The Freeman Movement and England

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One of the problems with debating the FMOTL "logic" is that they aren't clear on whether they're describing the way the law currently works, or the way the law should work. In the latter case, this becomes a theoretical exercise at best, with little to recommend it. However, the various experiments with trying to befuddle police officers and the judiciary seem to indicate that they think that this is the way the law actually works. This puts us firmly in the domain of factual claims, which require evidence. So far, I haven't seen much in that way.

Another problem is a difference in basic principles. FMOTL do not accept the authority of representatives of a democratic nation, which all the other members of said nations do (I'm not sure what FMOTL think laws are backed by). That means that any proof offered by one side is unlikely to be accepted by the other.

Even with all this said, I have yet to see an FMOTL demonstrate the facts or logic behind any of the basic ideas of their movement - "admiralty courts", "strawman"... or for that matter, the idea that mutually agreed contracts are required before the law can take effect.
 
We had a FMOTL appearing in our (Criminal) court the other day. He arrived with a claque of friends (one of whom was advising him everytime he answered a question). When he was asked to confirm his identity he spouted the usual twaddle -exactly according to their rules.
However the District Judge before whom he was appearing ( a wily type) told him to be quiet and told the usher to call out the defendant's name again. Only reply is the same formula from the FMOTL. The DJ then says that as the defendant hasn't surrendered to his bail - a warrant will be issued for his arrest. FMOTL and friends protest - DJ orders Court Security to remove him from the court. Outside the courtroom a girl with him intervenes screaming about him being beaten up (not true). She is promptly restrained by a couple of cops hanging around to give evidence in another trial. Another of group thinks its a grand idea to video everything on his mobile phone - a contempt of court which earns him his very own arrest...
 
Ok, this peace officer, what would he do if

a) I throw a stone in a window
b) He didn't know me, and I refused to tell him who I was
c) Walked away
d) Ran away
e) Didn't appear to take judgement by my peers
f) Was no longer present at the scene of the crime when he arrived
g) Couldn't be bothered to pay the fine the jury of my peers had determined?

I mean... if he is not using force he can't even stand in my way to block me from just walking away, can he?
 
magellan said:
Ok, this peace officer, what would he do if

a) I throw a stone in a window
b) He didn't know me, and I refused to tell him who I was
c) Walked away
d) Ran away
e) Didn't appear to take judgement by my peers
f) Was no longer present at the scene of the crime when he arrived
g) Couldn't be bothered to pay the fine the jury of my peers had determined?

I mean... if he is not using force he can't even stand in my way to block me from just walking away, can he?
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I'm reminded of a Robin Williams bit, from back when British police didn't carry guns. "What's he supposed to do? Shout 'Stop! Or I'll ... say Stop! again!'"
 
We had a FMOTL appearing in our (Criminal) court the other day. He arrived with a claque of friends (one of whom was advising him everytime he answered a question). When he was asked to confirm his identity he spouted the usual twaddle -exactly according to their rules.
However the District Judge before whom he was appearing ( a wily type) told him to be quiet and told the usher to call out the defendant's name again. Only reply is the same formula from the FMOTL. The DJ then says that as the defendant hasn't surrendered to his bail - a warrant will be issued for his arrest. FMOTL and friends protest - DJ orders Court Security to remove him from the court. Outside the courtroom a girl with him intervenes screaming about him being beaten up (not true). She is promptly restrained by a couple of cops hanging around to give evidence in another trial. Another of group thinks its a grand idea to video everything on his mobile phone - a contempt of court which earns him his very own arrest...
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Sounds familiar... Didn't GirlGye get arrested under similar circumstances not long ago?
 
Arthur Asky said:
Haven't had time to do the quote idea so I will have to post in a colour as I would still like to engage with you strange minded folk. So I will post in a less aggresive colour a blue or green.
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screen blledig grn.
It's not the color of your posts but the lack of content.
 
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INRM said:
What's "The Freeman Movement" then?
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A group of people with rather interesting ideas about how the law works. The sometimes refer to themselves as Freemen on the Land (not Lamb - hence the previous teasing).

I would suggest reading the full thread for more details about what they claim about the law and how they attempt to put those ideas into practice.
 
Agatha said:
My eyes are not all that good, I can't read the green type.

Why is it that many of these freeman types seem to be devoid of basic manners and consideration for others who may not be "practically perfect in every way"?
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I'm surprised they even post here since you have to sign teh MA thereby contracting to Randi. Maybe the Amazing owns their houses now?
 
Toke said:
I read a description of the freeman appearing in the Magna Carta, it was a rank designation in feudal society. Somewhere between serf and noble, but not without both rights and obligations to the rest of society.

I guess that is what the modern version is missing, if you live in a society there are costs in terms of freedom and money. The alternative would be living without interaction with other people at all.
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This seems appropriate:

"Oath of a Freeman was a loyalty oath drawn up by the Pilgrims during the early 17th century. A freeman was an established member of a colony who was not under legal restraint. The Oath was a vow to defend the Commonwealth and not to conspire to overthrow the government.

It survives only in a handwritten copy from 1634 and in a later printed version from 1647. Stephen Daye made a broadside printing of the document in 1639, but it is now lost.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_a_Freeman
 
Pikachu said:
We had a FMOTL appearing in our (Criminal) court the other day. He arrived with a claque of friends (one of whom was advising him everytime he answered a question). When he was asked to confirm his identity he spouted the usual twaddle -exactly according to their rules.
However the District Judge before whom he was appearing ( a wily type) told him to be quiet and told the usher to call out the defendant's name again. Only reply is the same formula from the FMOTL. The DJ then says that as the defendant hasn't surrendered to his bail - a warrant will be issued for his arrest. FMOTL and friends protest - DJ orders Court Security to remove him from the court. Outside the courtroom a girl with him intervenes screaming about him being beaten up (not true). She is promptly restrained by a couple of cops hanging around to give evidence in another trial. Another of group thinks its a grand idea to video everything on his mobile phone - a contempt of court which earns him his very own arrest...
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Ah yes, nothing like bearding the lion in it's own den only to mistake the razor for ror a rope.
 
A colleague told me about another Freeman appearing before Christmas who standing at the door of the courtroom demanded to know where the bar was... Blank stares from everyone except the Judge (a man with a keen sense of humour) who simply pointed to a random spot on the floor and said "There". The Freeman carefully positioned himself just behind that spot...
 
Pikachu said:
A colleague told me about another Freeman appearing before Christmas who standing at the door of the courtroom demanded to know where the bar was... Blank stares from everyone except the Judge (a man with a keen sense of humour) who simply pointed to a random spot on the floor and said "There". The Freeman carefully positioned himself just behind that spot...
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You can spot them a clue but they never get it.
 
Pikachu said:
We had a FMOTL appearing in our (Criminal) court the other day. He arrived with a claque of friends (one of whom was advising him everytime he answered a question). When he was asked to confirm his identity he spouted the usual twaddle -exactly according to their rules.
However the District Judge before whom he was appearing ( a wily type) told him to be quiet and told the usher to call out the defendant's name again. Only reply is the same formula from the FMOTL. The DJ then says that as the defendant hasn't surrendered to his bail - a warrant will be issued for his arrest. FMOTL and friends protest - DJ orders Court Security to remove him from the court. Outside the courtroom a girl with him intervenes screaming about him being beaten up (not true). She is promptly restrained by a couple of cops hanging around to give evidence in another trial. Another of group thinks its a grand idea to video everything on his mobile phone - a contempt of court which earns him his very own arrest...
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Now, as rational thinking people we can all see that in the above example, FMOTL failed miserably. But they will show up on the DI forum claiming a "victory" somehow. There are so many posts like that..even something as simple as getting a case date moved is now a FMOTL "victory."

They are getting desperate.
 
Pikachu said:
A colleague told me about another Freeman appearing before Christmas who standing at the door of the courtroom demanded to know where the bar was... Blank stares from everyone except the Judge (a man with a keen sense of humour) who simply pointed to a random spot on the floor and said "There". The Freeman carefully positioned himself just behind that spot...
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Ah yes this is very important! The bar signals admiralty court, so Freemen must stay behind it to be free of our laws. Courts are constantly engage in tricky methods to try to rick our innocent Freemen to get them to step beyond the bar, thus they are on the admiralty ship and have contracted!!
 
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