The Biblical Realities of Hell

[ncdrawl]

no.
you are merely being insulting to avoid answering uncomfortable questions.
very un-christ-like of you.

Athiests imploring others to act more christ-like for the win.

How predictable. What next?

 

[bikerdruid]

Athiests imploring others to act more christ-like for the win.

How predictable. What next?

i am not an atheist.

christians claim to follow christ.
it is not unreasonable to expect them to not be hypocrites.
i questioned one of edge's claims.
he accused me of being on drugs.
i don't recall jesus ever doing that.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Your labeling what I say doesn't mean a thing.
Read into it.
I got to go because I have to now.
Peace be with you.

No, I'm describing it exactly as it is. You are putting words in my mouth because you are upset that I have pointed out that there are horrible things written in your holy book. I'm sorry they are there, but don't get upset and blame me for simply pointing them out.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Ask him if I am right behind the scenes, pm him.
Prove me wrong.

Got to go!

That doesn't make the least bit of sense. Are you being deliberately obtuse in order to avoid pursuing this issue further?

 

[dafydd]

That doesn't make the least bit of sense. Are you being deliberately obtuse in order to avoid pursuing this issue further?

I don't think it's deliberate.

 

[Ladewig]

I have a plan to increase communication in Edge threads.

Step 1) Edge reads the Bible cover to cover.

This step will help avoid problems such as the ones that have occurred over the past few pages. For instance, when asked if God condemns homosexuality, Edge replied:

Again get your head out of the O.T. that was one people's interpretation of God.

Apparently Edge is unaware that the New Testament condemns homosexuality in several places. Romans 1:24-27; I Timothy 1:10; Jude 7; and I Corinthians 6:9-10.

So tell us, Edge, does the true and correct interpretation of God's message condemn homosexuals?

Everything in the universe is based on reward and punishment.

Again, the New Testament says otherwise. Matthew 5:45 God "maketh the rain fall on the just and on the unjust." No, not everything on Earth is based on reward and punishment.

But even today I want to give up in here and I can’t, the word to do that hasn’t been given to me, because he is persistent about what he wants, and it’s simple as, so that all can be saved and I suspect it is as many as possible.

But the Bible clearly instructs proselytizers thusly - Matthew 10:14 "If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet." Perhaps it is time to walk away and your arrogance is keeping you here instead of going out to share the word with people who want to hear it. You are wasting your time here when you could help people craving God.

In any case, discussing the Bible with you, Edge, will be easier if you read the Bible.

 

[TimCallahan]

(snippet) . . . When I was atheistic I used some of the same arguments, but that was long ago.
So now there are even more and better arguments from atheists that I couldn't answer at a certain point.

That started about 5 or 6 years ago, I was asked questions of great logic that I couldn’t answer.
So I asked God to help with the answers since he went through great lengths to bring me back to him, to keep me from becoming atheistic again or not. . . .

Edge, I'm joining this thread late, so perhaps I missed some reference to this in an earlier post. However, it seems to me that this is the first time you've mentioned formerly being an atheist. So what happened? Did you have a dramatic conversion experience or what?

 

[Ladewig]

Most deeply, we have the hardest time believing God loves us more than we love ourselves.

We do?! What is so hard about that message? IF the Bible were true, then the death of Jesus would make it abundantly clear how much God loves us. Who would not understand that?

Being, love, life, pleasure, health, freedom, beauty, art, friendship, consciousness, self-consciousness, meaning, the soul, persons, altruism, morality, justice, mercy, etc. are all generally regarded as ultimately as ends. Because they are ends none of them can be produced by merely practical, natural processes.

Really? Health and beauty cannot be achieved through practical, natural processes? Perhaps it would help if you defined what you meant by "practical natural processes."

Following out any of these lines of thought will lead us to a Higher Power, so typically clarity is not as important as courage.

Nope, when it comes to understanding clarity is way more important than courage.


...................
ETA: a belated welcome to the board. If you think the God of the Bible deserves respect, I'd love to hear why in this thread http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200937

 

[Pup]

But the practical paradox is this: you have to submit a truth to become more free for the next truth. The more you submit, the more free and the more truth, and so on. This works in every area of life from math to ethics to physics, etc.; but we shy away from submitting to truth because we have a hard time believing we'll get more by letting go. Most deeply, we have the hardest time believing God loves us more than we love ourselves.

It seems you're making the assumption that "God loves us..." is an objective truth we must submit to, but not allowing for the fact that "God is a human-created myth" could be the actual objective truth.

Why is that? I've seen no evidence for god's existence.

I expect you have a hard time believing you'd feel more free if you let go of your belief in god. You talk about courage, but letting go of that belief seems to require courage that you're lacking.

A subjective argument is pointless without evidence or data. As the previous paragraph shows, it can be turned right around and applied the other way.

Being, love, life, pleasure, health, freedom, beauty, art, friendship, consciousness, self-consciousness, meaning, the soul, persons, altruism, morality, justice, mercy, etc. are all generally regarded as ultimately as ends. Because they are ends none of them can be produced by merely practical, natural processes.

I'd say they're means to an end, the end being the better survival of humans. That's why they've arisen through practical, natural processes.

 

[tsig]

First thing even though they are believing in different ways they have chosen a path that moves them forward to attempt a union with God.

Those different sects come from different cultures, nations and locality.
For instance the Deep South is predominantly Baptists.
The Chicago area is probably more of an Orthodox and Catholic persuasion.
This is from hard headedness and stiff necks. Just like the Hebrews.

When I was atheistic I used some of the same arguments, but that was long ago.
So now there are even more and better arguments from atheists that I couldn't answer at a certain point.

That started about 5 or 6 years ago, I was asked questions of great logic that I couldn’t answer.
So I asked God to help with the answers since he went through great lengths to bring me back to him, to keep me from becoming atheistic again or not.
They are not all from me, and even I have to do some of the legwork.

The answers to the objections seem to just appear in several different ways.

In some instances they are things that I read before I even know that people in here have asked the question till I come in here and I already have a link or source before I know the question existed in here.

There are many ways that this happen.
My whole though is and was that if God is true and true and moral, that he will work through me, because I might be at a loss to answer.

There were many times as a Christian I wanted to leave and never come in here again, because it was oppressive and depressing.


Till I was shown and helped by the Holy spirit/God. It's not totally…. the perfect answer all the time, because of the Faith issue that God has implemented for now in these times.

But never the less it is amazing to me, because it clarifies it and refines it.
The answers are the only way that works to help understand his morality as being totally good and correct.

I have seen pastors join this forum and fall in less time than I have been here.
If this wasn’t true I would have joined your ranks.
After 10 years in here and another five being backed up with God that will never ever happen.

But even today I want to give up in here and I can’t, the word to do that hasn’t been given to me, because he is persistent about what he wants, and it’s simple as, so that all can be saved and I suspect it is as many as possible.
So the one thing right now I can tell you is that he hasn’t given up yet.
Not until Grace is withdrawn.

So one of my impressions is that it would be a great loss to God if your intellect is forfeited and we don’t have you with us later, because you are smart moral and correct in many things that make you interesting to talk to, if it is in a positive manner.

This is what I get.
Also the time is coming when I won’t be here either and I am hoping that will be soon.

Many in here think that heaven will be boring because it will be a never ending vacation of praising the lord but your work will continue my work will continue and his works will continue.
Learning more will continue, even now and later.
Read the parable about the vineyard owner.
There’s time, thank God.
That’s praising, parsing is approving or thanking something most of us do always and anyways, because it is good for humans and for the spirit of others.

All this that I wrote did not come from me even now.

This is the first time I am reveling this to you about how I know.

Even I still have to have faith for the unseen.
Are we

You really don't want to address this problem, do you? Are you, and those who agree with you 100% regarding theological matters, the only people to have truly accepted Jesus into your hearts? There is no god but God and Edge is his prophet?

That would be a yes.

 

[tsig]

All truth has the perception of being "intolerant" to falsehood. It's the nature of truth. And it's true for any system of beliefs, not just religion.

This notion applies to all belief systems, not just religious ones. Thus the real key/challenge is aligning oneself to the truth.

Also, freedom has this paradox in that you are subjectively free to reject truth, but you are not objectively free to. E.g, you are "free" to make a mistake on your checkbook, in one sense, but in another sense you are not free, because that involves changing the laws of math.

More specifically, the modern mind is typically only concerned with "freedom from" (subjectively) and tend to ignore "freedom for" (objectively), or, efficient cause (where it's coming from) vs. final cause (where it's going) because the latter involves the notions of ends or perfection or final cause, the reason of reasons, which all point to God. Only considering he former has the illusion of offering more freedom, but it does not without the latter.

Any set of beliefs that claims to have the highest truth contains this subjectively perception of limiting freedom, including atheism, agnosticism, and even the dogma that all dogmas are evil (which is of course, self-contradictory.) When actually, each choice for full freedom (both "from" and "for") actually makes one more free.

But the practical paradox is this: you have to submit a truth to become more free for the next truth. The more you submit, the more free and the more truth, and so on. This works in every area of life from math to ethics to physics, etc.; but we shy away from submitting to truth because we have a hard time believing we'll get more by letting go. Most deeply, we have the hardest time believing God loves us more than we love ourselves.

Regarding another issue, religion (which means "relationship") has both matter and essence. So sure, it has the raw material of the brain and environment, but that doesn't explain what comes through it. That is, describing what materials colored windows is composed of doesn't explain the light shining through stained glass.

do you, Athiests(or anyone watching), believe that somethings are ends in the themselves and aren't means to something else?

Being, love, life, pleasure, health, freedom, beauty, art, friendship, consciousness, self-consciousness, meaning, the soul, persons, altruism, morality, justice, mercy, etc. are all generally regarded as ultimately as ends. Because they are ends none of them can be produced by merely practical, natural processes. Almost everyone admits to this, important documents like the Constitution are founded on three of these self-evident axioms: life, freedom, happiness.

Ignoring this is the same issue as above -- we don't want to deal with the ends question because it's a religious pointer.

Following out any of these lines of thought will lead us to a Higher Power, so typically clarity is not as important as courage.

Without clarity the courageous man just ran off a cliff.

 

[Paulhoff]

I find it funny that the so-called god of the bible is anything anyone today would want as their god. To me it only shows what little people know and/or care to know about the universe they live in. It seems they only want easy answers, and in the long run, they are only reflections of their own thoughts anyway.


Paul

 

[Sun Countess]

Again get your head out of the O.T. that was one peoples interpretations of God.

And it's still part of the Christian bible.

Everything in the universe is based on reward and punishment.
Think about that for a moment.

I've tried thinking about it, but it honestly makes no sense. There's no reward and punishment in the universe.
What exactly are the rewards and punishments meted out by the universe? If our planet gets hit by a giant asteroid, it's not cosmic punishment.

Then everything from the beginning is about morals from a creator.

You keep saying this. It's not true. There is no creator.

There are good lessons in the O.T too; you just purposefully reject any of it, NT or OT, just so happens that you can find the best negativity in the O.T.

Honest question: Name me one good lesson from the OT. I read it a couple of times when I was younger, because it was so perverse and gruesome and I wasn't really allowed to read other books of the same genre. And don't trot out the story about King Solomon's wisdom.

 

[Paulhoff]

For a book that is about a so-called ALL KNOWING god, it only shows how un-knowing he was, time and time again. And how does he fix things, he KILLS or has people kill for him.

Paul



And "was" is the right word, that god is dead.

 

[bikerdruid]

And "was" is the right word, that god is dead.

amen.

 

[ncdrawl]

Without clarity the courageous man just ran off a cliff.

i'm still here. instead of clever little turns of phrase, how about pointing out what you do not agree with and tell me why?

 

[edge]

i'm still here. instead of clever little turns of phrase, how about pointing out what you do not agree with and tell me why?

That's probably all you'll get from him.
That and a yellow marker.

 

[edge]

Edge, I'm joining this thread late, so perhaps I missed some reference to this in an earlier post. However, it seems to me that this is the first time you've mentioned formerly being an atheist. So what happened? Did you have a dramatic conversion experience or what?

I have mentioned it before but not in this thread.
I have about 300 pages of what I witnessed and where.
That would be irrelevant to this thread and off topic, not that I mind going off topic but I love it when you do, to prove a point, and not you particularly.


It took time.

 

[Paulhoff]

I have mentioned it before but not in this thread.
I have about 300 pages of what I witnessed and where.
That would be irrelevant to this thread and off topic, not that I mind going off topic but I love it when you do, to prove a point, and not you particularly.


It took time.

Witnessed, like tell us one thing Edge.

Just because you can't answer something doesn't mean one has to make up something right away. I for one have waited decades for the right answers to my questions, and I'm still waiting for other questions to be answered with real answers.

Paul

 

[edge]

And it's still part of the Christian bible.
I've tried thinking about it, but it honestly makes no sense. There's no reward and punishment in the universe.
What exactly are the rewards and punishments meted out by the universe? If our planet gets hit by a giant asteroid, it's not cosmic punishment.
You keep saying this. It's not true. There is no creator.

Honest question: Name me one good lesson from the OT. I read it a couple of times when I was younger, because it was so perverse and gruesome and I wasn't really allowed to read other books of the same genre. And don't trot out the story about King Solomon's wisdom.

So what do you call it a cosmic blessing?

Name me one good lesson from the OT

How about the three guys that walked out of the fire.

12There are certain Jews whom thou hast set over the affairs of the province of Babylon, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego; these men, O king, have not regarded thee: they serve not thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

13Then Nebuchadnezzar in his rage and fury commanded to bring Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Then they brought these men before the king.

14Nebuchadnezzar spake and said unto them, Is it true, O Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, do not ye serve my gods, nor worship the golden image which I have set up?

15Now if ye be ready that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the image which I have made; well: but if ye worship not, ye shall be cast the same hour into the midst of a burning fiery furnace; and who is that God that shall deliver you out of my hands?

16Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.

17If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.

18But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

19Then was Nebuchadnezzar full of fury, and the form of his visage was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego: therefore he spake, and commanded that they should heat the furnace one seven times more than it was wont to be heated.

20And he commanded the most mighty men that were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and to cast them into the burning fiery furnace.

21Then these men were bound in their coats, their hosen, and their hats, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.

22Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flames of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.

23And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.

24Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonished, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.

25He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

26Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire.

27And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.

28Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.

29Therefore I make a decree, That every people, nation, and language, which speak any thing amiss against the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, shall be cut in pieces, and their houses shall be made a dunghill: because there is no other God that can deliver after this sort.

30Then the king promoted Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, in the province of Babylon.

read all of it then get back to me.
from: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel+3&version=KJV

There's more, read it all and the bible it's self.