The Boy Scouts

[Brainache]

I'm hoping to cause subversion from within. Sort of an infiltrator, or spy.

That's at least partially serious. If my troop were to ever practice the sort of discrimination that BSA policy actually calls for, I would raise holy hell about it. I don't expect to ever have to do that, but I will if necessary. Meanwhile, being in the organization I can influence it. If I were to take a self righteous stand that I couldn't possibly join an organization whose principles I disagree with, I wouldn't be able to do that.

If there were some other organization out there that was as effective in doing what the scouts do, maybe I would join that organization. I don't know of any such group.

(I doubt that it matters, but technically, I haven't done it yet. I've volunteered to be a merit badge counselor and taken the training, but I haven't signed the paperwork)

So is there any kind of internal movement for reform of the nasty old bigoted BSA? You could have clandestine meetings, with secret handshakes and pass each other coded messages by wiggling woggles...

 

[CurtC]

But whether or not you support the BSA, here is an excellent article on the subject that sums up the conundrum for non-believers and gays-------------

http://www.wired.com/geekdad/2010/02/boy-scouts-at-100-years/3/

I've met the guy who wrote that article a couple of times.

 

[Dunstan]

What about "joining" the BSA (as a scout or as a parent volunteer) but refusing to sign any forms, or crossing out the offensive language, and refusing to take any discriminatory or unacceptable oaths?

For example, in "On my honor, I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country, and to obey the Scout Law. To help other people at all times, to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight" cross out or omit the "God and" part.

If it's true that many BSA chapters or local organizations are open-minded and don't really care about this stuff (and I'm perfectly willing to believe that), then what's the problem? If you're in such an environment, then at worst they'll roll their eyes at your nit-picking and ask what you're bringing to next month's jamboree. If they object and insist that you aren't allowed in until you take the oath the "right" way, well, you know where you stand....

 

[roger]

I would be extremely surprised if the prohibition against homosexuals applied to the scouts themselves. As far as I know, it applies only to leaders. I'll try and look it up.

Here's a start:

[FONT=arial, helvetica]"If a youth comes to a Scoutmaster and admits to doing wrong, like stealing, lying, cheating or vandalizing, the normal procedure is to counsel the youth privately and sympathetically...If the youth admits to being a homosexual, the Boy Scouts' policy is to instantly terminate his association with Scouting." Findings of fact, in a DC court case[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica]source[/FONT]

As they continue in the program, all Scouts are expected to take leadership positions. In the unlikely event that an older boy were to hold himself out as homosexual, he would not be able to continue in a youth leadership position.

source

The Boy Scouts of America has always reflected the expectations that Scouting families have had for the organization. We do not believe that homosexuals provide a role model consistent with these expectations. Accordingly, we do not allow for the registration of avowed homosexuals as members or as leaders of the BSA

source

Note that 2 out of three of those are from court cases.

They are bigots.

 

[roger]

I'm hoping to cause subversion from within. Sort of an infiltrator, or spy.

I really do understand what you are saying. I'm sure your community is doing good things.

But, would you join an organization that didn't allow black people if your local chapter ignored it?

I don't know how old your boys are now, but how will you feel if they hit 16, they or their best friend is gay, and they start hearing about the BSA's bigotry, and assertions that homosexuals are not moral or worthy examples of human beings? Or, how much pain might be caused when they are told by some other chapter that they are not moral or much of a human being because they don't believe in God?

I don't know, but aren't you paying some kind of national dues? Would you contribute to a charity that excluded Jews, for example, on the strength of the argument that they are doing good work?

Seriously, would you wear a uniform in public of an organization that excluded blacks? Pointing out to people that you met that well, your chapter doesn't enforce that? An organization that time and time again stated that blacks are morally inferior? Would you allow your child to wear that uniform in public?

And really, what is the difference between excluding a black, or a Jew, or a Catholic, or a homosexual, or an atheist? I honestly don't see the difference, not in any substantial way.

 

[Meadmaker]

I really do understand what you are saying. I'm sure your community is doing good things.

But, would you join an organization that didn't allow black people if your local chapter ignored it? ...

And really, what is the difference between excluding a black, or a Jew, or a Catholic, or a homosexual, or an atheist? I honestly don't see the difference, not in any substantial way.

In the modern world in America, the only organizations that exclude black people are specifically racist organizations. I can't imagine any organization that exists today, that excludes black people, and that I would want to be a part of for some other reason, unrelated to its exclusion of black people.

That's not the case with excluding homosexuals. There are a lot of organizations that exclude homosexuals that I would not condemn. (Example: The United States army.)

Change takes time. As I said before, the exclusion of homosexuals is a relic, and I think its days are numbered. I could wait until they eliminate that restriction, except that my son will be past the age of participation before that happens. I could join a different organization that does the same things, but doesn't discriminate, except that there is no such organization. Instead, I decided that since there was no active discrimination in the area around me, I would participate, accept the good things, and at least occasionally complain about the bad things. I must admit that I was surprised to learn that the ban on homosexuals applied to scouts themselves, and not just leaders. That gives me a bit of pause, but not enough to make me quit. In practice, I can't see it being a problem in my area. In Utah? In South Carolina? Maybe.

As for the exclusion of atheists, it isn't all that bad anyway. The first statement in the section that describes the Boy Scout policy about religion says that the BSA will not do anything that defines what it means to believe in God. In practice, that means pretty much anyone can participate. Many state laws refer to "acts of God", and later say that for the purposes of the law, God=nature. If you are so anti-religious that you can't make yourself fit into such a loose definition, I think you're being a bit uptight about it. I don't like the policy, but in practice it's pretty meaningless. Once again, I think it's a bit of a throwback to a world that existed in the not very distant past, in which it was assumed that only weirdos were atheists. I don't like it, but it's not my top priority to fix, either.

 

[billw]

There's always the Woodcraft Folk. They don't discriminate against anyone - except non-hippies...

A secular amen to that, Prof.

The Boy Scouts were a little too brown-shirtish for my Jewish mother, and us hippie kids needed somewhere to go, so I became a Woodcraft Ranger. I always assumed as a kid that they were a national group, but Wikipedia says they were the Los Angeles branch of the Woodcraft Indians:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodcraft_Indians

 

[porch]

I was in Scouts Canada. I started off with a couple months of Beavers and stuck with it through the first 2 years of Scouts. I seem to recall getting my Religion (World Religion?) badge as a Secular Humanist as per my parents' request to Akela. I'll have to get them to tell me the story next time I see them.

I was confused by the mixture of mythical and military rituals. The Christian God was invoked fairly often. We even sang for Him to save the Queen. Then there was all the Jungle Book stuff, and the Boer war stuff. What did it all mean? We had rallying chants, "Hold 'em down, Zulu warrior!" The Boyscout handshake is based on Zulu warrior tradition, wtf? The Ways of the [Native Canadian] Indians was brought up a lot, too. Overall, a lot of sentimental "believing in belief" type stuff.

 

[shadron]

I was in scouts probably earlier than most people here; say, 1955-1965, cub scouts, boy scouts, explorers, in a suburb of Denver. It was sponsored by the catholic school I attended, except Explorers, which was sponsored by the Glenn L. Martin Corp (builders of Titan rockets). Other troops in the area were sponsored by other churches and perhaps some of the fraternal orders around like the Elks. Religion wasn't a big factor in anything, AFAIK. I think our scoutmaster, an engineer at martin, was not catholic; I never saw him outside of scouts, and that would have been unusual. We attended Sunday mass as a group while on camping trips (if there was somewhere fairly close; we probably grossed out the regular parishioners), and there was the yearly effort to get everyone to try for the Ad Altare Dei medal (the catholic religious medal), but religion as a whole at the time was a very laid back affair. I remember that there were 7 or 8 different religious medals for different sects (and Buddhists were represented, as well as Islam, Protestantism, Mormonism, and a few others. It was always optional (I, for one, never earned the medal). The issues of sexual orientation and atheism never came up that I remember.

It seems to have sort-of got along on that basis until the religious right started getting some political power, and all of a sudden they started raising Baden Powell's supposed religiosity (it always seemed to me, as an excuse).

I've been told (and this is just hearsay, no real proof) that the BSA headquarters in Texas had always been a stronghold for evangelicals, and more lately for Mormon religious. It is a fact that one of the strongest contingents are the Mormons for sponsoring troops, and while Baptists and Lutherans in the past had their own boys/girls clubs, the Mormons apparently never did, always running with the scouts.

 

[sgtbaker]

I guess it just comes down to how you see it. I am not comfortable with special interest groups being able to buy classroom time. Going back to the stone age, when I was in school, flyers or more appropriately stone tablets with words carved into them, going home with students for the parents to read that night, sufficed. Why is classroom time being used to promote any group? Kids do a lot of independant learning, as it is, because they claim that there is just not enough time in the day to go over all this. I've sat in the classrooms, I know how fast they move so I don't mind working with my kids to help them understand what the teacher couldn't go into depth about in the classroom. So while I am contemplating getting a teaching degree just to help my children complete their homework, they are going to tell me that this valuable, precious, and very limited resource is being used so special interest groups can pitch their sale to 10/11 year olds?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Let's not throw the baby out with the bath, here. The Boy Scouts are an excellent, but not perfect, organization. In my experience, there is no barrier to participation based on either religion or sexual orientation, regardless of what the official rules say. (Granted, I haven't paid much attention to the sexual orientation difficulties, which I suspect are a bigger problem.) I suppose it's good to keep raising the issues, to keep pressure on that will eventually goad them into changes, but that takes time. In the meantime, there's no reason to keep your kid out of them based on those reasons, and there's no reason to try to force other kids out of the Scouts, either.

I don't know that I would say that. I agree with many of their goals and beliefs, but I am not sure I would rate them highly as an organisation. I think it is all about local troops and organizations. The troop I was in was lame and boring, if there was more outdoors activities I would have been more active in it.

 

[dafydd]

Well, bigotry is pretty indefensible, after all.

True.Why do some people think that a gay man is automatically a pedophile? a scoutmaster is not a Catholic priest.

 

[ponderingturtle]

The policy is. I haven’t disputed that. In fact, I’ve stated it at least once. The organization, on the other hand, is another matter.

The organization is the problem, it is the individual units that can be OK. But as an organisation it is about bigotry.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Sometimes the Scout Master brings up wanting to focus on the reverent part of the oath and a couple of us suggest that isn't such a good idea since religion is such a personal thing. I hope that we can continue with that philosophy. I did recently notice that in order to teach merit badges, you had to sign an application that says something along the lines that you recognize that it is only through God that you can be a moral member of society or something like that. I had to ignore that bit to become a merit badge councilor. It's hard to be an atheist and be in scouts. Only one father in the troop knows that I am an atheist and it seems he is an agnostic, a couple of the other fathers in the troop are very religious and I would prefer that they did not know about my lack of religiosity.

How can you be a good scout if you are being that dishonest, isn't honesty a virtue in the scouts?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Then you’ll also have noted where I said Boy Scouts was not for everyone? Because I did say that, and I fully understand that some people have had very bad experiences in Scouting for any number of reasons. Some people have had very bad experiences camping, but would I suggest that they go? Well, yeah, if it’s something you’re interested in, you should probably give it a shot. Just because there have been people who didn’t agree with the camping concept, doesn’t mean that you should curtail your enthusiasm for the idea.

The same holds here for Boy Scouts. If you’re not interested in allowing your son to pursue Boy Scouts, that’s completely understandable. But that’s not going to stop me from expressing the idea that some boys get a great deal from the experience, and that the organization, on the whole, is a good one.



You probably should review the Scout Oath then:

On my honor, I will do my best to do my duty to God an my country, and to obey the Scout Law. To help other people at all times, to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight. [emphasis added]​

While I am certain your son is a fine, upstanding young man, just as both of mine are (though one hasn’t learned to stand, much less sit up, yet), I would be highly skeptical of him doing his duty to his country at all times. I would also be interested to know if he actually lends assistance to all people at all times, or if this cuts into his workout schedule at the gym while he attempts to keep himself “physically strong”. I’d be interested to know how he manages to be “mentally awake” during all hours of the day, especially with all that helping other people “at all times” and the previous mentioned gym schedule? Or does he find that, like most youth his age, the growing up, hormone changes, rewiring of his adolescent brain into its adult state, school schedule, extracurricular activities, etc., sometimes leave him run down? And what does he consider to be “morally straight”? Is this the same as what you consider to be morally straight, or is it slightly different? Which morally straight does he follow, and does he follow it at all times in all cases, or does he find that there are certain situations where he adapts his moral code to fit the circumstances?

The thing is that you are arguing for certain acceptable levels of hypocrisy. You are having people take oaths that include parts that they never had any intention to keep and shouldn't intend to keep. This is undermining the whole concept of honor being associated with scouting.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Seriously, would you wear a uniform in public of an organization that excluded blacks? Pointing out to people that you met that well, your chapter doesn't enforce that? An organization that time and time again stated that blacks are morally inferior? Would you allow your child to wear that uniform in public?

So how do you feel about people who wear military uniforms in public? They also specifically exclude homosexuals.

 

[Mister Agenda]

The boy scouts have merit badges for their Buddist members.

But not for their Unitarian members. They've decided it doesn't count as a religion.

 

[CurtC]

To those suggesting that "nature's God" could be what YOU mean when you join, here is the specific Declaration of Religious Principle that you have to explicitly acknowledge agreeing with in order to join. It's specifically a theistic version of God that they require belief in:

“The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, ‘On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law.’ The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members."

 

[pgwenthold]

Am I the only one who finds it ironic that an organization that prides itself on "citizenship" can, at least in the US, insist its members are religious?

 

[Meadmaker]

I guess it just comes down to how you see it. I am not comfortable with special interest groups being able to buy classroom time. Going back to the stone age, when I was in school, flyers or more appropriately stone tablets with words carved into them, going home with students for the parents to read that night, sufficed. Why is classroom time being used to promote any group? Kids do a lot of independant learning, as it is, because they claim that there is just not enough time in the day to go over all this. I've sat in the classrooms, I know how fast they move so I don't mind working with my kids to help them understand what the teacher couldn't go into depth about in the classroom. So while I am contemplating getting a teaching degree just to help my children complete their homework, they are going to tell me that this valuable, precious, and very limited resource is being used so special interest groups can pitch their sale to 10/11 year olds?

I must agree with this part of the issue. While I have no objection to using school facilities for Boy Scout or darned near any other community group, it doesn't seem appropriate for recruitment during class time. (FWIW, I understand exactly why they do it, and back in the '70s I was recruited into Cub Scouts with an in class presentation, but I, personally, don't think it's a good use of time.)