constant tug to view other families and tribes as competitors only (or as means only).

It demonstrably does. See above. The whole planet is in the process of becoming, in effect, a global village, i.e. a planet-wide interconnected "tribe".

But again, that only covers family and tribe. The extra step of cosmopolitanism - of viewing all human beings, even those outside your tribe - as sort of like brothers and sisters, that isn't given by anything biologically driven.

See above.

That comes from spirituality, and ultimately, from non-dual experiences and experiences of self-transcendence had strongly by some people, and weakly by most people.

Frankly, I don’t see how you’ve arrived at this conclusion.
 
Why can't it be the other way around, with nothing unusual required beyond the usual loyalty to tribe? In other words, the situation is not that people start to view those outside their tribe as like brothers and sisters. Instead, they broaden the definition of tribe to include those others, and then by definition those others are treated better.

Trading, associating or communicating with a group that one hasn't done those things with before, and eventually having some members living amongst them for long periods and intermarrying with them, will turn a former "them" into an "us," as it has for time immemorial.

Family and tribe are circumscribed by genetics (genetic "closeness" - forget the technical term); or to put it another way, biology gives a basis that's non-stretchable in and of itself. And since instrumental, utilitarian reasoning is based on this, it can have no inner, self-propelled motivation to stretch beyond the biologically given boundary either, i.e. self, family and tribe (note: instrumental reasoning being different from pure reason, which has no boundary - but the problem being that pure, questing reason can't form a basis for morality as it has no power to move the emotions, e.g. a clear purview of reality can help a murderer as much as it can help a saint).

The logic is parallel with things like free speech or keeping a found purse - protecting free speech you don't like is the test of free speech; handing in a found purse even when you could certainly get away with keeping it, is a test of your morality. In all cases, the point is precisely to go beyond what would be rational from an instrumental point of view (which cares only for self, family, tribe). The point is precisely that I treat a person who is evidently NOT of my tribe morally.

I agree in a broad way with what you say - something is expanding, the circle of regard, and that happens where people mix, and indeed trade has been particularly important there.

But I don't think that's done by re-definition - why would instrumental reason re-define, stretch like that?

Or again, both the saint and murderer above-mentioned (whose reason in the broader sense has more universal scope) see the similarity across human physiology, that there's a sameness there. But that alone can't lead the murderer beyond self-gratification at the expense of others, and for the saint, it's redundant.
 
There's already a term for that: mental health. What's moral about it? Unless the goal is to have "moral" mean anything at all and win by default.

Well yes, mental health, mental well-being do have a big intersection, although they're not quite the same thing (someone who's mentally healthy will likely feel good about life).

But it's not that "mental health" means "moral", it's that what's moral is to have regard for peoples' mental health, mental well-being, well-being, happiness.
 

I don't see what those have to do with the issue. Either by "society" one means "the collection of individuals", in which case the well-being of society is just shorthand for the several well-being of the collection of individuals; or by society one means the abstraction, in which case there's no issue of its well-being.

An accident only in the sense that organisms better adapted to their environment tend to survive and those that aren't tend to go extinct! This is what’s meant by ‘natural selection’.

Yes of course, but there was no reason why such a thing should have ever come about, even though the potential, the "free-floating rationale" (the possibility of such chemical and biological processes occurring with such a result) was always there in the way matter is structured.

No there’s not. Pup put it better than I could in his #374:

“…the situation is not that people start to view those outside their tribe as like brothers and sisters. Instead, they broaden the definition of tribe to include those others, and then by definition those others are treated better”.

I think that’s exactly right.

I think it's insufficient (please see my response to pup above).

There is no reason to think that this "sense of other” or “being a part of the whole” is anything more than a natural by-product of the material brain. Studies have shown that a broad network of frontal and parietal brain regions underlies mystical/spiritual beliefs and that such experiences can be readily stimulated artificially by probes, or chemical means such as the drug Ketamine, or consequent upon certain types of brain damage.

http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100210/full/news.2010.66.html

Uh, yes, sure, what's that got to do with anything? I never claimed feeling part of the whole wasn't a natural by-product of the brain!

So is uttering "1+1=2" a natural by-product of the brain, that doesn't stop it being true. So is listening to Beethoven a natural by-product of the brain; that doesn't stop it being a glorious experience shared by many, many people.

Beware of nothing buttery! It's not the friend it seems ;)

It demonstrably does. See above. The whole planet is in the process of becoming, in effect, a global village, i.e. a planet-wide interconnected "tribe".

In the vague sense of "village" and "tribe" yes; but also, through the means I'm talking about, not on the basis of biology or instrumental reasoning alone.

Re. "spirituality", it depends on what connotations you freight the term with, I'm explaining mine ambulando.
 
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