The 9/11 Conspiracy Facts

[mjd1982]

Nice. You have Bush on board with a war on terrorism, but you reject the notion that he was also on board with transformation of the military. When I ask you for evidence that Bush was not on board, you sidestep:

No, that was not a sidestep, merely the point that Bush/PNAC alone would not be able to affect the transformation. They would need decision makers, right down to the public, to be on board.

When I ask you for evidence that the these decision makers were not on board, you do not reply and later have the gall to accuse others of evading and not responding to your points.

Oh come on! There are about 20 of you and 1 of me- excuse me if I miss the odd post!

The evidence that the decision makers were not on board is quite simple- would Congress/you have approved of an invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan without 9/11? Control of strategic resources is one aim of PNAC/ the rebuilding of America's defenses/WOT, as you will surely know. This is 2examples of something that would not have happened absent 911.

So, Bush is sold on the WoT prior to 2001, but to sell him transformation of the military that, according to you, requires a 9/11 event. Excuse me if I don't buy it.

No. It's not just transformation of the military. Please read here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84473&page=3

for full details of what the WOT has entailed.

 

[mjd1982]

According to a reporter at a news conference. How does this prove the offer was legitimate?

It may not have been. Of course, this has been reported by Cockburn and others, so you'll have some work to do to prove that it wasnt. But in any case
the point is that it was not as if the neo cons chased down the lead and found the Taliban to be screwing around. They did nothing to follow up on the lead. This is inexplicable under any normal circumstance

 

[mjd1982]

This is an interesting way to start off phase 2. First, you'll need to show evidence that hundreds of billions of dollars are spent each year in significant part to make sure we are not the victims of a sneak attack.

Ok, that may be a littlebit speculative, but it is based in the fairly safe premise that governments do not usually want their countries being attacked again and again and again, if they can help it.

Second, and more importantly, you'll need to show that a PH-type event is more unlikely without government involvement. How many PH-type events has the United States seen in it's 230 year lifetime? How many involved government connivance? Answer those two, along with how you came up with those numbers, and you might get me to read past this part of your post.

Gladly. Since there are infrastructutres in place to prevent the occurence of a new PH, these need to be overcome somehow. Either they can be overcome by external agents/factors, or internal ones. If both are in place, there will be more force behind the overcoming of such infrastructures, and more to the point, the fact that you would have the controllers of such infrastructures helping to overcome such infrastructures, increases the chances that such will be overcome

 

[twinstead]

It may not have been. Of course, this has been reported by Cockburn and others, so you'll have some work to do to prove that it wasnt.

I would imagine that if you are going to use it as some kind of evidence that your theory is correct you might want to prove that it WAS--You know, that whole burden of proof thing.

Otherwise it's just part of the scattergun technique that many CTs use; throw out as much 'evidence' as you can, no matter if it is simple conjecture, already debunked, or out-and-out lies and pretend like you have an avalanche of smoking guns.

 

[DGM]

It may not have been. Of course, this has been reported by Cockburn and others, so you'll have some work to do to prove that it wasnt. But in any case
the point is that it was not as if the neo cons chased down the lead and found the Taliban to be screwing around. They did nothing to follow up on the lead. This is inexplicable under any normal circumstance

How do you know that they did nothing? How can you be so sure that the Taliban even could hand him over? OSB seems to dance only to his own music, I find it hard to believe he would let anyone rat him out.

 

[mjd1982]

I would imagine that if you are going to use it as some kind of evidence that your theory is correct you might want to prove that it WAS--You know, that whole burden of proof thing.

Otherwise it's just part of the scattergun technique that many CTs use; throw out as much 'evidence' as you can, no matter if it is simple conjecture, already debunked, or out-and-out lies and pretend like you have an avalanche of smoking guns.

Lol, this is ridiculous!

So here we have a fact being reported by the anchor of MSNBC, the editor of The Nation, and others, and you are trying to tell me that this is conjecture/lies/debunked material???

Please tell me what else you are looking for- a signed affadavit from Mullah Omar?

 

[gumboot]

I'm confused, I thought the Mainstream Media were evil propaganda tools of the NWO Illuminati mason crocodile people... or whatever...

Now we're meant to take the word of a news anchor at face value?

-Gumboot

 

[mjd1982]

How do you know that they did nothing? How can you be so sure that the Taliban even could hand him over? OSB seems to dance only to his own music, I find it hard to believe he would let anyone rat him out.

Because MSNBC, one of the largest news organisations in the world, has reported such.

Whether the Taliban would have handd him over or not is irrelevant; I have dealt with this already.

 

[Unsecured Coins]

Whether the Taliban would have handed him over or not is irrelevant;

wait, back this bus up a second. If they really did offer to hand him over, why would them not actually doing it suddenly turn the offer into one big irrelevance fest?

And what makes this "irrelevant" now?

I have dealt with this already.

No you have not.

 

[DGM]

Because MSNBC, one of the largest news organisations in the world, has reported such.

Whether the Taliban would have handd him over or not is irrelevant; I have dealt with this already.

So the government decides that they (Taliban) don't have the capability so this makes them guilty of doing nothing. I understand.

 

[mortimer]

Gladly. Since there are infrastructutres in place to prevent the occurence of a new PH, these need to be overcome somehow. Either they can be overcome by external agents/factors, or internal ones. If both are in place, there will be more force behind the overcoming of such infrastructures, and more to the point, the fact that you would have the controllers of such infrastructures helping to overcome such infrastructures, increases the chances that such will be overcome

Amount of content that even came close to answering my questions: zero.

 

[H'ethetheth]

...Since there are infrastructutres in place to prevent the occurence of a new PH, these need to be overcome somehow. Either they can be overcome by external agents/factors, or internal ones. If both are in place, there will be more force behind the overcoming of such infrastructures, and more to the point, the fact that you would have the controllers of such infrastructures helping to overcome such infrastructures, increases the chances that such will be overcome

Amount of content that even came close to answering my questions: zero.

No no, he actually answered your question. You see, if a government attacks their own country, it's easier to overcome the defenses because they're in charge of them. It's the path of least resistance and must therefore have happened


...apparently.

 

[T.A.M.]

Because MSNBC, one of the largest news organisations in the world, has reported such.

Whether the Taliban would have handd him over or not is irrelevant; I have dealt with this already.

So are MSNBC and other MSM sources valid on all occasions, or just when it fits you? Just curious, because I am sure, if you are willing to give MSNBC and CNN as VALID sources, the people here can start bringing out alot of evidence that you may not like.

TAM

 

[Belz...]

Gladly. Since there are infrastructutres in place to prevent the occurence of a new PH, these need to be overcome somehow. Either they can be overcome by external agents/factors, or internal ones. If both are in place, there will be more force behind the overcoming of such infrastructures, and more to the point, the fact that you would have the controllers of such infrastructures helping to overcome such infrastructures, increases the chances that such will be overcome

Perhaps, but this is still speculation. You keep speculating since your first post, here. WHEN are we going to see evidence that supports this speculation ?

 

[nicepants]

Hundreds of billions of dollars are spent on defense, intel and diplomacy every year, in significant part to prevent the occurrence of a new PH, or some such event. This is why the chances of such an event occurring, absent government connivance, are so slim- it is indeed a once in a lifetime event.

So it's not likely to happen, therefore it shouldn't have happened?

What are the odds that the powerball lottery numbers being drawn this weekend would be 4 8 32 47 51 27?

The odds are 1 in 146,107,962...and yet...it happened. A once-in-a-lifetime event, and it happened. Hmm...but with the odds being so slim, using MJD logic, the result would be suspect.

 

[Unsecured Coins]

So it's not likely to happen, therefore it shouldn't have happened?

What are the odds that the powerball lottery numbers being drawn this weekend would be 4 8 32 47 51 27?

The odds are 1 in 146,107,962...and yet...it happened. A once-in-a-lifetime event, and it happened. Hmm...but with the odds being so slim, using MJD logic, the result would be suspect.

especially since my numbers were 5 9 33 48 52 and 28.

 

[aggle-rithm]

Please learnt to dstinguosh between addressing a general argument, and responding to points within that argument. One goes nowhere, and the other creates progress.

...speaking from experience, obviously. Except that he has never tried the one that creates progress, since creating progress in an informed debate can only hurt his cause.

 

[lapman]

Gladly. Since there are infrastructutres in place to prevent the occurence of a new PH, these need to be overcome somehow. Either they can be overcome by external agents/factors, or internal ones. If both are in place, there will be more force behind the overcoming of such infrastructures, and more to the point, the fact that you would have the controllers of such infrastructures helping to overcome such infrastructures, increases the chances that such will be overcome

So you're claiming that they infrastructure was in place to prevent an internal attack? The PNAC document clearly states that the new PH would be a military attack by a technologically superior, military force. There really was nothing in place to handle what happened on 9/11.

 

[Kage]

I think that the PNAC --> 9/11 has problems the same way that the lack of WMD in Iraq means no conspiracy. An evil organization would not have done 9/11 if their goals had been spelled out by PNAC, just as they would have faked WMDs had they faked 9/11. People get hung up on the "Pearl Harbor" line, and 9/11 was our generation's Pearl Harbor, but 9/11 was not the Pearl Harbor specified by PNAC.

Intel failures present another issue. We would like to think of our Intel services as an all knowing big brother with the skills of James Bond and super huge resources, but they are not perfect. As good as the NSA is they have orders of magnitude less processing power than google. Are such failures serious? Defintely. Presenting a nefarious reason why these failures happened creates a huge lower bound for the size of the conspiracy. If you make the conspiracy too small then the intel can get high enough and thwart the conspiracy. If you make it too big it becomes impossible to keep the conspiracy a secret. Pomeroo puts the statistics nicely, so I wont step on his toes with that argument. Consider instead the amount of coordination involved in pulling off such a large conspiracy. Coordination scales exponentially with the size of the conspiracy. How do you perform this balet like plan with perfect precision without any of your preparations becoming known? How do you keep the emails secret, the memos unknown, and the meetings secret? How long does it take to plan out such an attack? Was there a contingent plan had Gore won, given that the planning for such an attack would take so much time? Take pomeroo's math on individuals remaining close lipped on the conspiracy and apply that to every email, phone call and letter involved.

It will take more than intel failures and PNAC o prove 9/11 was LIHOP or MIHOP. I rephrase my problem with your argument:

1 - PNAC
2 - Intel failures
3 - ?
4 - 9/11?!

 

[David Wong]

Because MSNBC, one of the largest news organisations in the world, has reported such.

MSNBC, one of the largest news organizations in the world, also reported that 19 hijackers did 9/11, without PNAC involvement, and that WTC 7 was brought down without the help of explosives.

I guess we can close the thread now. That was easy.