Merged The challenge is coming to an end.

[HarryKeogh]

Relax, I am sure the Atheist will (maybe already has) come up with everything wrong with this and JREF in general and will enlighten the peasants in His Chosen Time.

Well, there's always his 2 Million Dollar Challenge.

 

[Soapy Sam]

I'm with Teek.
The challenge was a good gimmick, but it's time for a change.
It has been clear for some years that it took up a lot of time and targeted the wrong people.
What's needed is some way to target the right people.

Look at the effect RSL is having. Whether he brings Slyvia down or not, he is helping people escape her damaging influence.
Perhaps this is the way JREF should be moving?

 

[Sespetoxri]

What is the point of the challenge?

I've been following the JREF and Randi for a long time, but only recently got around to registering on the Forum. I commented in another 'death of the challenge' thread, but wanted to put my 2 cents in here as well.

What purpose does the challenge serve anymore? The only people who are even attempting to win the challenge are, to paraphrase Randi, genuinely deluded people who don't understand themselves what they claim they can do. It's a waste of ANY organization's resources to hold up a large sum of cash in escrow and assign the tasks related to the challenge to otherwise valuable employees who's time is better spent doing something more productive to the mission of the organization. Qui bono? The deluded individuals after the prize, when they lose, don't turn around and realize the errors of their ways, of course. No, they claim it was a 'bad day', the 'energy wasn't right', all the 'negative thoughts' stopped them. So the challenge is, essentially, being wasted on a very very small group of people who aren't going to change their minds anyway.

So what else does it accomplish? Initially, it was created to go after the 'big names' and knock holes in their claims. The big names have, to date, ran screaming from the challenge in all cases. In order for the million to make it's true power known, it would need to take out a Sylvia Brown or a Uri Geller - but they're not foolish enough to try - they'd destroy their reputation. They hide behind statements like 'Randi doesn't have the money' or 'the challenge is rigged'. This is enough for the news media which perpetuates their collective woo to turn a blind eye to the obvious - they can't prove a thing so they can't shut Randi up! So the million can't take out the big names, since they'll never set foot in the ring.

What are we left with? Well, we're left with a million dollars! Those of us who work for small businesses know just how much liquid cash that is, if used wisely. To tie up that kind of money when it's not accomplishing anything aside from allowing us skeptics to say, "If that's true, you can make a million dollars" is just a waste of resources. We have better arguements than that- we have the truth.

But... the JREF has made it all these years without the million, so what's the harm in not stopping the challenge? Well, the JREF has very intelligent people currently being wasted on the challenge. The challenge no one will ever be able to win, since we skeptics already KNOW it's woo-woo. So we have these people languishing day after day, in professional limbo. They're dealing with a dead-end issue, the day to day drudgery of keeping the challenge moving along. Answering emails, letters, threads, phone calls (I presume), and the like. Further, they coordinate testing procedures with the subjects, all over the world! For what? We already know the challenge cannot be answered. Look at the Pear Cable fiasco - months and months of never-ending work for nothing. What was proven? What did all that time and energy actually do for our cause? Not. A. Damn. Thing. We ended up right where we began - we still don't know if someone can tell the difference between a Monster or a Pear. Except, don't we already know it?

In the end we're left with a million dollars earning a relatively small amount of money, and a money sucking pit that is the day to day operation of the challenge.

We don't need the million dollars to disprove the woo. We have our minds, we have science, and we have the skepticism that brings us together. The challenge has already served it's purpose, for ten long years.

We don't need the challenge, we already have reality.

 

[RemieV]

That's good that it wasn't done against the donor's wishes, but I still don't like it.

Will the money be put into investments with higher returns, or is it all going to be spent on various projects? What will be happen to the JREF if the money is all going to be spent? Is this part of a plan to eventually end the JREF upon Randi's retirement?

Well, Randi said in Swift that more information on what, precisely, is going on with the JREF will be available soon...

Although I understand the JREFs decision, I think it's a great shame.

Unfortunately, every single potential claimant for the million dollars could now claim that the JREF will never award the cash as they're intending to utilise it themselves in 2010. And despite Randi's earnest protestations to the contrary, I think that's a difficult argument to conclusively refute.

The JREF now has a clear self-interest in ensuring that the money is not won. Whilst I am sure that the organisation has integrity, I think that this decision affects their perceived impartiality.

The progress of the various applicants is something the JREF is extremely open about. The future of the million dollars doesn't change the fact that the Challenge is pretty transparent. The testing protocols are and have always been mutually agreed upon, and through the forum, anyone who wishes to has access to the open claims.

I'm pleased to hear this. The MDC was a gimmick and paranormal challenges date back in various incarnations, I believe, more than a hundred years. So, it is most definitely time to move on. Either find another, better gimmick or use the money for tangible, measurable work. I applaud JREF for using its assets for (hopefully!) the purposes of actual education in critical thinking, and not just as a prop for what usually turns out to be a bit of a pantomime. The latest test was severely lacking in dignity and 100% useless as a PR tool or indeed any sort of leverage whatsoever. And the press don't care about the MDC generally, so time to find another way to make a point.
Or, skip making points into the ether and start making a difference that can be measured.

With better PR, I think the MDC could have been more famous than it is, but that takes money and without releasing the million there obviously isn't any money, so...catch 22.

I look forward to seeing what the money will be used for.

It's very hard to test someone who claims the ability to make others urinate themselves with dignity.

Okay, I was under the impression that it was Randi's money. Is the donor anonymous, or can you tell us who it is?

Yeah there was an actual $1,000,000 donor, Randi has even said that; however, the donor wished to stay anonymous. I know that a popular rumor was always that the late Johnny Carson was the anonymous donor, but RemieV's comment that: "The donor is fully aware of the change and supports it." hints that the donor is actually alive. So i have no idea who the donor could actually be......

As for the decision to do away with the challenge, i am mixed. I think if the money is spent to pursue a more aggressive strategy to deal with the Sylvia's and Edwards, and more outreach for science and critical thinking it could be the best thing for the JREF and the skeptical community as a whole. It will still be nice though to have a million dollar challenge somewhere.....

I always thought to myself that the donor was Penn J.

The donor would indeed like to remain anonymous. I don't know who it is, or is not. But speculation is fun!

 

[tkingdoll]

This news is not good. I'm not sure that 'gimmick' is the right word but if it is, it is a great gimmick to make people think.

Yes, but as I said, is it worth a million dollars? Or could you spend a million dollars in another way to make people think?

I think you could. I know I could. I could get the front page of every national newspaper with a big enough budget. I could get critical thinking materials into almost every school in America, with a big enough budget.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, what the Creationists have done for Creation Science, anyone could do for critical thinking. With a big enough budget. Now there's a great big budget available, let's see what JREF do with it.

 

[Beerina]

Maybe someone else can fill the role, challenge-wise? Is Criss Angel all talk?

I'm sure this is the core of it. Randi's getting older, and he won't be able to provide the advice on uncovering trickery forever, and he may be worried nobody else can fit the bill, or conceivably of a successor slacking and letting the prize get won (if not outright fraud), either of which would be a complete disaster for the cause.

I just hope Sylvia goes first.

 

[Beerina]

I always thought to myself that the donor was Penn J.

As one of the kings of Vegas, I'm sure nowadays it's walking around cash for him, but 10 years ago?

I, too, was under the impression the million was lots of donations...for the purpose of creating this fund. But I also thought it was all promises at the beginning (sort of a bunch of people agreeing to contribute if someone should win it, like deep pockets investors in insurance houses "back" this or that thing financially.) I do seem to remember something about an announce from Randi some years back about putting the million on some kind of more stable footing. Perhaps this investor was it.

 

[The Atheist]

Relax, I am sure the Atheist will (maybe already has) come up with everything wrong with this and JREF in general and will enlighten the peasants in His Chosen Time.

Someone calling my name?

Well, there's always his 2 Million Dollar Challenge.

Correct, and it segues nicely into my thoughts on the demise of the MDC.


It's always seemed poor use of the money to have $1M tied up, useless beyond $5-10k annual income, which is a pittance in anyone's parlance. Anyone wishing to discuss it can take the subject elsewhere and I'll gladly join in, but million dollar plus challenges aren't very difficult to arrange, and at a cost of virtually nothing.

The challenge itself does generate publicity, which is why I'd like to see it continue (and even increase to say $10M). Sure, it's only a million, but as noted, it's still worthy enough that it's used in the media. Plus, a little anecdotal evidence; I have seen several mentions of the challenge at other forums and it's always the challenge which gets mentioned, not the "Randi" part. In many cases, I've seen the person mentioning the MDC not even knowing Randi's name, but he knew that a paranormal MDC existed.

JREF can have the best of worlds here. Whether it chooses to or not is over to it, but as long as the million is used wisely and not frittered away on funding deficits, I can only see the change as positive.

Maybe they could use it as a golden handshake for the next leader?

 

[tkingdoll]

It's very hard to test someone who claims the ability to make others urinate themselves with dignity.

Oh, I certainly think Jeff behaved with as much dignity as anyone could muster under the circumstances, I've seen the videos! But the claim as a whole is not dignified - trying to make someone pee. And the claimant just made a fool of herself. Although Jeff has since clarified that the videos on YouTube have been very popular and brought new members and donations, so I retract my assertion that it had no leverage. But I doubt very much the JREF wants to be seen as 'the pee people'.

 

[MWare]

Assuming (and I know this is a baseless assumption) it was the investor who might be getting older and wishes that their money could be used in a tangible way in the near future, I wonder if Randi would reinstate the challenge if another donor was to step forward and donate for specifically the purpose of keeping the challenge alive.

I am amongst those who are sorry to see the challenge die. Yes, I suppose gimmick could be an accurate description of it, but gimmicks certainly have their place. Yes, skeptics may have little need for the challenge, but for those fence sitting believers who might be still be won over from the dark side, I know I've encountered a few who raised an eyebrow to those who wouldn't take the challenge - especially after publicly accepting. Then when the believers would see the people they believed in refusing to take the challenge with the same silly arguments as people they didn't necessarily believe in I think it may have opened the door a little to some folks to see their beliefs a little differently. I too enjoyed using it as a quick and easy "so prove it" to the everyday people I sometimes see around my area making earth shattering paranormal claims. $1mil may be nothing to an SB type character, but my local tarot card reader certainly isn't bursting from excess income.

I also think it was a great point when someone mentioned that the money wasn't just sitting there, but actually was providing some income. It wasn't just gathering dust doing no good at all. I am willing to be convinced that the 1 mil could be spent in a real positive and lasting way, but the idea of taking a page ad in every major newspaper (I realize it wasn't a serious suggestion) or some other one-time or short-term deal really doesn't seem as useful as this challenge which has been a major PR talking point for a decade. It really seemed like the gift that kept on giving regardless if SB or her ilk every took it seriously. I'm struggling to think of a way $1mil could be spent today (or over time) such that it would have the same positive effects for more than a decade, but if anybody can do it, I suppose it would be the Amazing.

As always, I continue to support JREF and wish Randi and his crew the best as they keep up the good fight and I certainly hope that some emergency need didn't play any part in this (health care costs or something).

 

[RemieV]

By the way, feedback is always appreciated.

[email protected]

 

[Wolfman]

I side with those who think this is a good thing.

Quite frankly, I was never that impressed with the million dollar challenge. Hell, there's a Christian organization that has put up a one million dollar reward to anyone who can "conclusively prove evolution". And there are many similar challenges out there.

The truth is, those who are atheists and don't believe in the supernatural will generally believe that Randi's challenge is legitimate, and the reason it hasn't been won is because those claiming supernatural powers are charlatans. On the other hand, those who believe in supernatural powers will simply assume that the challenge is rigged, and/or that those with real supernatural powers have no need to verify those powers to Randi or his organization. (Just as the exact opposite will be true in regards to the million dollar challenge to 'prove' evolution; those who believe in evolution will claim it is rigged, and those who do not will hold the fact that no one has won the prize as 'proof' that evolution is not real).

In short, it is a gimmick. And, in my opinion, a fairly poor gimmick -- when compared with other things that the JREF could be doing with the money.

I guess that much of my concern is that too much of the JREF's activities are focused on the personality of James Randi himself. Now, when he was simply an individual, doing public appearances aimed at debunking various supernatural claims, a $10,000 prize was a decent gimmick to give him more publicity -- he was a performer, and the money was his gimmick to get people to watch him.

The JREF has grown (or should grow) far beyond the man who started it (and is going to be forced to do so eventually, either by James Randi's resignation from the organization, or from his death). The JREF can no longer afford to rely on James Randi's personality or reputation.

It is time for the JREF to grow. My personal opinion is that the JREF has been essentially trapped in adolescence, unable to grow beyond a certain point because -- as has been said again and again and again by JREF representatives here -- the JREF "is James Randi's organization, and is run the way he wants to run it."

Yes, the man has accomplished a lot with the JREF. And yes, he deserves respect for what the JREF has accomplished. But my god, there is so much more potential, so much more that the JREF could (and should) be doing.

Yeah, the one million dollar challenge is a great gimmick. And yeah, there will be criticism from people who claim that the decision to end the challenge is proof that it was never real. But come on...who really thinks that those who make such claims would have been convinced otherwise if the challenge continued? Almost none.

Let's get that million dollars out doing what, in my opinion, should be the core focus of the James Randi Educational Foundation. Not the "James Randi" part, but the "Education" part. Organize more conferences. Publish more books. Support more projects aimed at promoting skepticism and scientific thinking.

What it comes down to for me is this:

We have a new generation of children out there...children who are being fed lies and misinformation about their world. Will a million dollar challenge make one iota of difference to those children?

I'd say no.

But would using that million dollars -- and funds from other sources -- to promote education and a realistic, scientific view of the world make a difference? Damn straight it would.

Yeah, short-term, this decision will cause problems, and criticisms, and complaints.

But the JREF cannot afford to be an organization with a short-term vision. Its vision must be long-term, and focus on what will gain the greatest benefits for the greatest number of people. Yeah, the MDC is a good thing...I'm not saying that its not good. But there are better things -- more effective, with more long-lasting and enduring results -- that this money can be used for.

 

[RSLancastr]

If Randi retires, I nominate Robert Lancaster to take his place.

Thanks, but nobody can take Randi's place!

As for the end of the MDC: Perhaps now the JREF can have a Zero Dollar Challenge, just for those who said that they could never do something so base as to use their "powers" for financial gain...

 

[RSLancastr]

I just hope Sylvia goes first.

You mean Stops first.

 

[Hindmost]

I always enjoyed being able to use the challenge against the woo, so I am in favor of keeping some type of test scheme available. However, change can be needed as there is reasonable evidence that the challenge is not converting the masses to critical thinking. Sylvia and her crowd are never going to accept anyhow...

The jury is out until we see what happens next and how effective using the money is.

glenn

 

[ynot]

I agree that the million could and should be used for better purposes. The MDC has been offered for long enough that it can now rest on it’s laurels. To be able to say that the MDC was offered would probably be just as effective as saying it is offered.

Now . . . how best to spend a million?

 

[latent aaaack]

Keeping the best of both worlds: have the challenge continue as a $10,000 challenge instead. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

Whether it's a million or a thousand the challenge is worth only the amount of media coverage it gets and education is causes. When I first saw Sylvia Brown on Larry King or whatever as a teenager I believed her claims and it wasn't until Randi came on or (forgot which one) I read her claims refuted when I searched the net that I understood she was a fake. It's imperative only that the media keep on going to Randi or a skeptic whenever the subject of the supernatural comes up on television.

 

[tkingdoll]

I agree that the million could and should be used for better purposes. The MDC has been offered for long enough that it can now rest on it’s laurels. To be able to say that the MDC was offered would probably be just as effective as saying it is offered.

Zackly. It just needs a little spin. How about

"oh really, you have ESP? Well, James Randi offered a million dollars for ten years to anyone who could demonstrate paranormal ability, and not one single person even made it through the preliminary test. When push came to shove, none of them could do what they claimed. What does that tell you?"

 

[Miss Whiplash]

I agree with Teek on this. The Challenge has been around a long time in some form or another. The only way to get more mileage out of the same gimmick is to up the prize or make it a reality show where woo-woos are humiliated on a weekly basis. Both are expensive possibilities.

With more austere financial times looming on the horizon in America, I think it's wise to regroup at this time. Sure, woos will take shots at the end of the prize, but when have woos ever put a positive spin on anything where Randi is involved?

 

[Wowbagger]

I feel a bit ticked off at this news. When I learn more about the circumstances, maybe I will feel better.

But, right now, I wish I was a multi-millionaire, so I could re-donate the money, and keep the challenge going.