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Merged Terror attack on German Christmas market

Yes, so they're putting in some practice in advance. That makes the self flagellation project all the more feasible, doesn't it? I mean they've got a good supply of whips already.

That's debatable, but what it does is that it shows that Muslims are fully capable of mass mobilization on the scale dwarfing that pitiful rally of 30,000 Muslims from all over the world if they sufficiently care about something.

Apparently the death of a warlord of theirs more than 1300 years ago is important enough to attract a population of a medium-sized country to Karbala every year, but the fact their religion inspires religious violence that kills tens of thousands of people a year and drives millions from their homes is only important enough to attract a few dozen thousand Muslims to a one-off event. Furthermore because only some widely circulated media reported extensively on it, it is considered to be suffering from a "media boycott".

Clearly until either Islam ceases to be a major contributor to violence (which is a more PC form of the honest version: it goes extinct in it's present form) or else these two numbers of mass mobilization are closely matched, we won't be able to say Muslims have their priorities straight or that they are doing all they can to stem both the violence and (much more importantly) the knock-down effects from that violence on society.

McHrozni
 
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I've got no dog in this fight whatsoever, but I followed the link in your sig and I agree that you're studiously mis-reading what he wrote. I've been reading this entire thread and I have read where he has explained what he meant and the context.

Thanks :) It's good to see that my quoting isn't in vain and that there are rational and intelligent people reading the thread who have both the capacity and willingness to examine the evidence and decide based on what the evidence says :)

McHrozni
 
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...snip...

You, Darat, Craig B and others are doing your best to turn this whole conversation personal and it's blatantly obvious. I don't know nor do I care at this moment what McHrozni's political leanings are; he's put forth his argument in a clear and rational manner and has defended it decently.

I can't see where in this thread an accusation of "turn this whole conversation personal" can be used against my posts - unless asking a member about what they post is now going to be called "turn this whole conversation personal"

...snip...

So what? You've said this a dozen times now. I don't think I've actually seen you state why you disagree; just keep harping on the irrelevant question of, in essence, "who do you think you are?"

But I'm not making a claim apart from disagreeing with the premise that McHrozni starts from. It is not up to me to provide an alternative.

...snip...

He's already explained what you've wanted him to explain so maybe it's time to just drop it if this is the extent of your contributions.

Already asked and answered many times.

...snip...

If s/he has answered and I missed it I am very willing to apologise, can you provide a link to the post that actually answers what I have repeatedly asked?

...snip...
So why doesn't anyone else who opposes McHrozni give some more effective solutions instead of whining that his proposal is teh suxxors?

I've no idea for others but I am curious to examine the claims that have been put forward not divert it into a thread about my views.

If you want to introduce something new into the thread you can of course do so and if it is something that interests me I'll probably respond.
 
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But you also claim to disagree with the opposite of my premise. <snip>

I have repeatedly stated what I don't agree with i.e. your starting premise, and you even agreed I knew what your premise was. There are also not just two options, which is why you are presenting a false dichotomy.


<snip>

Why are you the one to set the appropriate level of protest for over a billion people?


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This is precisely that I'm doing. The thing is, you consider any criticism of Islam to be unacceptable, and hence refuse to even look for context when you get an appropriate soundbite.

McHrozni

Disagreeing with your criticism does not mean finding any criticism of Islam unacceptable.
 
Disagreeing with your criticism does not mean finding any criticism of Islam unacceptable.

If A'isha thinks she agrees with some forms of criticism of Islam but not mine she is free to present what she thinks are acceptable forms of criticism and prove me wrong.

You know, kind of like I did when she called me out on that gas chamber comment?

If she refuses to do so I have been proven right once more. Good job pointing it out, thanks :D:thumbsup:

McHrozni
 
If A'isha thinks she agrees with some forms of criticism of Islam but not mine she is free to present what she thinks are acceptable forms of criticism and prove me wrong.

You know, kind of like I did when she called me out on that gas chamber comment?

If she refuses to do so I have been proven right once more. Good job pointing it out, thanks :D:thumbsup:

McHrozni

Do you not realise that the highlighted claim is not supported by logic?
 
Do you not realise that the highlighted claim is not supported by logic?

No, it is entirely logical. The only way to falsify it is if A'isha proves the opposite (which is trivial) or explains why she can't (which is also trivial). Since she has done neither, I can conclude the only logical solution is that she, in fact, will never accept any criticism of Islam.

The same goes for you and your utter lack of contribution to the thread. You don't have any arguments, and resort to post and run tactics in a vain hope of angering people who do have something to contribute, so you can shut them up.

Prove me wrong if you can.

McHrozni
 
No, it is entirely logical. The only way to falsify it is if A'isha proves the opposite (which is trivial) or explains why she can't (which is also trivial). Since she has done neither, I can conclude the only logical solution is that she, in fact, will never accept any criticism of Islam.

<childish taunts snipped >

McHrozni
That someone does not do your bidding does not mean that they can't do what you want them to do. That is why it is a logical fail.
 
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That someone does not do your bidding does not mean that they can't do what you want them to do.

In this particular case this is the only conclusion which fits the data. Again, if you want to prove me wrong you only need to explain what you do believe in, or else why you refuse to divulge your beliefs.

You either have none at all or have come to realize they have been already deconstructed and proven to be false, and you don't want to embarrass yourself or (heaven forbid!) change your opinion. So you resort to pretending there is something where only void awaits.

Some skeptic you are :rolleyes:

McHrozni
 
In this particular case this is the only conclusion which fits the data. Again, if you want to prove me wrong you only need to explain what you do believe in, or else why you refuse to divulge your beliefs.

What also fits the data is:

She doesn't want to do what you want her to do
She doesn't have time to do what you want her to do
She has in the past done what you want her to do and you missed it
She has in the past produced such criticism
She regularly appears on local radio exhorting Muslims not to take up terrorism as Islam does not support terrorism
She wants to frustrate you

All those myriad of reasons also "follow the evidence" which is why your conclusion does not actually "follow the evidence, that is rather basic logic.

<snip>


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What also fits the data is:

I'm sure you can claim for lots on nonsense to fit the data, but it will remain nonsense. Alas, we are talking about a person, not some inanimate object we can only observe, but which will never divulge anything about itself. I'll just wait for her excuses to show up and comment on them.

Or lack of them, that would work too.

Incidentally, which of those excuses applies to you? Is it the last one?

McHrozni
 
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I could say the entirety of evidence is readily available from the thread you quote to. But since I'm a better person than you, I'll do as you pretend to want (but fear beyond all reason), I will quote the actual post. One of them, because there were several.

I see you don't actually quote the post that I take the quote in my sig from, but an entirely different post (one made a day and a half later than the one I quote).

It's rather difficult to claim that I'm taking your post "out of context" when the "context" apparently didn't show up until 32 hours later. But okay, let's look at your "context" for asking me if I wanted to be put in a gas chamber because I disagreed with you that "Islam" is the problem.

You don't risk being put in a gas chamber because of your opinions, where did you get that idea from anyway?

That would be the part of your initial post where you said "A'isha, alongside many others, completely ignores the textual evidence that strongly supports the observational data and tries to use the cherry-picked observational data to conclude Islam is not a source of problems. I the approach find rather ridiculous. Does she want to end up in a gas chamber, I wonder?"

You risk being put in a gas chamber because you (appear to) follow a religion whose greatest achievement in the past several centuries is 1001 ways to make innocent everyday objects into tools to commit mass murder, and whose followers (including you) spare no effort to defend the religion and keep it as it is while making essentially no effort to fix the glaring problems with the religion.

Here you state that I'm going to be one of the ones thrown into a gas chamber not because I support and defend terrorism, but because I "spare no effort to defend the religion and keep it as it is while making essentially no effort to fix the glaring problems with the religion".

And this, by your own assertion, is the proper "context" for your posts: you thinking I "want to be put in a gas chamber" because I "conclude Islam is not a source of problems". You know, just like I said.

My comments about gas chambers are exactly as much a threat as a climatologist warning about the disastrous climate change is a threat. I actually want to spare you from that fate, but you're listening about as much as a rich oil magnate is to the climatologist. This was explained to you before. Why do you keep misrepresenting my points?

The rather hollow nature of your disclaimer here is shown by your requirement that Muslims meet impossible demands in order to avoid this fate.

You're the one focused on head-chopping. I explicitly said I would accept a different form of execution.

Here's your entire argument when I pointed out that even Buddhism has a problem with religiously-motivated violence, from this post: "Really? Please list Buddhist head-chopping states in existence today."

When I called you out for "focusing on a specific method of state execution so you can handwave and minimize and ignore the violence, terrorism, and killings carried out in the name of pretty much every religion, not just Islam", your response was not to say you "would accept a different form of execution", but to demand "a Buddhist state that does what ISIS does and uses Buddhist teachings, and those teachings alone to justify it".

And again, I called you out for focusing on "as with the state execution method of beheading, with the carefully wording of the request to prompt the answer you want, even if it excludes things that you have previously included when talking about Islamic terrorists," and pointed to the genocide of the Rohingya. And your response to that is this:

Close enough according to you, not according to reality. What Rohingya are doing is closer to what is happening to non-Muslims in Egypt (and a whole host of others, see Algeria in 1960s) than what is happening to minorities under ISIS.

"What Rohingya are doing?"

You either think the Muslim Rohingya are the ones rounding 130,000 people up into camps, razing villages, hacking children to death in pre-dawn raids, burning religious buildings, raping hundreds of women, and massacreing people and dumping them into mass graves (rather than, you know, being the victims of those genocidal crimes at the hands of Buddhists), or you're confusing the victims of genocide with the perpetrators.

If you're going to claim that's comparable to ISIS, Islam just got that much worse for your to defend.

I like how my taking exception to you asking me if I want to be put in a gas chamber because I don't agree with you that "Islam" is the problem has become me somehow defending ISIS.

I never claimed Islam has no good features. My claim is only that Islam has massive bad features which effectively drown out the good features it might have.

Yeah, no. Not when you say nonsense like "If they claim they don't think their religion actually tells them to be terrorists, they already deny the validity of their religion as a whole."

Your refusal to acknowledge what that gas chambers comment said and using it to smear me with feces is a prime example of where Islam is really bad: accepting any form of criticism.

...says the guy who accuses me of defending ISIS merely because I point out that all major religions, not just Islam, have problems with religiously-motivated violence and disagree that "If [Muslims] claim they don't think their religion actually tells them to be terrorists, they already deny the validity of their religion as a whole."

The fact you protested it in this way clearly demonstrates you're fully aware of the difference I'm talking about, and just refuse to acknowledge it. How very 'skeptical' of you :rolleyes:

No, they're both similarly bad (or similarly benign), not that one is bad and the other is benign. I wouldn't want to be a non-Muslim living in ISIS territory, but neither would I want to be a non-Buddhist living in Burma/Myanmar, and for the exact same reason.
 
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She has in the past done what you want her to do and you missed it
She has in the past produced such criticism

It is, in fact, these ones.

EDIT: And also because I wasn't even awake yet! He posted his challenge at 4:40 AM my time, and was already declaring victory because I hadn't responded at 6:53 AM!
 
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If A'isha thinks she agrees with some forms of criticism of Islam but not mine she is free to present what she thinks are acceptable forms of criticism and prove me wrong.

My "criticism of Islam", if you want to call it that, has involved condemnation of ISIS' theology and a rather burning hatred of the Muslim Brotherhood and its creed, but is mainly focused on feminist issues within Islam and Muslim countries.

I follow organizations like Women Living Under Muslim Laws and Musawah: For Equity in the Muslim Family. Some of my favorite scholars are Kecia Ali, who wrote "Sexual Ethics and Islam: Feminist Reflections on Quran, Hadith and Jurisprudence" and "Marriage and Slavery in Early Islam", and Amina Wadud, who is the godmother of gender studies in Islam and has pushed for women prayer leaders in mosques.

In the past, at JREF/ISF, I have spoken about things like the patriarchal nature of divorce in most forms of shari'ah (especially those permitting the so-called "triple talaq") and the need for more Muslim religious leaders to get involved in the fights against FGM/C and child marriage.

And this isn't the first, or even the second or third or fourth time I've been asked about this.
 
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... the honest version: it goes extinct in it's present form) or else these two numbers of mass mobilization are closely matched, we won't be able to say Muslims have their priorities straight or that they are doing all they can to stem both the violence and (much more importantly) the knock-down effects from that violence on society.
Unless more Jews demonstrate against Zionist settlements in occupied Palestine than participate in religious observances, I will accuse them of having the wrong priorities, and I will call for their religion to go extinct in its present form. Until that happens I will pay no attention to those Jews who say they oppose the settlements, because their holy books in fact extol the most murderous usurpation of exactly these areas.
 
Unless more Jews demonstrate against Zionist settlements in occupied Palestine than participate in religious observances, I will accuse them of having the wrong priorities, and I will call for their religion to go extinct in its present form. Until that happens I will pay no attention to those Jews who say they oppose the settlements, because their holy books in fact extol the most murderous usurpation of exactly these areas.

Over in the General Israel/Palestine discussion thread, there actually was a guy who "warned" the Jews supporting Israel to change their ways or they'd end up victims of a new Holocaust (he even claimed he was only telling them that for their own good and he didn't WANT it to happen, it was just inevitable if they stayed on their current path).

The other posters there (including myself) didn't buy his excuses either.
 
Ok, Everyone needs to stop the personalization of the topic. It isn't about the other posters; no matter how much you really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really want it to be. Now, knock it off.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: kmortis
 
I hope this doesn't run afoul of of the mod box, but since I made the accusation publicly, I feel I should apologize publicly (and I only realized my error after kmortis' post).

I misread part of McHrzoni's last reply to me, thinking he said I was defending ISIS when he didn't say that at all.

I apologize for that, McHrozni.
 
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Unless more Jews demonstrate against Zionist settlements in occupied Palestine than participate in religious observances, I will accuse them of having the wrong priorities, and I will call for their religion to go extinct in its present form. Until that happens I will pay no attention to those Jews who say they oppose the settlements, because their holy books in fact extol the most murderous usurpation of exactly these areas.


I'm going to guess that this is satire, but there are plenty of people who actually think this way.

What I don't understand is why all good people born in Lockport, New York aren't condemning the actions of Oklahoma City Bomber Tim McVeigh. They're all volunteering for the gas chamber, as far as I'm concerned.
 

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