The DeSantis gambit

[Ziggurat]

Is there anything the Lincoln Project stands for that's unrepresentative of the Republican party historically?

I think Trump is quite the RINO himself!

The Lincoln Project doesn't stand for anything except opposition to Trump. Go to their web page, try to find anything about anything other than opposition to Trump. Their stance on taxes? Abortion? Gun rights? Welfare reform? Health care? Education? The economy? Foreign relations? Nope. It's just Trump. He is their sole reason for existence.

Well, that and sexually harassing minors.

 

[RolandRat]

even though Ron might be the best chance that the country has of avoiding another four years of Trump.

Avoiding Trump by putting in DeSantis doesn't seem like an upgrade to me.

 

[a_unique_person]

There was no reasonable doubt that they were real Nazis.

So this whole Lincoln Project thing... just a diversion.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

The Lincoln Project doesn't stand for anything except opposition to Trump. Go to their web page, try to find anything about anything other than opposition to Trump. Their stance on taxes? Abortion? Gun rights? Welfare reform? Health care? Education? The economy? Foreign relations? Nope. It's just Trump. He is their sole reason for existence.

Well, that and sexually harassing minors.

And opposition to Trump makes you automatically less Republican?

If that is your argument, you are putting Trump as the quintessential Republican.
Is that really what you want?

 

[angrysoba]

The Lincoln Project doesn't stand for anything except opposition to Trump. Go to their web page, try to find anything about anything other than opposition to Trump. Their stance on taxes? Abortion? Gun rights? Welfare reform? Health care? Education? The economy? Foreign relations? Nope. It's just Trump. He is their sole reason for existence.
Well, that and sexually harassing minors.

But if that were true, it would make no sense for them, as you claim, to pretend to be DeSantis supporters while dressing up as Nazis, would it?

After all, surely they would want to promote DeSantis to get rid of Trump.

Meanwhile, as you say, you don't want DeSantis condemning these Nazi flag wavers. And yet surely, DeSantis should, right?

Either they are real Nazis, in which case he should obviously condemn them. Or they are provocateurs trying to make him look bad, in which case he should condemn them.

Perhaps the only reason he might not condemn them is if he wants to get every vote he can.

So the stories are not really making any sense. You claim an obsessively anti-Trump group is trying to smear Trump's biggest rival with the Nazi brush, and that DeSantis has no interest in condemning them.

 

[Ziggurat]

But if that were true, it would make no sense for them, as you claim, to pretend to be DeSantis supporters while dressing up as Nazis, would it?

God damn, but that's a clueless question.

The point was never that the Lincoln Project specifically was behind this, and I never claimed or even implied they were. In fact, I specifically pointed out that Trump supporters could even be behind it. The point was that a stunt by somebody opposed to DeSantis could easily have done this. The Lincoln Project was just an example of this sort of smear in the past. Why on earth would you think they're the only ones capable and willing to do something similar now? I certainly don't.

Meanwhile, as you say, you don't want DeSantis condemning these Nazi flag wavers.

I didn't say that either. Rather, I don't care that he hasn't addressed this specific protest, especially if the complaint is that he hasn't done it according to whatever timeline you want imposed.

Either they are real Nazis, in which case he should obviously condemn them.

That's not actually obvious to me. Sometimes it's better to simply ignore trolls. Even condemnation can be a form of feeding. It won't bother me if he does condemn them, because Nazis suck.

 

[W.D.Clinger]

I don't see a lot of (non-liberal) people around here saying that Trump truly represents the Republican Party, but maybe you have a cite for that?

A cite? How about him being the winner of the GOP primaries for presidential candidate in 2016? Presidential candidate for GOP in 2020, and front-runner for presidential candidate of the GOP in 2024?

Plus the fact that any establishment Republicans who opposed him in the primaries soon ended up back in the fold whenever his impeachments and indictments were announced. The few opponents of Trump pretty much found themselves kicked out of office or primaried by the GOP.

So yeah, Trump is the walking embodiment of the GOP right now.

Brainster might well think the soi-disant Republicans who nominated Trump in 2016, elected him later that year, voted for him again in 2020, and have been telling pollsters they want him to be their nominee again in 2024 are all just RINOs.

That would make about as much sense as the rest of Brainster's musings.

 

[Brainster]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...flags-desantis-sign-disney-world/70310731007/


So, real Nazis?

Perhaps you could point out the part in that article that tells you these are real Nazis? I am sure you have a reason for that "So".

 

[lobosrul5]

Perhaps you could point out the part in that article that tells you these are real Nazis? I am sure you have a reason for that "So".

If it makes you happy, I guess its technically more accurate to call them wannabe Nazis than real Nazis. Since, I doubt any of them were members of the actual German Nazi party. Is that better?

 

[Norman Alexander]

It's pretty simple. They be DeSantis supporters. They are dumb as ****, so don't assign them any more deep intellectuality than they really haven't got.

They are protesting AGAINST Disney, outside whose gates they stand. They are trying to discourage people going into Disneyworld by waving Nazi flags, as though that would deter "the libz" and "the woke" from entering. Hence why they also have DeSantis support flags.

They seem to think their flags are magic charms. They also fail to see their dreadful juxtaposition. Like I said, not the sharpest knives.

 

[Venom]

The Lincoln Project doesn't stand for anything except opposition to Trump. Go to their web page, try to find anything about anything other than opposition to Trump. Their stance on taxes? Abortion? Gun rights? Welfare reform? Health care? Education? The economy? Foreign relations? Nope. It's just Trump. He is their sole reason for existence.

No surprise, however, after getting a bunch of donations from liberals in the last few elections (and with the looming possibility that Donald Trump might not be in the 2024 race), they have branched out into opposing DeSantis, even though Ron might be the best chance that the country has of avoiding another four years of Trump. Why? Because it gives them a devil in the general election no matter what. There is always the risk that the Republicans won't cooperate and will nominate someone other than Trump, and they won't get that juicy cash from big liberal donors.

Mission creep of course affects all these PACs--Move On was formed to oppose Clinton's impeachment 25 years ago, and yet it still exists and has power within the Democrats.

Funny how this reasoning winds back to RINO = anti-Trump, basically how Trump has appropriated the term today.

I don't think there is any contradiction between opposing Trump (and DeSantis, who is doing much of MAGA's bidding) and being a Republican if it's a sincere mission to destroy the man who they believe hijacked their party.

I do think public image and rhetoric matter. Neo-con, neo-lib Republicans of the fairly recent past, even if they weren't that far policy-wise from a DeSantis, still observed standards of political etiquette. Imagine if John McCain went along with every disgusting thing his fans said about Obama during the campaign.

 

[a_unique_person]

The Lincoln Project doesn't stand for anything except opposition to Trump. Go to their web page, try to find anything about anything other than opposition to Trump. Their stance on taxes? Abortion? Gun rights? Welfare reform? Health care? Education? The economy? Foreign relations? Nope. It's just Trump. He is their sole reason for existence.



Well, that and sexually harassing minors.

Trump doesn't stand for anything other than himself.

 

[a_unique_person]

It's pretty simple. They be DeSantis supporters. They are dumb as ****, so don't assign them any more deep intellectuality than they really haven't got.

They are protesting AGAINST Disney, outside whose gates they stand. They are trying to discourage people going into Disneyworld by waving Nazi flags, as though that would deter "the libz" and "the woke" from entering. Hence why they also have DeSantis support flags.

They seem to think their flags are magic charms. They also fail to see their dreadful juxtaposition. Like I said, not the sharpest knives.

Thanks. So not Lincoln project.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Looks like "Lincoln Project"as replaced "Hillary" as the primary boogie man who is responsible for all the GOP ills.

 

[Shadowdweller]

A lot of YouTubers and Patreon people are grifters, I'm not sure your point.

Are you claiming that the base Youtube/Patreon payment model is grift, kid?

I don't think anyone is accusing these people of engaging in fraud per se, it's more pointing out that they are cashing in on anti-MAGA sentiment while not delivering a product of any value.

That is literally what Ziggurat asserted upthread. You DO actually understand that grift and fraud are synonyms, right? Furthermore, value is entirely subjective. The fact the Lincoln Project has raised considerable amounts of money seems to suggest that a rather sizeable number of people (or at least a few very wealthy ones) disagree with your claim that they produce nothing of value.

Rubes who still believe in such fantasies like centrism or cooperation with "sensible" conservatives are ripe targets for being parted with their money in this era of extreme unease with MAGA politics. Grifters can smell the money in the air and come running.

Nobody beside yourself said anything here about centrism or cooperation with conservatives. And far worse and more destructive are imbeciles who can't wrap their head around the concept of other people having different but distinct senses of morality.

 

[Ziggurat]

Funny how this reasoning winds back to RINO = anti-Trump

Well, no. The problem isn't that they oppose Trump. It's that opposing Trump is the only thing they do. Do you get the distinction? Seriously, would you consider someone who only opposed Biden to be a Democrat in anything other than name? They aren't advocating for Democrat positions, they aren't promoting any other Democrat politicians, they aren't opposing any Republican politicians, all they do is oppose Biden. How does that make them a Democrat?

I don't think there is any contradiction between opposing Trump (and DeSantis, who is doing much of MAGA's bidding) and being a Republican

Not necessarily, sure. But seriously, what does it even mean to be a Republican if that's the only thing you're doing? People keep objecting that being anti-Trump doesn't make them RINO's, but the one thing nobody is putting forth is an argument for what DOES make them Republican. And the reason is because the Lincoln Project does nothing else.

 

[a_unique_person]

Well, no. The problem isn't that they oppose Trump. It's that opposing Trump is the only thing they do. Do you get the distinction? Seriously, would you consider someone who only opposed Biden to be a Democrat in anything other than name? They aren't advocating for Democrat positions, they aren't promoting any other Democrat politicians, they aren't opposing any Republican politicians, all they do is oppose Biden. How does that make them a Democrat?



Not necessarily, sure. But seriously, what does it even mean to be a Republican if that's the only thing you're doing? People keep objecting that being anti-Trump doesn't make them RINO's, but the one thing nobody is putting forth is an argument for what DOES make them Republican. And the reason is because the Lincoln Project does nothing else.

Trump does nothing else but promote himself.

 

[Ziggurat]

I don't think anyone is accusing these people of engaging in fraud per se

That is literally what Ziggurat asserted upthread. You DO actually understand that grift and fraud are synonyms, right?

In the context of political operatives, I do not mean "grift" as literal fraud. I'm saying that they aren't sincere in their professed beliefs, and that the real purpose is simply to obtain donations. Legally, it's not fraud in the sense that they're doing what they claim to be doing (making political ads, etc) when they solicit those donations. So the donors have no legal complaint against them. You can't take them to court for it. But it's dishonest in the sense that their real goal isn't actually to accomplish anything politically but merely to make money.

You should assume that all political action groups are grifters. They may still be worth funding if they happen to be effective at pushing an agenda you want, but never think that they're doing any of it out of the goodness of their hearts.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

In the context of political operatives, I do not mean "grift" as literal fraud. I'm saying that they aren't sincere in their professed beliefs, and that the real purpose is simply to obtain donations. Legally, it's not fraud in the sense that they're doing what they claim to be doing (making political ads, etc) when they solicit those donations. So the donors have no legal complaint against them. You can't take them to court for it. But it's dishonest in the sense that their real goal isn't actually to accomplish anything politically but merely to make money.

You should assume that all political action groups are grifters. They may still be worth funding if they happen to be effective at pushing an agenda you want, but never think that they're doing any of it out of the goodness of their hearts.

I think the general public understands this colloquial use of "grift" when used to describe this kind of pointless fundraising organization. Thumping the dictionary like an annoying pedant and pretending not to understand the common usage is an especially annoying kind of bad faith. Shadowdweller's pedantry is not really worth engaging with, in my opinion.

I would say that these people are grifter exactly because the organization they are running does little than appeal to people's anti-Trump sentiments without accomplishing anything actually useful. It's a mastubatory PR exercise for both the org and the donors, and it keeps these Lincoln project rejects from having to go get a real job. If you wanted to spend money to try to influence politics in this country, giving it to the Lincoln project is just like throwing it in the trash.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

Because the game never ends. There's always another thing to force someone to deny that they are. The burden of proof shouldn't be in that direction. It isn't in that direction for Democrats.

Say, were you ever able to locate the proof you said you have that Obama is a thin-skinned narcissist? Did you try checking between the sofa cushions?