The 9/11 Conspiracy Facts

Please read the post to which you are referring before you post, it will save you and others a lot of time.

The original point was that the OBL offer was pointless since trying him in an Islamic country (if that was indeed the offer) is going to go his way, since muslims hate the US, according to Dave Rogers (?). I disputed this, ~#1200.

Oh, and I am a Muslim.

So what? I am Christian, so what? I have friends who are Muslim; they reject totally the ideas of Al Qaeda. If you are inducing this statement in anyway to imply that I am racist or in anyway made a racist remark, I want an apology from you, I have not. If you believe I have then point it out. I have made all the effort I can you understand the concerns of the Muslim community in the UK, a country which makes every effort to integrate foreign nationals, differant faiths and cultures into society. I don't care whether you are Muslim or not, I care for the fact you are trying accuses innocent people of being involved in mass murder. I condemn outright atrocities and acts of violence irrespective of the faith of the individuals involved.


I have done the research and by enlarge the vast majority of Muslims reject Al Qaeda.
They are not being framed, they did it. They were just assisted.

This should not be hard to understand.

Back to the nub of the topic. Assisted by whom? Are now seriously suggesting that America would willingly assist people who had declared war on then back in 1998 and that this assistance would go unnoticed by these people? That Al Qaeda who hate America would be totally oblivious to being assisted and would be for the last five years?

And keeep quiet about it ?
 
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This is slightly tangential , but having just watched "La vita e bella", I feel I should state this-

Isnt it funny how in the 30's, German scientists, government scientists, all believed for real, that Aryans were the superior race. Examining quantitative data, they came to the same conclusions as their government. Ditto the roles of other leading, what one would have thought to have been , independent voices; much of clergy, academia etc. All sold to the Nazi ideals. I have touched on this before, and will do again, but it is something to think about perhaps.
The Hitler Card

Alias: Argumentum ad Nazium

Type: Guilt by Association
Example:

[T]he ideas of ecologists about invasive species—alien species as they are often called—sound…similar to anti-immigration rhetoric. Green themes like scarcity and purity and invasion and protection all have right-wing echoes. Hitler's ideas about environmentalism came out of purity, after all.​
Source: Interview of Betsy Hartmann by Fred Pearce, "The Greening of Hate", New Scientist, 2/20/2003 FormsAdolf Hitler accepted idea I.
Therefore, I must be wrong.The Nazis accepted idea I.
Therefore, I must be wrong.ExamplesHitler was in favor of euthanasia.
Therefore, euthanasia is wrong.The Nazis favored eugenics.
Therefore, eugenics is wrong.Counter-ExamplesHitler was a vegetarian.
Therefore, vegetarianism is wrong.The Nazis were conservationists.
Therefore, conservationism is wrong.Exposition:


In almost every heated debate, one side or the other—often both—plays the "Hitler card", that is, criticizes their opponent's position by associating it in some way with Adolf Hitler or the Nazis in general. No one wants to be associated with Nazism because it has been so thoroughly discredited in both theory and practise, and Hitler of course was its most famous exponent. So, linking an idea with Hitler or Nazism has become a common form of argument ascribing guilt by association.
Some instances of the Hitler card are factually incorrect, or even ludicrous, in ascribing ideas to Hitler or other Nazis that they did not hold. However, from a logical point of view, even if Hitler or other Nazis did accept an idea, this historical fact alone is insufficient to discredit it.
The Hitler Card is often combined with other fallacies, for instance, a weak analogy between an opponent and Hitler, or between the opposition political group and the Nazis. A related form of fallacious analogy is that which compares an opposition's actions with the Holocaust. This is a form of the ad Nazium fallacy because it casts the opposition in the role of Nazi. Not only do such arguments assign guilt by association, but the analogy used to link the opposition's actions with the Holocaust may be superficial or question-begging.
Other arguments ad Nazium combine guilt by association with a slippery slope. For instance, it is sometimes argued that the Nazis practised euthanasia, and therefore even voluntary forms of it are a first step onto a slippery slope leading to extermination camps. Like many slippery slope arguments, this is a way of avoiding arguing directly against voluntary euthanasia, instead claiming that it may indirectly lead to something admittedly bad.
Playing the Hitler Card demonizes opponents in debate by associating them with evil, and almost always derails the discussion. People naturally resent being associated with Nazism, and are usually angered. In this way, playing the Hitler Card can be an effective distraction in a debate, causing the opponent to lose track of the argument. However, when people become convinced by guilt by association arguments that their political opponents are not just mistaken, but are as evil as Nazis, reasoned debate can give way to violence. So, playing the Hitler Card is more than just a dirty trick in debate, it is often "fighting words". Exposure:


Germany today bans capital punishment, but the history of this ban is surprising: The government of the former West Germany adopted the ban in 1949 and it continues in effect today in the reunited Germany. The law which banned the death penalty was proposed by a politician sympathetic to the Nazi war criminals who were being executed after World War 2, and was intended to block such executions. Should the disreputable historical origins of the ban influence those Germans who today oppose capital punishment to reconsider their views? Should the ban be repealed simply because it was the brainchild of a Nazi sympathizer? Capital punishment is either right or wrong. If it is right, then the ban should be repealed, regardless of its origins; if it's wrong, then the ban should be continued, despite its origins. While the history of the origins of Germany's ban on capital punishment is interesting, it is irrelevant to the moral and legal question of whether the ban should continue. Those Germans who support capital punishment should resist the temptation to play the Hitler card. Source:


Charles Lane, "The Paradoxes of a Death Penalty Stance", Washington Post, 6/4/2005 Resources:

Acknowledgments:

Thanks to Michael Koplow for the example. The poster for Charlie Chaplin's "The Great Dictator" is available from AllPosters.
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/adnazium.html
 
whoever is meant to.

If u cant afford to, you do what you can.

Your evasion has been noted by all.

To state that something is wrong because you think it is is worthless.

Conversely, to state that something is right because you think it is is worthless. And that's all you've been doing here with your assessment of the 'Pearl Harbor' statement.

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People who post hundreds/thousands of times on a topic, and then when it gets challenged refuse to post/evade responses/refuse to answer points, and then still maintain their "opinion", yes, they are neither intelleigent nor effectively educated. Hence, in part, the c word.

mjd1982, do you not realize that this is the exact approach that you are taking?

I havent. Its a debate.

A debate over your opinions, speculations and conjecture. Certainly not a debate over facts.

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A perfect example of an accusation with zero substance. I have taken a phrase, and taken it one step further to its logical conclusion. Pretty much everyone here has refused to debate this to conclusion. Were someone to do this, maybe I would stop my "clinging". I doubt this wil happen.

You see right there, mjd1982, you even admit that you are basing your argument solely upon your interpretation of it. Several others here have pointed out to you that, based upon their own interpretation of your so-called 'smoking-gun Pearl Harbor' snippet the document actually states the diametric opposite of your interpretation.

Somehow I also doubt you'll stop your clinging.
 
Good. So you are stating that in the example I have listed, the comment is worthless as an indicator of intent? Yes or no please.

The example you uses does not call for speculation. You state "if we can kill" not "if he was killed" therefore it is not an valid example. To ask me to say if it is a worthless indicator, yes or no, is a strawman. It is the same as if I ask you if you have stopped beating your wife, yes or no please?
 
This has been dealt with time and time again. 1stly, I said nothing was done by Bush et al in response to the terror warnings. This is stated by the 911 Comm. Please don't ask me to prove that they are not lying.

2ndly, you do not appear to know what a PDB is. Every weekday morning, the president and some principals meet with the DCI (Director of Central Intelligence), who triangulates the most important intel for them to hear. ~30 weeks b4 911, and 40 warnings. I.e. he was told more than once every 4 days that AQ were planning an attack on US interests; zero follow up. These warnings were "unprecedented" in their scale, according to Tenet.

So let me get this straight they should have been able to determine exactly how to foil the 9/11 plotters based on being told that "AQ were planning an attack on US interests" with no other information? Well, being able to carry that statement to the next logical conclusion that therefore 19 arab men were planning on highjacking planes on 9/11 would have certainly been propitous, wouldn't it? The fact is "AQ were planning an attack on US interests" is a next to meaningless piece of information. To use the bank robbing analogy from earlier it isn't even as detailed as someone is planning on robbing a bank in Chicago. It is more like if I told you someone is going to do something to a bank that has some connection to US interests. How should they have reacted, put extra security on every US interest in the world? Even if you say that highjacking a plane was included in the threat, do they put extra security at every airport in the world? Maybe we should have shut down airtravel world wide until the end of time. Just tell me what COULD they have done without knowing more than "AQ were planning an attack on US interests" that doesn't require hindsight? I can confidently say that even now AQ is still planning an attack on US interests, what should we be doing to stop this next attack?
 
An astonishingly bad post, and perfectly reflective of the evasion of elementary reasoning that would normally come naturally, were this position not so mired in denial and self deception.

There is a difference between and assumption and an interpretation. I am taking this comment, which is the only statement in the doc regarding "How, soon", and interpreted it, reaching a pretty robust conclusion as evinced by the 3 statements above. If you wish to differ with these conclusions, it is completely worthless to state "Its an interpretation/assumption" unless you are willing to proffer your own to challenge it.

To give 1 example of how basically wrong and completely warped a piece of reasoning yours is, look at a scenario where we know that a gangland boss has stated "If we can kill that insignificant scumbag Jimmy, who I hate unreservedly, everything will be ours- the money, the power, the prestige. How fantastic that will all be." Anyone would interpret this to mean tht the dude wants Jimmy dead. However, under your twisted "rules", as followed by many others on this forum, we cannot say that, since it would be an "assumption", worthless, and as such there is no evidence of preference on the dude's behalf as to whether Jimmy should live or die, simply because it is not stated in so many words. Moreover, such a comment cannot even be debated, since it would be debating assumptions. And thus, this is zero evidence for any intent.

Of course, this is nonsense, and would be rejected by any sane person in a normal cntext. Here however, it is standard discourse, which illustrates perfectly the mentality and level of subterfuge required to maintain the OT stance.

Originally Posted by Hokulele
In each of the cases where these flaws in your theory are pointed out, you avoid a direct response, and prefer to respond with non-sequitors, unsupported contradiction, or direct attacks on the poster.

What a disgusting and despicable lie. Show me an instance of such.

Well, hmmm, kind of seems like you did it within this very post.

But with regard to a direct attack on a poster, as you wish....

http://www.randi.org/forumlive/showpost.php?p=2694007&postcount=668

This post had a direct personal attack. Unfortunately it was removed by moderators so we cannot see what was said. But obviously it did exist at some point for the mods to remove it.

Disgusting and despicable lie? Doesn't seem like a lie at all now does it?
 
To give 1 example of how basically wrong and completely warped a piece of reasoning yours is, look at a scenario where we know that a gangland boss has stated "If we can kill that insignificant scumbag Jimmy, who I hate unreservedly, everything will be ours- the money, the power, the prestige. How fantastic that will all be." Anyone would interpret this to mean tht the dude wants Jimmy dead. However, under your twisted "rules", as followed by many others on this forum, we cannot say that, since it would be an "assumption", worthless, and as such there is no evidence of preference on the dude's behalf as to whether Jimmy should live or die, simply because it is not stated in so many words. Moreover, such a comment cannot even be debated, since it would be debating assumptions. And thus, this is zero evidence for any intent.
Are you saying that the PNAC is worded just as unambiguously as your little example??

Also, let's say a lot of people hate that scumbag Jimmy and would profit from his death. If Jimmy is killed, but no corroborating evidence existed that your gangland boss was responsible, should a court of law convict him because of his statement alone? Should he even be brought to trial at all?
 
it's irrelevant anyway.

Dang, I really need that relevance cheat sheet to know when I can deem something irrelevant. Or maybe a magic 8 ball?

ME "is this relevant?"
ME: shaking the magic 8 ball with great anticipation
8-ball: outlook not good
ME: "pfff....IRRELEVANT!"

Oh yeah, that works. I am heading to Walmart...brb
 
I thought I'd check in. Can somebody point me to the discussion of WTC7 and of the evidence linking PNAC to 9/11?

I'm pretty eager to get into those topics but I still don't see it.
 

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