The Best Movies You've Never Seen

[RobRoy]

In my opinion. I think you're overanalyzing the simple premise of that film. And also disagree: Noir has femme fatale. That is as much a part of the mix as horses and holsters are a part of a Western. And by femme fatale . . . [snip]

I'm going to assume that your definition was provided for the viewers at home, since I provided clearly noir titles to support my statement in counter to your own. I see you've avoided dealing with the titles that I provided, so I'm not exactly certain what you're trying to prove at this point. Feel free to go back and see what I offered as evidence. I provided several examples of clearly noir films that did not have a femme fatale and can provide more. In summary, the character achetype is not necessary for a film to be considered noir. It certainly helps, and is found more often then not, but it isn't a requirement.

Unforgiven was really only about a man desperately trying to escape his past - the monstrosity he was back then. [snip]

None of this precludes Unforgiven from being a western-noir. In fact, it's all quite in line with a noir.

However, I think you're oversimplifying the themes of Unforgiven by quite a bit. Munny wasn't righting a wrong done to a woman, he was trying to get money to help turn his life, and that of his children, around from his failing farm. He ends up "righting a wrong" but not one done to Delilah, rather that done to him and his friend, Ned Logan (Morgan Freeman's character), as well as confronting another not-so-nice-guy form of abuse in Little Bill (Gene Hackman). There are absolutely no heroes in this story. Munny does what he does for reasons we can understand, but Little Bill was not necessarily in the wrong in trying to protect his town and the towns people from men like Munny. The initial "seemingly trivial " event of the cowboy cutting up Delilah isn't trivial either, as it reflects all kinds of injustice on all kinds of levels, not the least of which was the retribution the whores were seeking for the wrong done to one of their own.

 

[Vanda]

Nope, I think you're stretching things a bit there on "noiring" the Western, Unforgiven, good sir RobRoy. In my opinion. I think you're overanalyzing the simple premise of that film. And also disagree: Noir has femme fatale. That is as much a part of the mix as horses and holsters are a part of a Western. And by femme fatale, we mean that the male victim doesn't see it coming - or does, but the power of femme attraction is simply too overwhelming. He throws his hat and his caution into the ring, and at least some of his principles out. Read James M. Cain's The Postman Always Rings Twice or Double Indemnity and you'll see what I mean. And the movie adaptations are pretty faithful. That's boilerplate film noir.

Unforgiven was really only about a man desperately trying to escape his past - the monstrosity he was back then. But his support system fails - mostly driven by the death of his savior wife - and he is inexorably drawn right back into his own nightmarish mindset. The one he thought he'd left behind forever. And the irony in that film is the circumstance: righting the dishonor done a woman. That is authentic. What seems so trivial to us now was pure matter of life and death during the post-Civil War Old West. I discovered that in my own research, and in fact my Western unfolds - the beginning, that is - in much the same way as Unforgiven. Something seemingly trivial starts the whole ball rolling...

Conspiraider, your comments on the noir-style are right in line with the way I think about it, and I usually think in terms of a “boilerplate” noir as you mentioned, but I also agree that noir is often broadly defined from person to person.

I think the list RobRoy gave can be said to have noir-like aspects, and my post wasn’t trying to say noiry westerns hadn’t been made before. Red Rock West and Blood Simple are often considered to be “western” noir films, but I was really thinking more about something with a clear noir agenda, and not just in a western setting with modern-day people who “act” like cowboys, but with a real cowboy anti-hero, noiring it up big-time inside a cool, twisty thriller.

I saw Brick and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I loved the standard noir scene in which the anti-hero/detective is dressed down or warned usually by another detective that grudgingly respects him, in this case between the student and the principal.

 

[RobRoy]

I saw Brick and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I loved the standard noir scene in which the anti-hero/detective is dressed down or warned usually by another detective that grudgingly respects him, in this case between the student and the principal.

That was a brilliant scene, one of many.

My wife and I were watching this film together, and as soon as Laura (the lovely Nora Zahetner) appeared, I said, "Uh-oh, she's trouble." My wife said, "How do you know." I replied, "Because that's how these stories work. The pretty girl, in-the-know, is always trouble and can't be trusted."

 

[ConspiRaider]

None of this precludes Unforgiven from being a western-noir. In fact, it's all quite in line with a noir.

However, I think you're oversimplifying the themes of Unforgiven by quite a bit. Munny wasn't righting a wrong done to a woman, he was trying to get money to help turn his life, and that of his children, around from his failing farm. He ends up "righting a wrong" but not one done to Delilah, rather that done to him and his friend, Ned Logan (Morgan Freeman's character), as well as confronting another not-so-nice-guy form of abuse in Little Bill (Gene Hackman). There are absolutely no heroes in this story. Munny does what he does for reasons we can understand, but Little Bill was not necessarily in the wrong in trying to protect his town and the towns people from men like Munny. The initial "seemingly trivial " event of the cowboy cutting up Delilah isn't trivial either, as it reflects all kinds of injustice on all kinds of levels, not the least of which was the retribution the whores were seeking for the wrong done to one of their own.

It's just a Western there, RobRoy. Leave it at that. What's this "noir" suffix's purpose anyway? To confuse? Unforgiven is a Western genre film. No noir. Unless you agree that the term "noir" has been overused to such an extent as to render it completely meaningless.

Yes - the initial event IS trivial - or didn't you watch the same movie I did? A prostitute impulsively laughs at the size of a man's johnson. And that is it. If she doesn't laugh - there is no domino effect. Otherwise he finishes, he pays, he leaves. End of story. But she DID laugh. That's seemingly trivial. Yet there is a very tiny barbed hook associated with that "giggle" (as Strawberry Alice called it). You never quite know how a man will react to that insult, even if it's unintentional or absent of malice. And this guy reacted - unluckily for him - angrily and impulsively.

Munny WAS involved in this - partly - to right this wrong done a woman. I think it was certainly a convenient justification. Money yes - but he could have just as easily robbed a bank or train or two. Observe the nonchalance of various characters as they discuss the retribution owed the woman for having her face cut up. The pimp isn't surprised that the girls are working to create a reward. Hackman isn't surprised. He's worried - but not surprised. It's Old West, and there are certain things you just can't do to a woman even if she's a whore. Including cutting her face. And of course we have that other dynamic working in the Old West - tall taling. The exaggeration of how badly she was cut up, how it got more serious each time retold. Well, we certainly know about tall taling. Wyatt Earp built his legend on that dynamic. So did dozens of others - Calamity Jane, Billy The Kid, Wild Bill Hickok, the Daltons, James gang, Cole-Younger gang and so forth.

What we're seeing in Unforgiven is the conflicting sides of people - their contradictory natures. We're like that, all of us. Nothing noir about this, from how I view folks. Munny's become a decent family man - but he's going to risk his gains by gunning for two cowboys who dishonored a woman. Little Bill wants peace and quiet in his town, he's building his house, won't have guns being toted about, doesn't want violence. But he nearly kicks two men to death, whips another to death and appears to enjoy these activities on certain levels. Similar to Munny - deep down, these two men really have NOT changed nearly enough. That tough gristle is still there, driving them. They've merely papered over their roughshod natures. English Bob changes from an arrogant showoff to a whimpering, griping and thoroughly beaten man. The biographer gets the real lowdown on these dangerous men at point-blank range, rather than via the tall taling of English Bob. Flowery arrogance out the window. And so forth.

Still - we're talking about a Western. Unless you're just translating "noir" to mean "dark"? So many films are dark that I suppose we should just hook "noir" onto the end of everything. But "film noir" - that's a distinctive genre with some hard boundaries. "Noiring" everything, to me, dilutes that impression left by a good "film noir" flickerino.

 

[RobRoy]

It's just a Western there, RobRoy. Leave it at that. What's this "noir" suffix's purpose anyway? To confuse? Unforgiven is a Western genre film. No noir. Unless you agree that the term "noir" has been overused to such an extent as to render it completely meaningless.

If you say so. I've offered my arguments and counters, which you apparently don't want to address, and that's fine. It was nice of you to drop the whole femme fatale notion though. That's appreciated.

So at this point, we'll just have to do that lame "agree to disagree" thing.

Thanks for playing!