The Electric Revolution

[Dabop]

A friend who just retired to Orkney has such a system. As business resilience had been his work, he knew exactly what he wanted and was able to get the installer to do more than offer a single isolated socket which could stay live. Instead he has a changeover breaker which isolates their house from the mains and enables their inverter to run with no mains to synch to.

Isolation is the big problem of course. If your inverter ran in a power cut, for one thing it would be trying to power the whole district and for another when the mains came back on the two systems wouldn't be in phase and sparks would fly.

That's why hybrid inverters have inbuilt changeover switches in them- they are designed specifically for the job of being both a gridtie inverter AND safely powering the household loads during a blackout....

This is my own 12kw hybrid inverter (thats running this computer right now lol) being used in its 'offgrid' mode...

It doesn't need an external ATS, as it has one built in from the factory... (ATS is Automatic Transfer Switch)


It has the 'AC input'- that goes to the grid connection....
AC Output is connected to the household fusebox/consumer unit feed point and its loads via the consumer unit...

Like many, mine can be programmed in multiple ways- as an 'emergency backup'- where the AC in is just connected to the AC Out terminals usually, and the PV inputs (6kw of panels) feed back to the grid ie gridtie inverter mode... if the grid fails, then it turns on the inverter and switches the house loads to that, running off its battery bank, which is now being charged by the panels.... at this point the AC in is totally disconnected from the inverters internal supply...no actual connection and no 230v appears on the AC Input

For areas with 'dirty power' ie lots of spikes and surges, it can be run in a similar way, but with the inverter running the loads 24/7, and instead, the inverters internal battery charger circuit is supplying the inverter with power, and keeping the battery 'topped up'- because the inverter is always powering the loads, this is its UPS mode (Uninterruptible Power Supply)- again if the grid fails- it relies on the panels and battery bank to feed the loads... and the grid input is again totally disconnected in this mode whenever it fails- no power can ever go back out the mains input if there is no power there, but it acts like a conventional gridtie and exports excess power once the battery bank is fully charged...

Like many- I'm running a hybrid purely offgrid- its a good way of allowing the battery bank to be charged via a generator if needed without buying a separate battery charger- the panels charge the battery bank up as normal, but if you hook a generator up to the mains input terminals- whenever you start the genny- you can either run the house directly from the genny , or by putting it in UPS mode, you can use a 'dirty generator' to feed the house loads without worrying that you will spike them- the genny simply runs the internal battery charger, and charges the battery bank while running the inverter, which is running the actual house loads...

 

[Rolfe]

My system has 18 panels, and I've seen 8.5 kw being generated on a cold bright day. (Not today, we've been stuck under something called an anticyclonic gloom since Tuesday and there's not a lot left to export after charging the battery and running the house.) On a warm day in full sun they'll struggle to get 7 kw, and I would imagine in the warm south they'd get a fair bit less even than that.

Although my export is capped at 5 kw and the system will clip above that, I have figured out how to stop that, and instead put what would otherwise be clipped into the home battery. I think the most I've seen generated in a day is about 47 kwh, and in May I topped 1 Mwh for the month. (The worst was on New Year's Day this year, when I got a massive 340 watt-hours!)

According to the running total on the web page I've generated 10.15 Mwh since the system was installed 18 months ago (I wasn't harvesting the clipping last year because I didn't have the export tariff in the summer) and have imported 9.6 kwh in the same time. That sounds as if I should be able to live off my solar entirely IF I could store the summer harvest to use over the winter, which obviously isn't possible as yet. However that's misleading. A fair chunk of what I have imported was exported back in the evening. Import overnight for 7p/unit, then during the day the battery is there if it's needed, or alternatively if it's sunny anything I don't use is exported, then in the evening I empty the battery again into the grid to be paid 15p/unit for that. So I'm making 8p/unit profit on the turnover. (OK, less losses.) As a result I'm importing a fair bit more than I use. So if in a utopian situation I could indeed store my summer harvest for the winter I'd probably be well over my needs. (Bear in mind that I don't use electricity for heating, though.)

However, the way the Octopus account works, I actually do better than that. During the seven "light" months, that's March to September, I build up credit in my account by exporting power, and then that's there to use during the five "dark" months when I use more than I produce. In fact I make a profit, and in the first full year of operation I was £350 ahead of the game. And that's after powering the house and all my local car journeys. I just have a £1 per month direct debit to keep the account open.

What tends to happen to that profit is that I have an Electroverse card I use on public chargers if I go on a long journey, or out car camping. It gets me a 7% discount, which is worth having, and the cost is simply billed to my normal electricity account. So really, the system is fully running the car even for road trips, as long as I don't go mad.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Ch 18 Page 103: Sustainable Energy - without the hot air | David MacKay

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Technically the electric revolution happened many decades ago. Electrical energy is arguably the highest grade of energy we have, which is why we accept the losses associated with converting other forms of energy into electrical energy.

The right mix of sustainable energy sources for a country depends on what natural resources it has and how harsh the environment is.

To make an energy system resilient requires that a diverse range of energy sources and storage technologies are used and they are connected together.

 

[Norman Alexander]

My system has 18 panels, and I've seen 8.5 kw being generated on a cold bright day. (Not today, we've been stuck under something called an anticyclonic gloom since Tuesday and there's not a lot left to export after charging the battery and running the house.) On a warm day in full sun they'll struggle to get 7 kw, and I would imagine in the warm south they'd get a fair bit less even than that.

Although my export is capped at 5 kw and the system will clip above that, I have figured out how to stop that, and instead put what would otherwise be clipped into the home battery. I think the most I've seen generated in a day is about 47 kwh, and in May I topped 1 Mwh for the month. (The worst was on New Year's Day this year, when I got a massive 340 watt-hours!)

According to the running total on the web page I've generated 10.15 Mwh since the system was installed 18 months ago (I wasn't harvesting the clipping last year because I didn't have the export tariff in the summer) and have imported 9.6 kwh in the same time. That sounds as if I should be able to live off my solar entirely IF I could store the summer harvest to use over the winter, which obviously isn't possible as yet. However that's misleading. A fair chunk of what I have imported was exported back in the evening. Import overnight for 7p/unit, then during the day the battery is there if it's needed, or alternatively if it's sunny anything I don't use is exported, then in the evening I empty the battery again into the grid to be paid 15p/unit for that. So I'm making 8p/unit profit on the turnover. (OK, less losses.) As a result I'm importing a fair bit more than I use. So if in a utopian situation I could indeed store my summer harvest for the winter I'd probably be well over my needs. (Bear in mind that I don't use electricity for heating, though.)

However, the way the Octopus account works, I actually do better than that. During the seven "light" months, that's March to September, I build up credit in my account by exporting power, and then that's there to use during the five "dark" months when I use more than I produce. In fact I make a profit, and in the first full year of operation I was £350 ahead of the game. And that's after powering the house and all my local car journeys. I just have a £1 per month direct debit to keep the account open.

What tends to happen to that profit is that I have an Electroverse card I use on public chargers if I go on a long journey, or out car camping. It gets me a 7% discount, which is worth having, and the cost is simply billed to my normal electricity account. So really, the system is fully running the car even for road trips, as long as I don't go mad.

Yep, very similar to ours, with one exception: the priority of power distribution. For ours, the PV power goes first to whatever household load is needed. Second, excess from that goes into our battery. Third, only when the battery is full is the excess fed to the grid. When the household load exceeds the PV, the difference comes from the battery. When the battery runs flat, only then does the difference come from the grid.

BTW, a VPP - Virtual Power Plant - is a sort of community sharing of house batteries under a single management. Each household participant agrees to feed a fraction of their battery power to the grid as needed. Payment for any power taken is "attractive". In return, your battery output is managed by a central VPP admin, not your home controllers. In a changing demand situation such as grid blackouts, that fraction from each household can be increased by the admin to cover the load.

https://www.agl.com.au/residential/solar-and-batteries/virtual-power-plant

 

[Rolfe]

That's exactly how mine works, I must have explained it poorly. However, I can force the system to export rather than fill the battery if I want to. Sometimes (on very sunny days) this is advantageous. I don't know anything about the VPP thing though.

 

[Dabop]

My system has 18 panels,

I wish people would stop this 'number of panels' guff- it literally means less than 'my panels have black anodising on the frames' in terms of performance..... (new panels can be as little as 100w, to over 800w-nearly a full magnitude of difference!!!)- and yes, there are times when 100w panels make more sense to install- not many, but there are cases... (the triangular ones are very handy for those that want to utilise every square centimetre of roof space, and they come down as low as 100w)

Although my export is capped at 5 kw and the system will clip above that, I have figured out how to stop that, and instead put what would otherwise be clipped into the home battery.

People need to be VERY careful fiddling with the settings- I hope you didn't actually remove the 5kw export cap- or they WILL come down on you like a tonne of bricks when they notice...... The export limit is fixed by the electrical authority (the DNO in the UK, the CEC here) and is NOT negotiable- exporting more than your allowed limit can lead to disconnection from the mains until rectified!!!!- If yours is a hybrid inverter system, the internal usage can be whatever you want up to the inverter wattage limit (this is a hardware limit- go past it and 'magic smoke comes out'- all electronics really runs on smoke, lol...) the export limit is programmable- but should be set (usually by the installer, and many inverters dont allow customer access to it without the 'installation program') to the limit set by your regulator for your installation.... this limit can be regulatory in some cases (here a 3kw or 5kw export limit is a 'rubber stamp' installation and automatically approved, while anything higher requires a check of the surrounding infrastructure and other solar installations to ensure that things like the transformers aren't overloaded with possible destruction of them.....
A further limit you don't want to be fiddling with is the battery charge limit- also a 'bad thing' to be fiddling with- battery banks have specific charge rate limits, below that current limit is safe, above it- well thats how lithium fires happen- thermal runaway by excess charge current is one of the worst offenders (especially in cheap unbranded NCM cells found in elcheapo imports)- but even quality cells can have it happen if mistreated- and overcharging is definitely in that category!!!!!
(for example, my cells here have a data sheet and one of the listed things is the maximum charge rate- for MY particular cells, its 3CA where the CA is the cells capacity in AH... (mine are 400Ah, but the manufacturer makes them in a huge range from as little as 40Ah up to 10000Ah!!!) so if the charge rate is 3CA, then the maximum charge rate on my cells is 3x400Ah= 1200A maximum- on my 48v nominal battery bank (20kWh), thats a wattage limit of 58kW of panels lol.... any more than that- and I could risk having one of those 'fun time' lithium fires.....


I'm wondering just what 'limit' you were playing with?????

 

[acbytesla]

There are so many ways to do solar. I had never seen triangle panels before.

 

[Dabop]

They have been around for a while...
(I been doing solar installs since the 1980's, and got my gridtie design/install certification back in 2004- so I get to see a lot of stuff through industry trade shows/magazines etc that the general public wouldn't)

Another pet peeve- people calling them '12v panels' or '24v' panels- you will NEVER find that listed on an actual specifications sheet- it will have a lot of other stuff (including Voc and Vmp) but never '12v panel' lol- this becomes important when designing a solar system- you have a PVmax rating on the input of the inverter/charge controller- while can be as little as 50v , up to 500v or more... When doing the series strings calcs, you need to know the Voc rating of the panels- and they add together in a series string- for most people using all the Vocs added together should be at MOST 80% of the PVmax rating.....
(failure to follow this will again lead to 'magic smoke comes out')
Those in subzero temps should allow even more (there is actually a formula for figuring out the exact voltages etc- but 80% for those who dont get below 0C days and 30% for those who do is 'close enough' for most...

Many people don't know about the different voltages you can find in panels-in practice most panels will be 'somewhere' between about 18v Voc and 100v Voc- quite a bit of difference!!!- yet people dont even LOOK at anything but the wattage.....

For 'offgrid' stuff- couple a 90v Voc panel with a cheap PWM charge controller, and they can be (unpleasantly) surprised at the performance (or lack thereof)
Say (like many) you buy a '160w panel' to charge a 12v battery.... and because its cheap- you use a PWM charge controller (boo hiss) rather than a MPPT one (yay) (NEVER, ever, ever just 'hook a panel to a battery btw)

Here's two 160w panels...

On a cheap PWM charge controller- the panel on the right will put out as close to the 160w that the (rather inefficient) PWM charge controller will allow- in practice it will be the charge voltage (13.8v for a 12v nominal battery) times the Imp current rating... so 13.8v x 8.6A = 118.7w- from a 160w panel...
Pretty poor right- well blame that cheap (and nasty) PWM charge controller- it can only ever go to the max current of the panel...

But if you think thats bad- your buyer didn't look and just bought the first '160w panel' that came up- and they had the misfortune to get the SoloPower one...
Coupled with a cheap PWM, the performance is going to be HORRIBLE- as the panel is capped at 4.4A (and thats into a direct short circuit) and again the charge controller will cap the voltage at 13.8v on a 12v nominal battery...
13.8v x 4.4A = 60.72W...

And remember thats the absolute max- in practice, it would be less than that...
less than 60W from a 160w panel!!!

Buy a MPPT charge controller- and they will usually get within 1% of the rated output of the panel- so at least 155w from either panel

Solar is a lot more complicated than many think.....
(which is why some peoples systems are so bad- they didn't check the specs, and Mr Murphy made sure they got a 'bad mix' system- with the expected results....)

Some other panels just to show the variations in voltage- and as you can see, the wattage is certainly no guide to their voltage...


MPPT charge controllers usually have the PVmax rating on their specs label (two of mine- its a 150v PVmax on the left, but only a 50v one on the right)


Here's the north facing array (only 3 of those are hooked up to the charge controller- the fourth one runs a UV sterilising bulb in the water tank behind it)- this was when I was still on the 12v battery bank for the caravan- you can see that the three panels in series (the specs label for mine is the 250w panel bottom left up above lol) are running at 75.9v, while the battery bank is taking 36.2A at 13.8v.... because the panels are series- the maximum amperage they can ever put out is only 9.37A, yet the charge controller is putting out 36.2A from them... such is the magic of MPPT...

 

[Rolfe]

I wish people would stop this 'number of panels' guff- it literally means less than 'my panels have black anodising on the frames' in terms of performance..... (new panels can be as little as 100w, to over 800w-nearly a full magnitude of difference!!!)- and yes, there are times when 100w panels make more sense to install- not many, but there are cases... (the triangular ones are very handy for those that want to utilise every square centimetre of roof space, and they come down as low as 100w)
View attachment 64880

People need to be VERY careful fiddling with the settings- I hope you didn't actually remove the 5kw export cap- or they WILL come down on you like a tonne of bricks when they notice...... The export limit is fixed by the electrical authority (the DNO in the UK, the CEC here) and is NOT negotiable- exporting more than your allowed limit can lead to disconnection from the mains until rectified!!!!- If yours is a hybrid inverter system, the internal usage can be whatever you want up to the inverter wattage limit (this is a hardware limit- go past it and 'magic smoke comes out'- all electronics really runs on smoke, lol...) the export limit is programmable- but should be set (usually by the installer, and many inverters dont allow customer access to it without the 'installation program') to the limit set by your regulator for your installation.... this limit can be regulatory in some cases (here a 3kw or 5kw export limit is a 'rubber stamp' installation and automatically approved, while anything higher requires a check of the surrounding infrastructure and other solar installations to ensure that things like the transformers aren't overloaded with possible destruction of them.....
A further limit you don't want to be fiddling with is the battery charge limit- also a 'bad thing' to be fiddling with- battery banks have specific charge rate limits, below that current limit is safe, above it- well thats how lithium fires happen- thermal runaway by excess charge current is one of the worst offenders (especially in cheap unbranded NCM cells found in elcheapo imports)- but even quality cells can have it happen if mistreated- and overcharging is definitely in that category!!!!!
(for example, my cells here have a data sheet and one of the listed things is the maximum charge rate- for MY particular cells, its 3CA where the CA is the cells capacity in AH... (mine are 400Ah, but the manufacturer makes them in a huge range from as little as 40Ah up to 10000Ah!!!) so if the charge rate is 3CA, then the maximum charge rate on my cells is 3x400Ah= 1200A maximum- on my 48v nominal battery bank (20kWh), thats a wattage limit of 58kW of panels lol.... any more than that- and I could risk having one of those 'fun time' lithium fires.....
View attachment 64883
View attachment 64884
I'm wondering just what 'limit' you were playing with?????

Well, if I knew anything more about the panels than that they're black, they're on the roof and there are 18 of them, I'd tell you. I expect it's in the literature I was given somewhere but I have no idea.

And thanks for the lecture, but all I'm doing is exporting some of my home battery early in the morning just as the solar takes over running the house, then holding it there with the inverter set to "export to 100%". This has the effect of preventing the battery from preferentially charging from the solar surplus until the 5 kw export cap is reached. Then, instead of the generation above that limit being wasted, it's diverted to the battery. I can then export it from there later in the evening, after sunset. So I don't lose any generation and the 5 kw export cap is never breached. Nobody is going to come down on me like a ton of bricks, thanks.

 

[Dabop]

Well, if I knew anything more about the panels than that they're black, they're on the roof and there are 18 of them, I'd tell you. I expect it's in the literature I was given somewhere but I have no idea.

And thanks for the lecture, but all I'm doing is exporting some of my home battery early in the morning just as the solar takes over running the house, then holding it there with the inverter set to "export to 100%". This has the effect of preventing the battery from preferentially charging from the solar surplus until the 5 kw export cap is reached. Then, instead of the generation above that limit being wasted, it's diverted to the battery. I can then export it from there later in the evening, after sunset. So I don't lose any generation and the 5 kw export cap is never breached. Nobody is going to come down on me like a ton of bricks, thanks.

So what settings ARE you playing with then???
Because you 'really sound like you know what you are doing'....
(especially since most people do the reverse- they recharge their battery from solar- and only when it is full in the morning they THEN export any excess to the grid....)
The way you are doing it could have you exporting what solar in poor weather you are generating, while leaving your battery flat- and then buying in grid power at night instead of using the 'free' solar power from the panels lol

 

[Rolfe]

I'm not that much of an idiot.

In summer I discharge the battery to about 30% in the morning. Just suppose there's no clipping at all that day and evening comes with the battery still at 30%, that's still plenty to run the house until the cheap rate starts at 11.30. But that's very unlikely to happen, first because I won't discharge the battery if the weather forecast is for cloud all day, and second because, if an expected sunny day doesn't materialise, I can simply turn off export mode and let the battery pick up a bit of late afternoon sunlight rather than exporting it.

I've been doing this since early April this year and have not run out of battery once. I harvested an additional 100 kwh in May that would otherwise have been lost to clipping. I do keep an eye on what it's doing, but if I forget occasionally the worst that can happen is a penny or two in peak rate electricity.

This can happen two ways. I need to remember to turn the export settings off if the sun is behind a cloud when I want to use something heavy-duty like the kettle during the day, or a bit of mains power will be drawn as the house doesn't have access to the battery. Similarly, if the light level drops really low, I should turn off export to prevent the house load drawing a bit of mains power. But it's fractions of a penny if it happens.

It would be an ideal setup for someone who was out of the house working all day, just set it in the evening if the forecast is sunny, then have the export set to end at the time you come home and start cooking. As I'm at home most days I keep half an eye on it, but it's pretty foolproof.

 

[Darat]

Sadly, at least in the UK the revolution is for the already wealthy. Of course people will say the early adopters (but they were people 20 years ago) have brought the prices down but it's still yet another way that wealth inequality increases.

Renters are pretty much locked out of this revolution, I've heard people say that landlords will convert their properties because it will make them more attractive, as if. Around here people will rent whatever there is, there is no incentive for landlords to even invest in the basics, and this is an incredibly affluent area and we are talking about private landlords and the people renting will be professionals earning good money paying out exorbitant rents.

Then there is the matter of our housing stock, in many places of the UK where owning your own home is still possible for "working class" people, you will have very little roof space for solar, the width of such houses.are usually about 4 metres. Often these will be back to back housing as well so heat pumps aren't workable.

Lots of my friends think the revolution is here because they have been able to cut their energy bills, and charge their cars for "free" and these are people who could well afford their bills prior to them joining the revolution. I'm all for the revolution, when it becomes a revolution for all, or at least a huge majority. In my country the government should see it as a necessary and essential infrastructure upgrade for all our housing and act accordingly, offering a grant for those getting heat pumps for example is again something for the better off and doesn't really cut it. As ever being poor or these days just being better off is much more expensive than being well off.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

I'm not that much of an idiot.

In summer I discharge the battery to about 30% in the morning. Just suppose there's no clipping at all that day and evening comes with the battery still at 30%, that's still plenty to run the house until the cheap rate starts at 11.30. But that's very unlikely to happen, first because I won't discharge the battery if the weather forecast is for cloud all day, and second because, if an expected sunny day doesn't materialise, I can simply turn off export mode and let the battery pick up a bit of late afternoon sunlight rather than exporting it.

I've been doing this since early April this year and have not run out of battery once. I harvested an additional 100 kwh in May that would otherwise have been lost to clipping. I do keep an eye on what it's doing, but if I forget occasionally the worst that can happen is a penny or two in peak rate electricity.

This can happen two ways. I need to remember to turn the export settings off if the sun is behind a cloud when I want to use something heavy-duty like the kettle during the day, or a bit of mains power will be drawn as the house doesn't have access to the battery. Similarly, if the light level drops really low, I should turn off export to prevent the house load drawing a bit of mains power. But it's fractions of a penny if it happens.

It would be an ideal setup for someone who was out of the house working all day, just set it in the evening if the forecast is sunny, then have the export set to end at the time you come home and start cooking. As I'm at home most days I keep half an eye on it, but it's pretty foolproof.

Two thoughts just popped in my head:

1) If I had not met you in real life I would not believe you are female.
2) Some might use this as evidence for the stereotype of Scottish people being tight.

 

[Rolfe]

Two thoughts just popped in my head:

1) If I had not met you in real life I would not believe you are female.
2) Some might use this as evidence for the stereotype of Scottish people being tight.

It's true that the actual returns are modest in the context of the entire system. May was unusually sunny and the 100 kwh gain from this game was less than 10% of the month's total harvest of over 1 Mw. But it's quite fun to do it.

 

[Rolfe]

Sadly, at least in the UK the revolution is for the already wealthy. Of course people will say the early adopters (but they were people 20 years ago) have brought the prices down but it's still yet another way that wealth inequality increases.

Renters are pretty much locked out of this revolution, I've heard people say that landlords will convert their properties because it will make them more attractive, as if. Around here people will rent whatever there is, there is no incentive for landlords to even invest in the basics, and this is an incredibly affluent area and we are talking about private landlords and the people renting will be professionals earning good money paying out exorbitant rents.

Then there is the matter of our housing stock, in many places of the UK where owning your own home is still possible for "working class" people, you will have very little roof space for solar, the width of such houses.are usually about 4 metres. Often these will be back to back housing as well so heat pumps aren't workable.

Lots of my friends think the revolution is here because they have been able to cut their energy bills, and charge their cars for "free" and these are people who could well afford their bills prior to them joining the revolution. I'm all for the revolution, when it becomes a revolution for all, or at least a huge majority. In my country the government should see it as a necessary and essential infrastructure upgrade for all our housing and act accordingly, offering a grant for those getting heat pumps for example is again something for the better off and doesn't really cut it. As ever being poor or these days just being better off is much more expensive than being well off.

In one sense you are entirely right, of course. But what's the alternative? This is the only way the technology is going to achieve penetration. If nothing is installed and no EVs are bought until everything is within the means of the poorest, it will never happen.

I imagine it was similar when mains electricity itself first became available. The well-to-do got all the benefits first. But eventually it happened for almost everyone. If nobody had installed it until the most remote black house on Vatersay was able to be connected, we'd all still be reading by whale oil lamps.

The trickle-down is starting to be seen already in older used EVs, which are a steal of a bargain and require very little maintenance. If you can run a cable out of a window from a suitable socket you're laughing, and the ability to do this is commoner than many people realise. Even if you're stuck with public charging it can still make sense and be cheaper than running a money pit of an old diesel banger.

We're in a time of transformation, and bitching about how it isn't fair and it's all evil and tainted because the benefits aren't yet available to everyone is pointless.

 

[Darat]

In one sense you are entirely right, of course. But what's the alternative? This is the only way the technology is going to achieve penetration. If nothing is installed and no EVs are bought
until everything is within the means of the poorest, it will never happen.
....snip...

What about any of it?

There are a lot more people not-well-off than there are well-off, if you want adoption to skyrocket, fund the poor and not-well-off to get the technology. The government as part of a countrywide infrastructure project should be installing solar on everyone's roof, yes including private homes, should be funding electric cars for the poor and so on.

All that is happening now is that the poor are paying more for their heating, their transportation and so on.

 

[Rolfe]

Again, I agree with you. But that's a failing of government, not a problem with the technology itself. Blame the government, who are in the pockets of the big oil companies. Not the technology, or the people who are in a position to take advantage of it.

There are huge vested interests who don't want any of this to happen, and they have governments and media outlets in their pockets and a huge army of useful idiots prepared to spout nonsense about EVs online. They absolutely won't countenance the measures you advocate.

Even when incentives have been offered they've mainly been available to people who were fairly well off in the first place and have been withdrawn before anyone less well off could access them.

It's pernicious, but lay the blame where it's deserved, rather than bellyaching about the technology itself and criticising the people who have been able to take advantage of it.

 

[acbytesla]

Sadly, at least in the UK the revolution is for the already wealthy. Of course people will say the early adopters (but they were people 20 years ago) have brought the prices down but it's still yet another way that wealth inequality increases.

Renters are pretty much locked out of this revolution, I've heard people say that landlords will convert their properties because it will make them more attractive, as if. Around here people will rent whatever there is, there is no incentive for landlords to even invest in the basics, and this is an incredibly affluent area and we are talking about private landlords and the people renting will be professionals earning good money paying out exorbitant rents.

Then there is the matter of our housing stock, in many places of the UK where owning your own home is still possible for "working class" people, you will have very little roof space for solar, the width of such houses.are usually about 4 metres. Often these will be back to back housing as well so heat pumps aren't workable.

Lots of my friends think the revolution is here because they have been able to cut their energy bills, and charge their cars for "free" and these are people who could well afford their bills prior to them joining the revolution. I'm all for the revolution, when it becomes a revolution for all, or at least a huge majority. In my country the government should see it as a necessary and essential infrastructure upgrade for all our housing and act accordingly, offering a grant for those getting heat pumps for example is again something for the better off and doesn't really cut it. As ever being poor or these days just being better off is much more expensive than being well off.

I understand your argument. And it has merit. But this idea we should halt the revolution "until" it can be a revolution for all is exactly what those that are truly wealthy and powerful want you to think.

This is chicken and egg stuff. We electrified America by first running power to the rich and powerful. Specifically the richest man in the world.JP Morgan's home was the first mansion electrified in 1882. Lots of farms didn't have power until the 1950s. And they didn't get power without government assistance.

 

[Rolfe]

I understand your argument. And it has merit. But this idea we should halt the revolution "until" it can be a revolution for all is exactly what those that are truly wealthy and powerful want you to think.

This is chicken and egg stuff. We electrified America by first running power to the rich and powerful. Specifically the richest man in the world.JP Morgan's home was the first mansion electrified in 1882. Lots of farms didn't have power until the 1950s. And they didn't get power without government assistance.

Exactly. Well put.