Terror attack in Wisconsin

[casebro]

and Coffin?

 

[LondonJohn]

Source




Source

The entire basis of us being a species that can even (kind of) do civilization is due to important evolutionary events throughout our species' history where certain types of individuals became more or less common.

If you want to continue to be a species that can "do civilization" it is necessary to prune undesirable genetic traits like propensity for violence, low impulse control, etc.

A huge culling of anyone with criminal / violent tendencies is exactly what must occur.

You can either hope that we somehow manage to pull this off with gene editing, or you can sign on to what I'm talking about. Spoiler alert: gene editing will come too slowly and face too much opposition.

Blimey (as we say on my side of the Pond)

 

[bonzombiekitty]

You can't see how the setting of cash bail - with its twin facets of a) the prospect of incurring a harmful financial penalty and/or b) the assistance offered by bail bond enforcers in assisting LE in tracking down bail-absconders - offers at least something in-between the all-or-nothing of remand or unconditional bail?

Nope. If you area flight risk, I don't think cash bail is any more helpful than the risk of jail time for skipping out on trial. If you are a violent threat, I don't see how cash bail helps that.

Instead, if you are a flight risk or otherwise a threat, there's other tactics that can be taken to get you out of jail until trial - like ankle monitors or something of that sort.

I do not think cash bail does anything to prevent people from failing to show up for trial or prevent them from committing any crimes while awaiting trial. All it does is punish people who can't afford the cash bail.

 

[Suddenly]

I
When you graft onto that the capacity for individual/collective/systemic incompetence, I'd say it's grimly inevitable that every now and then an outrage such as this is going to occur. But is there a one-shot panacea? I really don't think there is.

No, the idea is to grab on to a rare outcome and cynically use it to score political points by arguing for simple and draconian policies that sound tough on crime but make things way worse.

A no cash bond policy is a really easy target for this sort of thing because the downside of people getting out and committing another crime is way more obvious and tangible than the downsides of incarcerating people pending trial unless they and/or their families pay money for their freedom.

 

[Checkmite]

From the videos that I've seen it looks like he didn't end up in that place with the intention of killing anyone as his first choice. He drives the length of the crowd-lined parade route ignoring multitudes of potential victims until he arrives at the rear of the marching band which takes up the whole road.

From the overhead video, it looks like he hesitates; he definitely slows down and seems like he intends to try and get around the band at first; but when it becomes clear that's not going to happen he just says f-word it and plows through. Not getting caught for whatever crime he was fleeing from takes priority over not hurting anyone; seemingly a common thread among the suspects in high-speed vehicle chases. Not surprising I suppose, since that original crime had been stabbing a person - i.e, trying to kill them, probably over something stupid.

Looks like he's already been charged with murder, so that's that it would seem.

 

[LondonJohn]

The obvious middle-ground is ankle-tracking (or getting the vaccine).

To a degree, but......

1) Criminals out on a tag are increasingly finding ways to frustrate the technology (and criminals of all demographics and ethnicities are very accomplished at learning and disseminating this sort of information).

2) It's very difficult to impose tagging conditions which amount to a 24-hour curfew - meaning that the person in question can still be out committing crimes against the person, just in daylight hours instead.

3) No matter the length of curfew, tags do not stop people engaging in intimidation, and nor does it stop them from consorting with other criminals within their home (provided those other criminals aren't on tags too, of course).


And the important difference between bail and tags is that for many people, they're prepared to take certain risks on a tag that they're not prepared to take while on cash bail. There's an obvious reason for this: the consequence for getting caught breaking conditions when on a tag is a return to custody (plus potential additional charges); the consequence for getting caught breaking conditions when on cash bail is a return to custody (plus potential additional charges) plus a significant (to the person) financial penalty.


On top of that additional level of "self-policing" provided by cash bail, there's a further benefit of cash bail: if the person has had to get a friend or family member to post bail, then 1) that friend or family member is likely to put emotional pressure on the person not to breach bail conditions, and 2) if the person does breach bail conditions, the friend or family member is likely to at the very least put pressure on the person to hand themselves in (and occasionally will actually assist law enforcement in locating and capturing the person).

Plus there's the benefit I mentioned earlier: that where commercial bail bond houses become involved, they can do a lot of LE's dirty work for them in terms of tracing and corralling absconders.



ETA: Hehe

 

[LondonJohn]

No, the idea is to grab on to a rare outcome and cynically use it to score political points by arguing for simple and draconian policies that sound tough on crime but make things way worse.

A no cash bond policy is a really easy target for this sort of thing because the downside of people getting out and committing another crime is way more obvious and tangible than the downsides of incarcerating people pending trial unless they and/or their families pay money for their freedom.

Yes.

And as I said, the system would very quickly fall over and break if virtually everyone in this sort of situation were either a) flat-out refused bail and remanded into custody or b) granted bail, but at a price so high that neither they nor anyone they knew would realistically be able to afford it, and nor would any commercial bond house put that quantum of money at risk in those circumstances - so in other words setting bail too high would be tantamount to refusing bail in practice.

 

[LondonJohn]

From the videos that I've seen it looks like he didn't end up in that place with the intention of killing anyone as his first choice. He drives the length of the crowd-lined parade route ignoring multitudes of potential victims until he arrives at the rear of the marching band which takes up the whole road.

From the overhead video, it looks like he hesitates; he definitely slows down and seems like he intends to try and get around the band at first; but when it becomes clear that's not going to happen he just says f-word it and plows through. Not getting caught for whatever crime he was fleeing from takes priority over not hurting anyone; seemingly a common thread among the suspects in high-speed vehicle chases. Not surprising I suppose, since that original crime had been stabbing a person - i.e, trying to kill them, probably over something stupid.

Looks like he's already been charged with murder, so that's that it would seem.

I totally agree with your assessment of the situation and the putative motive & intent of this man.

And from the evidence that's already in the public domain, I can't see the state having any trouble at all securing convictions (correctly) for murder: to me, this is very obviously well above any manslaughter (or equivalent) threshold.

It's been quite a week for Wisconsin.....


ETA: Waits for someone to add yesterday's Packers result to the Wisconsin tale of woe

 

[Bogative]

Oh goodie the racists have a statistically meaningless example to harp on from now until the walls falls that prove racism is a librul myth and white people are the real victims.

↑↑↑Clown world↑↑↑


↓↓↓Real world↓↓↓

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

Jason Whitlock on Twitter:

Had Darrell Brooks been black, no way police take him into custody alive. #WhitePrivilege

 

[GlennB]

The entire basis of us being a species that can even (kind of) do civilization is due to important evolutionary events throughout our species' history where certain types of individuals became more or less common.

If you want to continue to be a species that can "do civilization" it is necessary to prune undesirable genetic traits like propensity for violence, low impulse control, etc.

A huge culling of anyone with criminal / violent tendencies is exactly what must occur.

You can either hope that we somehow manage to pull this off with gene editing, or you can sign on to what I'm talking about. Spoiler alert: gene editing will come too slowly and face too much opposition.

Ethnic cleansing, by the sounds of it.

Are you a believer in a 'master race'? If so, it wouldn't happen to be the Aryan race, would it?

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Ethnic cleansing, by the sounds of it.

Are you a believer in a 'master race'? If so, it wouldn't happen to be the Aryan race, would it?

The articles I linked talked about this being done / beneficial during the middle ages in Europe, in an entirely white context. So this was not "ethnic cleansing" or anything about a master race.

 

[Venom]

So another round of "race" being emphasized as

1. a weak tit-for-tat against the narrative of rampage killers in the U.S. being mostly white (which is true, but for unremarkable reasons)

or

2. yet more evidence of black crime

And spectacular fail for these people to claim CNN refused to cover it.

 

[Bogative]

On Nov 2 when he had contact with all the people he had court orders not to (as a condition of his 2020 bail), punched his ex in the face, then ran over her leg (with the same Ford Escape), then ignored police, locked himself in a house and resisted arrest, already had an open charge of 'bail jumping', and TWO open cases involving multiple felonies involving violence and guns....

They gave him bail of $1000?

It's the systemic racism built into the white supremacist judicial system, obviously.

 

[Checkmite]

Ethnic cleansing, by the sounds of it.

Are you a believer in a 'master race'? If so, it wouldn't happen to be the Aryan race, would it?

Just ignore it. This isn't the first time that poster has launched into a full-on cartoon villain speech. It shocked me a little the first time I saw it, too.

 

[Olmstead]

The articles I linked talked about this being done / beneficial during the middle ages in Europe, in an entirely white context. So this was not "ethnic cleansing" or anything about a master race.

Yes, the Middle Ages. Civilization really had it figured out back then.

 

[Robin]

Wouldn't the willingness to "cull'" itself count as a "violent tendency"?

 

[tyr_13]

Just ignore it. This isn't the first time that poster has launched into a full-on cartoon villain speech. It shocked me a little the first time I saw it, too.

Don't ignore it, but do contextualize it and better, compare to the arguments of the 'totally not racists'. Avowed white supremacists and other racists often are making the exact same arguments as mainstream conservatives but the latter have a better veil.

 

[arthwollipot]

Ethnic cleansing, by the sounds of it.

Are you a believer in a 'master race'? If so, it wouldn't happen to be the Aryan race, would it?

Skeptic Tank isn't proposing killing all the black people. They're proposing killing all the poor people. It just so happens that a lot of the poor people are also black.

 

[Cain]

To a degree, but......

I'll preface my remarks by saying I'm not against cash bail full stop. As I'm sure you'll agree, electronic surveillance is a useful tool, not a panacea. In the case of this Wisconsin criminal, the state could have compelled him to finance ankle monitoring, which may have prevented all of this carnage. Remanding him to custody would have almost certainly prevented the atrocities.

Saying criminals are "increasingly finding ways" to circumvent the tech means little to me without the estimated base rate. I'm sure there are plenty of Youtube videos about how to hack the monitor -- as there is no shortage of videos about how to break out of handcuffs and zip-ties. In terms of relative effectiveness over time, it's a constant arms race to build a better mousetrap.

Maybe there's a language divide on "curfew," but I wouldn't want most people to be in quarantine for 24 hours. The majority on monitoring should spend most of their day at work (persistent, jobless criminal underclass addressed later).

Re: Intimidation and consorting with criminals
I do not see how this is different than cash bail. Intimidation is even carried out from behind bars. Electronic monitoring only needs to be better in some respects than the current regime.

And the important difference between bail and tags is that for many people, they're prepared to take certain risks on a tag that they're not prepared to take while on cash bail. There's an obvious reason for this: the consequence for getting caught breaking conditions when on a tag is a return to custody (plus potential additional charges); the consequence for getting caught breaking conditions when on cash bail is a return to custody (plus potential additional charges) plus a significant (to the person) financial penalty.

On top of that additional level of "self-policing" provided by cash bail, there's a further benefit of cash bail: if the person has had to get a friend or family member to post bail, then 1) that friend or family member is likely to put emotional pressure on the person not to breach bail conditions, and 2) if the person does breach bail conditions, the friend or family member is likely to at the very least put pressure on the person to hand themselves in (and occasionally will actually assist law enforcement in locating and capturing the person).

You make good points. I'm not keen on seeing taxpayers fund all of this electronic surveillance. People should pay for their own monitor, including some who are indigent. I don't want to live in a society where GoFundMe raises money for surgery, but I don't mind using it to pay for tracking. In the case of a persistent criminal underclass, those who have no jobs to work during the day, no assets for collateral, and no family, friends, ministries, or bail bond companies willing to pony up the cash -- in other words, nothing left to lose -- then, well, they probably belong in custody.

A case from California that made national news involved a homeless man's crime spree. Dude was found in a stolen car with a meth pipe. Hours after release he stole a tip jar. After he was caught and arrested for that crime, he stole a flatbed truck parked in front of the police station! Now that's just ridiculous, and, granted, the situation is exacerbated by COVID protocols, but if you've been released back into the community, and continue to crime, then, I'm sorry, as much as I hate to say it, there's been a failure to communicate.