The 9/11 Conspiracy Facts

Okay, bring on the facts, so far there have been zero facts and evidence that support any of your conclusions which are hard to figure out in the first place.

Waiting for the flood of facts, hope you have more than Charlie Sheen. Facts?

It has been a long time since someone has wanted to debate the facts, but as usual, there are no facts brought to the debate, just talk and false information that do not support the conclusions that are veiled behind empty rhetoric of mushy ideas on PNAC? I was looking for the army that PNAC had to start this new PH stuff (BTW, PH was a surprise attack, yes we already knew that Japan was out and about and going to go nuts, but we had our pants down on Sunday the 7th, too bad people like you were not there to save us) still looking, all I found was Dick's shotgun, but his wife took it away from him when he tried to kill his friend who looks a lot like a dove when you drop your glasses and turn to shoot something. If you could hook me up with some facts about this vast NWO PNAC army of black ops who wired the WTC, flew planes into buildings and faked DNA stuff all over the USA I would be eternally thankful.

Are you a Branch Davidian, or just some tax evading young kids who did not listen in class. Who makes up this tripe and does your mom know you will not be graduating with honors? I found if you take geometry, algebra, calculus, and differential equations you will not fall for a lot of BS like that from the 9/11 truth movement. It helps if you pass those classes too. But there are many who know how to think and use facts and evidence to come to conclusions which resemble reality unlike any attempts by the really challenge 9/11 truth movement. Many are posting here, some much smarter than all the PhDs and experts of the entire truth movement combined on 9/11 topics. Lay people who write better, think better, are better than the entire 9/11 truth movement on 9/11. That excludes me, I can barely keep up with those who debunk you with one finger.

As I was typing, it came to mind, I have no idea what your conclusion are on 9/11 and after reading the entire thread I still am baffled to figure what the heck you stand for except poor research and the inability to provide support for what ever you say your conclusions are.

Anyone have a clue what you are up to? I did see PNAC, but as I said with out an small army of thousands, PNAC only had Dick's shotgun as a weapon and that has been remedied. What do you have and what supports it?
Ok, sorry, but I have little idea of what on earth you are talking about. Err... my advice to you would be to read some of my lengthier posts, including the response to the loose change guide section, and see how it establishes that pnac state a new PH would be propitious to policy.

Oh, and as for being debunked by someone's little finger... You have apparently been hallucinating for a little while, but this hasnt happened, and though I am open to such, I dont think it will.
 
It's been a very dry year here in Los Angeles - driest on record - and I was being overly cautious, I'll admit. Last thing we need is raging wildfires out here.

I predicted (correctly, once again) that if mighty JREF forumiters persisted in their relentlessly logical activities, you would be flamed to a degree that no one could have possibly imagined. And as you see, it's happened. You're now toast.

So I was looking out for you, buddy, and the surrounding topography. You should be thanking me.

P.S. Once the L.A. County fire officials assured me that there was plenty of water and flame retardant on hand to deal with any emergency, I must confess to rather enjoying being a witness to the destruction of your "arguments". Although sometimes it was so brutal that even I had to look away. I mean after all we are not complete barbarians.
Another really odd post.

What the hell are you talking about?
 
Remember Mrs. Smith the brake mechanic. She has covert capacity. But you already knew that so you ignored it.
Right, so Mrs Smith now has the ability to cut the brakes of a random car that she knows will be driving past that intersection, without the driver knowing.

I think its best to stick to the facts, this is a tad hopeless.
 
. . . Was their ever any official change in naming procedures? From what I recall, in the years before and including WWII, naming ships was fairly straightforward: battleships were named after states, aircraft carriers named after battles, cruisers named after cities, and destroyers named after persons.


I'm not certain that the conventions have ever been officially codified. Congress has the power to name any ship for which funds are appropriated (by specifying the name in the appropriations bill), but this prerogative is practically never exercised. Since the US Navy began assigning ships hull numbers near the end of the 19th century, there have been numerous exceptions to and anomalies in the naming conventions, and occasional major revisions.

For example, every battleship ever laid down has been named for a US state--with one exception. During the American Civil War, the screw sloop USS Kearsarge became famous for sinking the notorious Confederate raider Alabama. In 1894 Kearsarge was wrecked on a reef, and attempts to salvage her proved unsuccessful. Congress therefore directed that Battleship 5 (later BB-5) should be named for her.

Cruisers were always named for American cities, except that one war-construction cruiser was renamed Canberra in honor of HMAS Canberra, which was sunk along with four US Navy cruisers at the Battle of Savo Island. (I've seen a joke that says she should have been named USS Oops! Sorry! because Canberra was sunk by US torpedoes, but this allegation is unproven.)

Aircraft carrier names have always been a mixed bag. CV-1, a converted collier, was named Langley in honor of an American aviation pioneer. CV-2 and CV-3 were originally laid down as battlecruisers, and after conversion they retained their names Lexington and Saratoga, respectively. (Oddly enough, the four scrapped battlecruisers were not to have been named for battles; rather for famous American warships from the age of fighting sail). For some reason, the decision was taken to continue the sailing-ship name tradition, resulting in Ranger, Enterprise, Wasp, and Hornet. Yorktown for some reason followed the American Revolutionary war battle convention.

During World War II, in addition to those named for previously lost carriers, both the battle (Bunker Hill, Antietam, Cowpens, and pre-steam (Essex, Bonhomme Richard, Intrepid) conventions were used, plus the Founding Father (Franklin, Hancock) convention was added. And one CVL was named the Wright (presumably to make up for the slight delivered in the naming of CV-1 :D ) Finally, one carrier was named Shangri-La, after the fictional Asian mountain paradise in the novel Lost Horizon, after FDR joked that Doolittle's Tokyo raid had been launched from there. :D

Upon the death of FDR, one of the new Midway class supercarriers was named in his honor. The next class of carriers was named for Secretary of the Navy (later Secretary of Defense) James Forrestal, who committed suicide while in office (presumably due to the stress of political infighting and of unifying the armed forces). Other postwar carriers included Ranger, Saratoga, and Enterprise (honoring their WWII namesakes), America, Kittyhawk (really making it up to the Wright Brothers :D), and Constellation (fighting sail). The last pre-Nimitz class carrier, a modified Kittyhawk class, was named in honor of John F. Kennedy.

The first major convention change was naming ballistic-missile submarines for famous Americans (and honorary Americans). After all battleships were retired from active service, first nuclear-powered guided-missile cruisers, and then ballistic-missile submarines, began to be named for states. The Los Angeles class attack submarine broke the longstanding convention of naming submarines after marine life. Admiral Hyman Rickover is alleged to have given the reason for this as "Fish don't vote." Finally, cruisers are now being named for battles, rather than cities or states.
 
No, that's not quite right. That 66% is so large, principally because there is such a large contingent within it that does believe in gov complicity, which relates to my point.


Well, there are certainly some that believe in gov complicity, so without them, the 66% would be smaller. But you haven't shown any evidence for any particular percentage believing in gov complicity, let alone a majority of the 66%. Which makes representing the 66% as indicative of the popularity of the "complicity" viewpoint dishonest.

Compare:

"92% of Americans believe in some form of supreme god. The 92% is so large principally because there is such a large contingent of Flying Spaghetti Monster believers in it. Therefore the 92% figure shows the enormous popularity of Flying Spaghetti Monster belief in the U.S."

But this is true precisely the other way around. Danny Bonaduce, Fox News, Troy Sexton and others have been guilty of precisely the same inflammatory garbage as the CTers. Very little difference. Even I have been told "I hope you burn in hell" and other such comments by members of this forum, some of whom are on this thread. And in terms of rational discussion, well, as you can see from the corresponding thread on the SLC, the OTers I have run into, have zero regard for facts, and zero regard for logic and common sense, and zero regard for evident conclusions when they get reached. So my patience is pretty thin too with the OTers, don't forget the principal of universality here my friend.


I'm familiar with the concent of Universality in Computing Theory, but I don't thing that's the "principal [sic] of universality" you're referring to. Care to explain this principal?

Also, don't confuse respect and cordiality with friendship.

Ok, well, we're debating PNAC now to illustrate that a mass terror attack on US soil was deemed useful to policy, in order, parenthetically, to catalyse a series of military radicalisations now known as the WOT, known back then as RAD.


Okay. Let's start with, what does the "C" in "PNAC" stand for?

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
Right, so Mrs Smith now has the ability to cut the brakes of a random car that she knows will be driving past that intersection, without the driver knowing.

I think its best to stick to the facts, this is a tad hopeless.

For your argument maybe. Just as likely as PNAC

Wow, that is a fantastic argument! What a bright soul you are. A credit to your movement, that much is true.

What movement? We do this for fun remember. A hobby.
 
You call yourself a debunker? You failed to show a 33% increase in any of those years.


Oh, no--the great Gravy has cast aspersions on my debunking skills--oh, the shame of it all! :o I feel like Tom Cruise when Stan says he's just an "okay" actor. :cry1 I'm going to stay in this closet, and I'm not coming out--not ever. :boxedin:


:p
 
Alright! We finally have someone who addresses the pointt I have made. Not bad after ~270 posts. Ok

And even if it DID say what you say it says, it still wouldn't be related to 9/11. I'm still waiting on that.

This has been dealt with, look above

You keep repeating this stuff, even though the same paragraph that contains the Pearl Harbour quote in the PNAC document ends with this:

It is quite clear the authors are content with a long process of change. The only question is when will this long process will get under way, hence the desirabilty of meeting the 2001 QDR deadline.

No, there is a difference here. They are stating as to how a change will occur over a long period of time; this does not mean that they do not want it achieved over a shorter one. Think- what is the alternative to what you are saying, that they state "This will be long absent a new PH... so we better start planning one!" No. They are not that dumb. So to say that they are content with it happening over a long period of time, due to the fact that they talk about how it would happen over such a period, overlooks the fact that practically speaking, they have no alternative, as well as paying zero attention to the fact that they may be more content with it happening over a shorter period.

Incidentally, you have forgotten the important point of what is the raison d'etre of PNAC? You can hazard a guess from their name; thus the idea that they would want such a hegemonic transformation to occur early in the century is 100% congruous with their raison d'etre; the opposite is 100% incongruous.

So, to reframe your point, the question is when will the process get underway. Ideally, it will happen after a new PH, since this will catalyse the policies set out in the doc. Absent 911, it would have been pretty tough to get some of the changes that have come about

You then go on to say that they needed to crystalise the changes in the mind of the POTUS before the presentation of the QDR in October 2001 and that the need for these changes to be impressed on the new government. Do you not think that the gentlemen of PNAC had access to to GW Bush before he was elected? What makes you so sure Bush wasn't on board with this from the get go? I'm sure you also know a number of signatories to the PNAC document were members of the new government, right? The preparation of the QDR began almost immediately President Bush took office. What makes you think that the Bush administration would have a problem getting the QDR approved by Congress? On June 28th 2001, Rumsfeld appeared before the House Armed Services Commitee seeking a very large budget increase for the fiscal year 2002. He appears to have been well received. Added to this is the fact that the Republicans had a majority in Congress. Can you provide any evidence that QDR spending plans would not have been approved but for the events of 9/11?

It is not strictly a case of crystalising it in the mind of Bush, but, as i said, of crystallising it in the minds of the decision makers. This is what will allow the radicalisation outlined best to occur. This is what happened. Let's have a look.

It would be instructive, in determining the tone of the QDR, to read the foreword. This will show us what elements are key to it (I would love to post it all, please read it here http://www.d-n-i.net/fcs/pdf/qdr_2001.pdf , just the 1st few paras for now):

On September 11, 2001, the United States came under vicious,
bloody attack. Americans died in their places of work. They died
on American soil. They died not as combatants, but as innocent
victims. They died not from traditional armies waging traditional
campaigns, but from the brutal, faceless weapons of terror. They died as
the victims of war - a war that many had feared but whose sheer horror
took America by surprise.
The war the nation fights today is not a war of America's choosing. It is a
war that was brought violently and brutally to America's shores by the evil
forces of terror. It is a war against America and America's way of life. It is
a war against all that America holds dear. It is a war against freedom itself.
The attack on the United States and the war that has been visited upon us
highlights a fundamental condition of our circumstances: we cannot and
will not know precisely where and when America's interests will be
threatened, when America will come under attack, or when Americans
might die as the result of aggression. We can be clear about trends, but
uncertain about events. We can identify threats, but cannot know when
or where America or its friends will be attacked. We should try mightily to
avoid surprise, but we must also learn to expect it. We must constantly
strive to get better intelligence, but we must also remember that there will
always be gaps in our intelligence. Adapting to surprise - adapting quickly
and decisively - must therefore be a condition of planning.

So we can see very clearly, that what happened was precisely what PNAC designed. Yes there were plans for budget increases, but, the fact is that defense posture was coloured inexorably by the new PH, just as PNAC had stated.

If you want to find out more, please read my rebuttal of the loosechange guide, there is more detail there.

In short, we are left where we started with- a new PH would be propitious to policy, since it would catalyse a chain of radicalisations, as outlined by PNAC, starting with the 2001 QDR, and allow them to happen in years rather than decades.
 
Well, there are certainly some that believe in gov complicity, so without them, the 66% would be smaller. But you haven't shown any evidence for any particular percentage believing in gov complicity, let alone a majority of the 66%. Which makes representing the 66% as indicative of the popularity of the "complicity" viewpoint dishonest.

Compare:

"92% of Americans believe in some form of supreme god. The 92% is so large principally because there is such a large contingent of Flying Spaghetti Monster believers in it. Therefore the 92% figure shows the enormous popularity of Flying Spaghetti Monster belief in the U.S."

The old flying spaghettie monster. But no- the poll i posted was a tad erroneous, since it only deals with NYers, but in any case illustrates my point. I am not sure whether "66% of New Yorkers" refers to citizens or residents, but of the citizens it is 41%, and of the res, 49%, believeing "some of our leaders "knew in advance that attacks were planned on or around September 11, 2001, and that they consciously failed to act,". So this illustrates what I am saying quite well.
http://www.zogby.com/search/ReadNews.dbm?ID=855

I'm familiar with the concent of Universality in Computing Theory, but I don't thing that's the "principal [sic] of universality" you're referring to. Care to explain this principal?

It means applying the same values to others as you do to yourself.

Also, don't confuse respect and cordiality with friendship.

Err... it's a figure of speech, don't get nervous now...

Okay. Let's start with, what does the "C" in "PNAC" stand for?

Respectfully,
Myriad

This has been dealt with numerous times here, and it could not prove the CT point much better. Their aim is to create, militarily, a platform from which US hegemony can thrive, thus making the 21st the American Century. Hence it is all the more crucial for the transformations which will create this platform, to be executed quickly. It will be not good, or less for their stated aims, for them to be ready by 2050.

This should be pretty clear.
 
In short, we are left where we started with- a new PH would be propitious to policy, since it would catalyse a chain of radicalisations, as outlined by PNAC, starting with the 2001 QDR, and allow them to happen in years rather than decades........

........And has absolutely nothing to do with an inside job

I fixed that for you. Your welcome
 
Right, so Mrs Smith now has the ability to cut the brakes of a random car that she knows will be driving past that intersection, without the driver knowing.

I think its best to stick to the facts, this is a tad hopeless.
Speaking of facts:

It's obvious you're not an American and yet you feel so eminently qualified to post your vast foolishness on what ensued over here in the States on 9/11, and before.

Didja ever bring your butt over here to conduct any onsite investigations or interviews or hands-on studies in your quest to overturn the generally-accepted conclusions on the run of events for that day? Or do you just sit in your British Commonwealth comfy chair and "innernet" your way into these absurd claims of yours?

Facts! Get 'em while they're hot! They're over here in the United States of America! If you can't bring the facts to where you are at, then bring yourself to the facts!
 
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Speaking of facts:

It's obvious you're not an American and yet you feel so eminently qualified to post your vast foolishness on what ensued over here in the States on 9/11, and before.

Didja ever bring your butt over here to conduct any onsite investigations or interviews or hands-on studies in your quest to overturn the generally-accepted conclusions on the run of events for that day? Or do you just sit in your British Commonwealth comfy chair and "innernet" your way into these absurd claims of yours?

Facts! Get 'em while they're hot! They're over here in the United States of America!
Actually, methinks P'duh is back again...
 
Errr... other than PH was a terror attack on US soil by foreigners killing thousands of US, burned on the public;s mind, that catalysed the US into drastic military action. Remind you of something?
Hmmm, Pearl Harbor plunged the U.S. into WWII which resulted in the converting of the entire American economy into a war footing, with rationing, car assembly lines turned over into producing war material, wage and price controls, a draft, transportation restricted mostly to that needed for the war effort, just to name a few of the repercussions. The general populace was asked to sacrifice in the name of the war effort; it was a truly national endeavour.

Now, have there been any repercussions in the U.S. in the aftermath of 9/11 that even remotely approach any of those? Is there a draft? No. Has the economy been converted over to war production? No. Is there rationing of food and fuel and other resources? No. Are there wage and price controls? No. Is transportation restricted mostly to only that necessary for the war effort? No.

Indeed, outside of those serving in military units in Iraq and their families back home, the average American isn't being asked to sacrifice anything for the war in Iraq. The average citizen wouldn't know there's a war on at all if they didn't turn on the news or read the newspaper.

Seems to me the situations are nowhere near as analogous are you made them out to be.
 
Alright! We finally have someone who addresses the pointt I have made. Not bad after ~270 posts. Ok
Wait: I addressed your point. You said the neocons published a plan to murder thousands of Americans, and I treated that statement as the 100% batpoo-insane, howler monkeyism that it is.

Give credit where credit is due, please.
 
Hmmm, Pearl Harbor plunged the U.S. into WWII which resulted in the converting of the entire American economy into a war footing, with rationing, car assembly lines turned over into producing war material, wage and price controls, a draft, transportation restricted mostly to that needed for the war effort, just to name a few of the repercussions. The general populace was asked to sacrifice in the name of the war effort; it was a truly national endeavour.

Now, have there been any repercussions in the U.S. in the aftermath of 9/11 that even remotely approach any of those? Is there a draft? No. Has the economy been converted over to war production? No. Is there rationing of food and fuel and other resources? No. Are there wage and price controls? No. Is transportation restricted mostly to only that necessary for the war effort? No.

Indeed, outside of those serving in military units in Iraq and their families back home, the average American isn't being asked to sacrifice anything for the war in Iraq. The average citizen wouldn't know there's a war on at all if they didn't turn on the news or read the newspaper.

Seems to me the situations are nowhere near as analogous are you made them out to be.
Good stuff.

To be fair, I think he sees Pearl Harbor and 9/11 as analogous because they each had planes and explosions. What more does one need? :boggled:
 
No, there is a difference here. They are stating as to how a change will occur over a long period of time; this does not mean that they do not want it achieved over a shorter one.


Nowhere does it say they do want it achieved over a shorter one. Your point is simply assumption without evidence, your opinion, nothing more.
 
Oh, no--the great Gravy has cast aspersions on my debunking skills--oh, the shame of it all! :o I feel like Tom Cruise when Stan says he's just an "okay" actor. :cry1 I'm going to stay in this closet, and I'm not coming out--not ever. :boxedin:


:p

Spitfire's in the closet...
And he won't come out...
Why is he in the closet...
SO I PULL OUT MY GUN!
 

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