The Death Penalty: Chinese style.

[DOC]

So if that's not your point in starting this thread, what is?

I guess to let people see creepy things happening in the world's most populated country.

How incredibly creepy. Ugh.

 

[DrDave]

I guess to let people see creepy things happening in the world's most populated country.

What makes it creepy, if not the execution itself?

 

[MRC_Hans]

I guess to let people see creepy things happening in the world's most populated country.

Again, explain to me what the creepy part is.

... That they have death penalty? - Sure, but we knew that.
... That they let people in to photograph the convicts shortly before execution? - Yes, that is a bit creepy. Publishing them is even creepier. But I understand that this was not usual procedure.

But otherwise?

Hans

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

I guess to let people see creepy things happening in the world's most populated country.

Ok, that's a start. Now please explain what about it strikes you as creepy about the Chinese style, as opposed to, dunno, good ol' American style.

 

[Mark6]

I guess I have different attitude than DOC, Saraban or Cleon, because I see absolutely nothing cruel or creepy about these pictures. If anything, they show Chinese executions being about as humane as execution possibly can be. In fact, I agree with Geni -- they look TOO civilized, and may well be staged so as to make Chinese justice appear kinder than it actually is.

 

[richardm]

At any rate, the retail value of the whole outfit, in China, is only a few dollars.

If it's true that they invoice the family for the bullet used, presumably they'll have to stump up for the outfit too.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

Here are some interesting pictures of alleged woman drug dealers the day before their executions in Communist China.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...n-pictures-Women-executed-drug-smuggling.html

Thanks.

 

[Wolfman]

I cannot comment one way or the other on the veracity of these pictures; but would say that such behavior is not that unusual or unexpected. Chinese culture emphasizes smiling in the face of adversity, not showing fear, etc. One of the things that can be difficult for foreigners to get used to here is that if you hurt yourself (for example, trip and sprain an ankle), the immediate response is for people to laugh and smile. It can seem very much that they're laughing at you, mocking your stupidity, and showing no sympathy.

But in fact, this is how its done here...you laugh or smile to show that "It's okay, it's not that serious". They do the same thing with their own children (when I saw that, I realized that I wasn't being singled out for mockery).

When I first came to China, every public train station would have photos of people who'd been executed. At that time, the only method of execution available was a bullet to the back of the head...which kinda' tended to blow the face out entirely. These pictures were post-execution, with faces partially obliterated...it was terribly graphic. Underneath, they'd list the person's name, and the crime they'd been convicted for.

I've gotta' say, as a deterrent, I'd think it was pretty damn effective (not that I support or condone it at all...it was terrible).

They stopped doing that around 1995 or 1996. Today, in larger cities, criminals have a choice between a bullet, and lethal injection. The latter was added several years ago in response to Western objections to the bullet-to-the-back-of-the-head thing being too brutal and inhumane. Ironically, at least according to what I've read, the majority of prisoners still choose the bullet over the injection, the former being much quicker and more reliable (no firing squad that might miss...this is a close-range shot to the back of the head, with bullets designed to disintegrate inside and cause maximum damage...pretty much no chance of missing or needing more than one shot).

In smaller cities, the bullet is still the only option available.

The vast majority of Chinese fully support capital punishment; some may object to how many crimes it is used for (it can be applied to a rather staggering range of crimes), but not to the principle.

 

[Akhenaten]

I didn't say I was for or against the death penalty.

Well, now's your big chance.

 

[MRC_Hans]

If it's true that they invoice the family for the bullet used, presumably they'll have to stump up for the outfit too.

They don't. It seems that has happened on occasion in the past (the pay for the bullet thing), but it is obviously not an economic thing, it is part of the punishment. In Chinese culture, being executed is one thing, bringing shame over your family is another, and worse, thing. This far pre-dates the communist regime: In the age of the emperors, they had several severity levels of death penalty. The mildest one, you were killed. Next, you and your oldest son were killed. Then over increasing levels to the worst level, where you, your whole family, and everybody who ever knew you, were killed.

We may see the present Chinese regime as undemocratic and despotic, but compared to history in that country, it is really a picnic.

Hans

 

[zooterkin]

I've gotta' say, as a deterrent, I'd think it was pretty damn effective (not that I support or condone it at all...it was terrible).

You'd think so, wouldn't you? Yet people continue to commit crimes for which the penalty is execution.

 

[Halfcentaur]

Doc, and any other Americans willing to answer, how do feel about the Chinese executing these women and do you feel the same about the executions that take place in US prisons? This is not a dig at America or Americans; it is a genuine question.

Thanks.

I think it's appalling personally, and I feel the same way about our executions here in the US.

 

[a_unique_person]

You'd think so, wouldn't you? Yet people continue to commit crimes for which the penalty is execution.

People continue to commit crimes because they think the risk is worth it. Apart from that, how many of these people are actually guilty?

 

[Wolfman]

You'd think so, wouldn't you? Yet people continue to commit crimes for which the penalty is execution.

Well, there are several other factors. Quite a few crimes are unpremeditated (done out of anger, etc.); others are acts of desperation. In such cases, nothing is going to be much of a deterrent. There's also the issue of corruption in China, where people who had connections would think they would have a good chance of getting away with the crime (in fact, most criminals who commit premeditated crimes usually think they will be able to get away without being caught). However, I will say that the rates of certain kinds of crimes in China are, by percentage, much lower than in a country like Canada. As Hans mentioned above, there's not just the issue of personal punishment, there's also the issue of the shame it brings on your family. But the fact that China has such a freakin' huge population means that even with lower rates of crime, there are still an awful lot of people being convicted.

People continue to commit crimes because they think the risk is worth it. Apart from that, how many of these people are actually guilty?

This will vary.

In large cities, for non-political crimes, convictions will generally be fairly reliable...they do have the standard of 'innocent until proven guilty', with the burden of proof being put on the authorities. Political crimes, by contrast, require no burden of proof, and can be used pretty much with impunity.

But in less developed regions, where corruption is much more common, convictions are much more suspect. There was a case just this year where a man had been convicted of murder, and imprisoned for many years, based on a 'confession' that had been beaten out of him. The body of his 'victim' was never found, there was no evidence other than the coerced confession (which he later retracted, saying he'd been forced to give it)...and the authorities were left in a rather uncomfortable situation when, many years later, the convicted man's "victim" showed up alive and well.

This story hit the national media big time, and led to so many public protests and condemnation that the gov't ended up writing new laws to specifically address the issue of coerced confessions, making them no longer admissable (previously, they had been).

So, its far from perfect...but getting better. And the internet has proven to be a very powerful tool in generating change, as the gov't can no longer control the information people are getting.

 

[Multivac]

I don't know of any Americans getting executed for dealing in drugs.

Thankyou for replying, but the question I was asking is "how do you feel about the Chinese executing these women and do you feel the same about the executions that take place in US prisons?"

 

[Multivac]

I think it's appalling personally, and I feel the same way about our executions here in the US.

Thankyou. As a Brit, I am glad that we stopped executing criminals in 1964.

 

[Wolfman]

Thankyou for replying, but the question I was asking is "how do you feel about the Chinese executing these women and do you feel the same about the executions that take place in US prisons?"

For the record, I'm universally opposed to capital punishment, be it in China, the U.S., or anywhere else.

This isn't because I think it is wrong to execute someone like a murderer or a rapist; it is because of the potential to execute an innocent person. If we were able to develop a system where guilt could be determined with 100% certainty in 100% of cases, and the person's mental state at the time of committing the crime (something I don't think is possible either now, or in the future), then I could support it, at least in some cases of particularly heinous crimes.

ETA: I should add in the issue of rehabilitation...if we could determine with 100% certainty who could be rehabilitated, and who could not, I'd also consider that to be a factor -- those who we were 100% certain were guilty, and 100% certain could not be rehabilitated, I'd say go ahead and execute 'em. But since I don't believe we'll ever attain such a state of knowledge, I'm effectively 100% opposed to capital punishment.

 

[a_unique_person]

I have read that drug dealing is culturally significant in China, this was the country that had the opium wars.

 

[Wolfman]

I have read that drug dealing is culturally significant in China, this was the country that had the opium wars.

Oh, yeah...drug dealing is dealt with very harshly. The Opium Wars play a part in it, but so does culture...other Asian countries (Thailand and Singapore come readily to mind) tend to be extremely strict in this regard, also.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Oh, yeah...drug dealing is dealt with very harshly. The Opium Wars play a part in it, but so does culture...other Asian countries (Thailand and Singapore come readily to mind) tend to be extremely strict in this regard, also.

Yeah, and compared to 20 years in a Thai prison, a bullet through the head seems almost attractive.

Hans