The Death Penalty: Chinese style.

[Toke]

I can't fap to this. Now what?

You are not the only one wondering about the point of the OP.

 

[DrDave]

You are not the only one wondering about the point of the OP.

OP has form for china bashing so that's my conclusion. Especially given the avoidance of answering questions on the reason for the thread.

Daft thing is that many people would have agreed that execution, execution for drug dealing or publicising photos of the women is wrong. However, by not stating the reason for the thread the thread has gone off on a tangent instead.

 

[Toke]

Daft thing is that many people would have agreed that execution, execution for drug dealing or publicising photos of the women is wrong. However, by not stating the reason for the thread the thread has gone off on a tangent instead.

Sure, I have a problem with all 3 of those.
They are just not China-specific problems.

 

[citizenzen]

Daft thing is that many people would have agreed that execution, execution for drug dealing or publicising photos of the women is wrong. However, by not stating the reason for the thread the thread has gone off on a tangent instead.

There are some of us who believe that capital punishment is an inappropriate choice for any reason.

But as you say, the OP has left us without any context with which to place the conversation.

 

[DOC]

OP has form for china bashing so that's my conclusion.

It appears you and some others want any negative things that might be going on in the world's most populous country and a country that will some day be the world's biggest economy to be kept hush-hush. If you and some others don't like to be informed about such things I'm sorry.

 

[Akhenaten]

It appears you and some others want any negative things that might be going on in the the world's most populous country and a country that will some day be the world's biggest economy to be kept hush-hush.

What utter rubbish. Pointing out that you have a propensity for posting any negative news about China and enquiring about your motivation for doing so is nothing like trying to keep that news out of the spotlight.

When are you going to explain your point with this story, by the way?

If you and some others don't like to be informed about such things I'm sorry.

Of course you aren't.

 

[citizenzen]

It appears you and some others want any negative things that might be going on in the the world's most populous country and a country that will some day be the world's biggest economy to be kept hush-hush. If you and some others don't like to be informed about such things I'm sorry.

I don't think anybody has asked for the issue to be kept "hush-hush". If all you were trying to do was keep us abreast of the issue, then ... okay.

In that vein ... just in case anybody was trying to keep this issue under wraps, here's a recipe for wonton soup.

1/2 pound boneless pork loin, coarsely chopped
2 ounces peeled shrimp, finely chopped
1 teaspoon brown sugar
1 tablespoon Chinese rice wine
1 tablespoon light soy sauce
1 teaspoon finely chopped green onion
1 teaspoon chopped fresh ginger root
24 (3.5 inch square) wonton wrappers
3 cups chicken stock
1/8 cup finely chopped green onion

In a large bowl, combine pork, shrimp, sugar, wine, soy sauce, 1 teaspoon chopped green onion and ginger. Blend well, and let stand for 25 to 30 minutes.

Place about one teaspoon of the filling at the center of each wonton skin. Moisten all 4 edges of wonton wrapper with water, then pull the top corner down to the bottom, folding the wrapper over the filling to make a triangle. Press edges firmly to make a seal. Bring left and right corners together above the filling. Overlap the tips of these corners, moisten with water and press together. Continue until all wrappers are used.

FOR SOUP: Bring the chicken stock to a rolling boil. Drop wontons in, and cook for 5 minutes. Garnish with chopped green onion, and serve.​

I think you're right Doc. If others don't like to be informed about such things such as a good wonton soup, then I feel sorry for them too.

 

[Wolfman]

Here, let me try to explain. It might set your mind at ease.

The "evidence" that I'm citing is the number of executions alone. China performs by far the most of any nation: ~ 5,000, compared to the second-place nation, Iran ~ 250. When you factor in that number per 10,000 of the country's population you still come up with China ~ 37, Iran ~ 33. The United States by comparison executed 46 people in 2010, or 1.5 people per 10,000.

Those are just the numbers. Here's where the logic comes in ...

I'm working under the assumption that China does not merely execute thousands of its citizens for having committed no crimes at all. I'm also assuming that China's capital crimes are known to be capital crimes by the people. If these two assumptions are correct, then one must ask why these crimes are still occurring if the people understand that the possible outcome is a bullet in the back of their head.

It would appear to me that having the state blow your brains out and face off is not a sufficient deterrent to at least 5,000 people in 2010. That is why I claimed the evidence does not seem to support China's capital punishment practices are a deterrent. That is why I said that their effectiveness as a deterrent is "questionable".

I apologize that calling something into question puts you in such a bad mood. Normally, I'd think it provides an opportunity to openly explore the matter without having to feel overly frustrated. But as they say, your mileage may vary.

First, my apologies. My responses to you included personal insults and a certain arrogance, behavior which I'm now seeking to correct (see my signature at bottom).

In regards to the rest, the raw number of executions means absolutely nothing, unless put into the context of the size of the overall population. Look at a list of the crimes for which Chinese criminals can be executed; then look at the percentage of people in Canada or the U.S. who are arrested for the very same crimes.

Murder rates are a good example. Rates of premeditated violent murder in China are far lower than in Canada or the U.S.

Think of it this way. Let's say I have two sample populations, one of 100 people, the other of 100,000 people. I tell people in both groups that eating ice cream is not allowed. In the first group, the punishment if they eat ice cream is a slap on the hand; in the second group, the punishment if they eat ice cream is a beating, and three days of solitary confinement.

In the first group, it ends up that 25 people (or 25% of the total population) eat ice cream, and get punished with a slap on the hand. In the second group, it ends up that 2500 people (or 2.5% of the total population) eat ice cream, and get punished.

Now, if I were to use your argument, I'd have to say that because 100 times more people in the second group are punished than in the first group, therefore a beating and solitary punishment is not a deterrent to such behavior. However, a more rational and logical evaluation of the facts reveals that the overall rates of undesirable behavior in the latter group are ten times lower than in the former group. And therefore, even though more people are being punished (as a result of the fact it is a larger population size), the fact is that overall 'crime' rates are reduced, and there is a valid indication that the more severe punishment is a more effective deterrent.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Before we can digest and understand this in full, I have a question: What sort of ice cream?

 

[citizenzen]

First, my apologies. My responses to you included personal insults and a certain arrogance, behavior which I'm now seeking to correct (see my signature at bottom).

I appreciate your apology. It shows character. I can only hope to show as much myself.

But as for signatures ... I've chosen in my preferences not to display them, or avatars. I prefer to judge posts purely on the content written within them, and not on the other cues that could influence my opinion of the post or the person posting.

In regards to the rest, the raw number of executions means absolutely nothing, unless put into the context of the size of the overall population.

Well, that's one reason I included the number of executions per 10,000 in population. China's was 35 to America's 1.5. That helps to put it into context.

But the aspect I'm most interested about is the concept of deterrence. Normal, sane people like you and me are deterred by the possibility of life-altering (or ending) punishment. So on one hand, it's easy to say that the death penalty is a deterrent, because I'd certainly never risk ending my life in such a way.

Yet reality shows that this is more complicated than sane and normal people like your and I might believe, because people regularly act out in ways that invite this punishment. Why would anybody deal drugs if the possible outcome was a bullet to the back of the head? I can't imagine ... yet in China, they do.

That's what led to my fairly flippant reply to your post. Is the death penalty in China a deterrent? Apparently not enough of one to the 5,000 people executed last year. I suspect there's an nearly endless supply of people desperate or deluded enough to believe they won't find themselves on the wrong end of a point-blank brain blender.

My hope is that China (and America ... and others) realize there are better ways to mete out justice.

 

[Wolfman]

Yet reality shows that this is more complicated than sane and normal people like your and I might believe, because people regularly act out in ways that invite this punishment. Why would anybody deal drugs if the possible outcome was a bullet to the back of the head? I can't imagine ... yet in China, they do.

This is one of the reasons I cited premeditated crimes. The rate of premeditated crime in China is significantly lower than in most Western countries; but crimes of passion are, so far as I'm aware, pretty much the same (and possibly even slightly more common). I've seen stats on this in the past, but can't find them at the moment (maybe someone else can?).

That's what led to my fairly flippant reply to your post. Is the death penalty in China a deterrent? Apparently not enough of one to the 5,000 people executed last year. I suspect there's an nearly endless supply of people desperate or deluded enough to believe they won't find themselves on the wrong end of a point-blank brain blender.

Deterrent doesn't mean it stops everyone; it means that fewer people (as a percentage) will do it.

As to why it doesn't stop everyone...that's fairly simple. There are two main reasons. First is desperation. An awful lot of those convicted and executed for drug-related crimes, for example, are people who were forced to do it. There are documented cases, for example, where a family member faces a potentially deadly disease, such as cancer, and the cost of treatment is simply too much for the family to cover (often the case in China's rural areas). They end up borrowing money from local crime syndicates, who in turn force them to engage in illegal activities (prostitution, drug dealing, etc.) in order to repay them. The choices they see in such a situation are A) do nothing, and let their family member die (a certainty); B) borrow the money, and then refuse to engage in illegal activities to repay it, resulting in retaliatory death (a virtual certainty); or C) borrow the money, then do what they ask you to do, and hope you don't get caught. Of the three options, the last is the one with the least likelihood of death. Thus, in these cases, I'd agree that a death penalty is not a deterrent.

Second is the "they won't catch me" mindset...one that has proven to be terribly common among an awful lot of criminals. And generally the more incompetent they are, the more likely they are to believe they can't be caught (since the intelligence necessary to develop a really good plan is generally the same intelligence necessary to recognize how likely you are to be caught). Again, for this group, the death penalty won't be much of a deterrent, because they believe it won't apply to them.

So then how does it act as a deterrent? It is still an effective deterrent for those not included in the above two groups. The university student who considers selling drugs to supplement his income. The husband who considers killing his wife so he can be with his younger lover. The people who consider such crimes (as I'm sure many of us have, at least briefly, in the past), but then weigh the potential consequences as being too severe to take the risk. For this group, a bullet to the back of the head is one hell of a deterrent.

My hope is that China (and America ... and others) realize there are better ways to mete out justice.

My hope is that China (and America...and others) will realize that prevention is far more effective than punishment. In China, providing more accessible healthcare, and focusing on rural economic development, would go a long long way to decreasing the power of crime syndicates, and giving potential victims viable alternatives to crime.

 

[DrDave]

It appears you and some others want any negative things that might be going on in the world's most populous country and a country that will some day be the world's biggest economy to be kept hush-hush. If you and some others don't like to be informed about such things I'm sorry.

I note that you made this post and still avoided the question on the point of the thread. So, this is further evidence that it is just more China-bashing.

And no, I don't think it should be hushed up. I think you should have the honesty to say why you think the story presented in the OP is wrong.

 

[DOC]

And no, I don't think it should be hushed up. I think you should have the honesty to say why you think the story presented in the OP is wrong.

It's kind of like the judge who said I can't define pornography, but I know it when I see it.

I don't see life liberty and the pursuit of happiness in those pictures. I see a quasi-Nazi mentality. And if the killing of Falon Gong members story is true, it is definitely a Nazi state no matter how fancy an Olympics they put on.

You seem to have no problem with alleged drug traffickers, and people reporting on the health of Chinese officials getting the death penalty.

How do you feel about the figure of 5000 being executed in one year in China?

 

[Cleon]

You've found us out, DOC. We're all communists, every single one of us. We looooove the Chinese government. MAO MORE THAN EVER!!

 

[zooterkin]

How do you feel about the figure of 5000 being executed in one year in China?

How do you feel about it, DOC?

 

[citizenzen]

I don't see life liberty and the pursuit of happiness in those pictures.

You expect to see life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness in pictures of condemned people shortly before their executions?

I'd say you're looking in the wrong place.

I could likewise show a series of photos of prisoners in the United States ... the nation that imprisons more of its citizens than any other nation on Earth ... and you'd also have a hard time seeing of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

But can one pursue of life, liberty and happiness in the U.S.A.? Most definitely. And I suspect the same thing could be said for your average Chinese citizen.

 

[Akhenaten]

And no, I don't think it should be hushed up. I think you should have the honesty to say why you think the story presented in the OP is wrong.

It's kind of like the judge who said I can't define pornography, but I know it when I see it.

No, it's nothing like that at all, for two reasons.

• In typical fashion, you've attempted to mine a quote that you believe supports your case when it does not, in fact, do anything of the sort. The quotation you're referring to is, in full, "I know [hard -core pornography] when I see it and the motion picture involved in this case is not that." Similarly there is nothing "wrong" with the pictures in the article linked in the OP.
  
  
• The words above were spoken by Supreme Court Associate Justice Potter Stewart, of whom it was once said "This observation summarizes Stewart's judicial philosophy: particularistic, intuitive, and pragmatic."
  
  That you would dare to compare your own biased and self-serving point of view with that of this erudite and fair-minded man is ludicrous, to say the least.

I don't see life liberty and the pursuit of happiness in those pictures.

Do you see it in the faces of those on death row in your own country?

I see a quasi-Nazi mentality. And if the killing of Falon Gong members story is true, it is definitely a Nazi state no matter how fancy an Olympics they put on.

Your non sequiturs grow ever more bizarre.

You seem to have no problem with alleged drug traffickers, and people reporting on the health of Chinese officials getting the death penalty.

Fortunately for us all, the way things seem to you has nothing at all to do with objective reality. The nonsensical conclusions you draw from the application of faulty logic to your warped perceptions are your cross to bear, and yours alone, as the saying goes.

How do you feel about the figure of 5000 being executed in one year in China?

I feel that they won't appear on a list of repeat offenders.

How do you feel about it?

 

[caniswalensis]

Doc, and any other Americans willing to answer, how do feel about the Chinese executing these women and do you feel the same about the executions that take place in US prisons? This is not a dig at America or Americans; it is a genuine question.

Thanks.

I'm American, so I'll chime in.

On the executions of the chinese women, it seems harsh, but I understand there are culteral differences.

I am generally against the death penalty no matter what the location, because it makes any nistakes permenant. ...and we all know mistakes get made.

 

[Foolmewunz]

You've found us out, DOC. We're all communists, every single one of us. We looooove the Chinese government. MAO MORE THAN EVER!!

It's MAO or Never! (Love that song.)


Yes, you have to admit that DOC cottoned to our evil plan. I was drawn here by the siren call of Communism. Why I've personally covered up more than four thousand lies just this week, alone. And I don't hold a candle to Wolfman and Wollery (or Agents W1 and W2 as Uncle Joe Stalin used to call them).

 

[Hallo Alfie]

I'm American, so I'll chime in.

On the executions of the chinese women, it seems harsh, but I understand there are culteral differences.

I am generally against the death penalty no matter what the location, because it makes any nistakes permenant. ...and we all know mistakes get made.

I assume this was deliberate; funny either way.