Teenage Killers in Finland

[Vixen]

Perhaps I'm misreading this, but you seem awfully disappointed that it turned out the perpetrators were white.

You are misreading it.


Unfortunately, here in Europe, after any atrocity, the neo-nazi far right puts out fake claims the perp/s are 'Somali', which is a shame, as all the Somalis I have ever met have seemed really sweet-natured.

The police put an end to the speculation in this case by making that statement. One child expert interviewed by TURUN SANOMAT kept going on about immigration so you can see the assumptions people make, albeit unwittingly.

Sadly, there are a certain type of persons driven by political agenda, who try to stoke up hatred and negative attributes towards target groups.

 

[Vixen]

Bullying is nothing new, of course. When I was at school in England, the physical type of bullying was more to do with the boys (pushing, kicking, playing 'tag' [grabbing the other's personal parts]), with girls it was a lot more sophisticated and consisted of exclusion. Girls would go around in ostentatious groups and could exercise bullying by denying other girls admission into their clique, or they'd fail to invite someone to a party. I do think this type of emotional cruelty is far more damaging psychologically than someone tripping you up in the hallway or shoving you out of the way. Perhaps. Maybe a sweeping generalisation.

AUIU the victim in this case was a very lonely child and his hanging around with people who clearly did not see him as an equal nor treated him with respect, was so desperate to have a peer group he played along in the subservient role accorded him by these bullies, who revelled in their dominance.

I note there was a lot of alcohol involved. There was a study some years ago that linked drinking alcohol to violent and uninhibited reckless behaviour in Finnish men, who were the only ones to have that particular gene. ISTM it is possible one or more of the perps may have had this gene...?

The 'violent' gene: Genetic mutation found only in Finnish men that makes them fight

A genetic mutation that makes men impulsive and aggressive, especially when drunk, has been isolated in Finnish men.

Research on violent criminals in Finland has uncovered a genetic variant of a brain receptor molecule that contributes that makes people more likely to be aggressive when they have been drinking.

The findings could lead to a better understanding into why some people are more prone to sudden bouts of violence and to the treatment of violent offenders.

<snip>

A report of the findings appears in the December 23rd issue of Nature.

'Impulsivity, or action without foresight, is a factor in many pathological behaviours including suicide, aggression, and addiction,' says David Goldman chief of the Laboratory of Neurogenetics at the NIH's National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA).

<snip>


The findings could lead to a better understanding into why some people are more prone to sudden bouts of violence and to the treatment of violent offenders.

Incredibly, the gene is only found in men from Finland and so cannot explain similar behaviour in other countries such as the UK.

'But it is also a trait that can be of value if a quick decision must be made or in situations where risk-taking is favoured.'

In collaboration with researchers in Finland and France, Dr. Goldman and colleagues studied a sample of violent criminal offenders in Finland.

The hallmark of the violent crimes committed by individuals in the study sample was that they were spontaneous and purposeless.

'We conducted this study in Finland because of its unique population history and medical genetics,' says Dr. Goldman.

'Modern Finns are descended from a relatively small number of original settlers, which has reduced the genetic complexity of diseases in that country.

‘Studying the genetics of violent criminal offenders within Finland increased our chances of finding genes that influence impulsive behaviour.'

Certainly alcohol and other drugs are known to have a disinhibiting effect on the nervous system and therefore, behaviour.

 

[Vixen]

Actually, my understanding is that we actually can and do do a lot to reduce bullying. It's just that what we do works very poorly with a) kids whose parents don't give a damn and b) ing psychos. Nobody really has a clue how to deal with ing psychos.

And Vixen, did we really need the names and pictures of everyone involved?

In many of these types of killings there is parental neglect to be found in the background (Mary Bell, Venables & Thompson). However, there is usually one ringleader and in cases like this, it can be very hard to unravel how much each boy is responsible for their acts Two claim the third, Veeti, also was violent towards them; two seem to come from good homes and were well-liked by their peer group. One seems to have been the angry 'rebel without a cause' outsider. Police believe the two boys are simply trying to pin it on the other but no doubt the dynamics of group crime are more complex than meets the eye.

The identities appear to be in the public domain anyway and the prosecutors want them published, as in the Kuopio school killing, due to the depravity involved, according to TS.

The Kuopio school stabbing occurred on 1 October 2019 at Savo Vocational College in Kuopio, Northern Savonia, Finland. Armed with a sabre, 25-year-old student Joel Otto Aukusti Marin killed a female student and wounded nine others. He also carried an air pistol which was not used during the attack; it was initially mistaken for a real firearm. The attack ended when a policeman shot and wounded Marin.

wiki

 

[Ernie M]

What I find interesting is that it seems like nobody - not parents, not educators, not sociologists, not regulators, not lawmakers - have any ******* clue how to deal with bullies.

The entire world seems to agree that the only real response to bullying is to just close your eyes and hope it doesn't get too bad.

Slightly an aside, but three murdering psychos just happened to find each other in the same school? Sounds like they are not as rare as we often assume, and the bastards are everywhere. Maybe sitting near you right now. Maybe a few of them.

Also, 12k Euros for murdering a child? There's a bigger payout for a slip and fall in a commercial establishment in the States, paid out as a nuicance settlement to avoid the cost of litigation.

From childhood on, people learn what they can, and cannot, get away with. Boundaries and limits are explored, and consequences–if any & the severity–of their actions, are learned.

There's a range of bad actions; some bad actions are on a lesser-scale, and some on a grander-scale. But the issue is, there's a lot of people who are mean, and/or cruel, and/or selfish. I don't know what that number is, or how to quantify how many, or what percentage, of the population is mean/cruel/selfish.

Some people develop problematic behaviors, and may relish whatever it is they get from their meanness, and/or cruelty, and/or selfishness.

Someone can inflict harm on an individual. Someone can inflict harm on many people. Some of the people who inflict harm can be one part, of any number of other people who form and aggregate of harmers. People who harm may be a family member, or someone in a position of trust, or power. They likely don't want to be found out, or held accountable. They (typically) desire and need to protect themselves from being caught, from being held accountable.

Don't look for abuse, or harm, to stop:

Some of the people in power might include those in the financial service industry, legal profession, law enforcement, or, ANY profession, service, or personal connection. They may be socially, industry-related, and/or politically connected.

Carla F. Bad

Carla F. Bad is a "readily memorized acronym that reminds investigators of just what to investigate when looking into someone’s background," wrote retired FBI supervisory special agent James A. Gagliano, CNN law enforcement analyst, and adjunct assistant professor at St. John’s University in Queens, New York. [1]

The acronym represents character, associates, reputation, loyalty, ability, finances, bias, alcohol and drugs.

While James A. Gagliano's article mentions how investigators might look into someone's background, his article doesn't address (nor was it intended to address) the number of people who commit harm; either an individual (one-off) act, or multiple acts, of harm.

Daily news, word of mouth, and court cases, are some ways to see that there are a lot of people who harm others.

Source:
1. Gagliano, James A. "If FBI investigated allegation against Kavanaugh, here's what it would do." CNN.com. September 25, 2018. https: //www .cnn.com/2018/09/24/opinions/kavanaugh-fbi-investigation-process-gagliano/index.html Accessed 22 Feb 2021.

 

[smartcooky]

That's right! The way to teach people that threatening people with violence is wrong is to threaten them with violence.

Shame that was your takeaway.. you entirely missed the point.

Bullies generally need to be on the receiving end of what they dish out - if the only thing they understand is violence, then violence is the only thing they will understand.

In my case, I protected my sister from an immediate threat to her safety. The bully was blocking the footpath and whenever she tried to get past him, he would push her out into the traffic of a very busy road. What would you have me do... appeal to his better angel, talk him to death?

 

[Thermal]

Shame that was your takeaway.. you entirely missed the point.

Bullies generally need to be on the receiving end of what they dish out - if the only thing they understand is violence, then violence is the only thing they will understand.

In my case, I protected my sister from an immediate threat to her safety. The bully was blocking the footpath and whenever she tried to get past him, he would push her out into the traffic of a very busy road. What would you have me do... appeal to his better angel, talk him to death?

While your point is valid, that sometimes emergent violent action is necessary to mitigate an immediate threat, what do you think was the bully's takeaway? I'd guess he thought that "the highest level of violence wins". Probably counterproductive in the overall, no? If he is the industrious sort, he has just been incentivised to be the most violent on the block to get his way.

 

[rockinkt]

Shame that was your takeaway.. you entirely missed the point.

Bullies generally need to be on the receiving end of what they dish out - if the only thing they understand is violence, then violence is the only thing they will understand.

In my case, I protected my sister from an immediate threat to her safety. The bully was blocking the footpath and whenever she tried to get past him, he would push her out into the traffic of a very busy road. What would you have me do... appeal to his better angel, talk him to death?

You did well. Bullies need to be taught that their actions have consequences. The consequences must be tailored to the actions of the bully. Sometimes there is a small window of opportunity to delve into the assessment and counselling aspects of behaviour modification while other times the timing and circumstances do not allow for this.
Since your sister was in immediate danger you did the right thing.
Your sister did not suffer harm. The bully got taught a very good lesson about how his actions caused consequences in the form the pain and humiliation of a good thrashing; and, he was assured that his actions would be monitored and he could expect further negative consequences for bad behaviour.

 

[rockinkt]

While your point is valid, that sometimes emergent violent action is necessary to mitigate an immediate threat, what do you think was the bully's takeaway? I'd guess he thought that "the highest level of violence wins". Probably counterproductive in the overall, no? If he is the industrious sort, he has just been incentivised to be the most violent on the block to get his way.

He most likely learned that day that he was NOT the most violent on the block and that his actions would have seriously negative consequences if he tried.
The pleasure versus pain equation is understood by even the most dimwitted.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

You are misreading it.


Unfortunately, here in Europe, after any atrocity, the neo-nazi far right puts out fake claims the perp/s are 'Somali', which is a shame, as all the Somalis I have ever met have seemed really sweet-natured.

The police put an end to the speculation in this case by making that statement. One child expert interviewed by TURUN SANOMAT kept going on about immigration so you can see the assumptions people make, albeit unwittingly.

Sadly, there are a certain type of persons driven by political agenda, who try to stoke up hatred and negative attributes towards target groups.

Apologies. You are, unfortunately, very correct that the most racist would assume any act of violence was perpetrated by the non-white population unless it was specified.

 

[RolandRat]

He most likely learned that day that he was NOT the most violent on the block and that his actions would have seriously negative consequences if he tried.
The pleasure versus pain equation is understood by even the most dimwitted.

Did he though? Or did he simply take his violence else-where? I simply don't believe a beat-down stops a bully from being a bully.

 

[theprestige]

Did he though? Or did he simply take his violence else-where? I simply don't believe a beat-down stops a bully from being a bully.

A threatened beat-down. Did our 15 year old guardian angel actually follow the bully around and make sure he never victimized another kid? Or did some other 11 year old get to discover what life is like when you don't have an older brother threatening fisticuffs on your behalf?

 

[rockinkt]

Did he though? Or did he simply take his violence else-where? I simply don't believe a beat-down stops a bully from being a bully.

There is no way to deal with this other than one case at a time. Like any other villainous element in society they will continue their actions when they think they can get away with it. Or, the benefit they get is outweighed by the consequences. In other words - they will only stop when they have to.
Unless, perhaps, you have a solution?

 

[rockinkt]

A threatened beat-down. Did our 15 year old guardian angel actually follow the bully around and make sure he never victimized another kid? Or did some other 11 year old get to discover what life is like when you don't have an older brother threatening fisticuffs on your behalf?

Hopefully the bully at last found out that there were consequences to his actions. However, like I posted above, you can only deal with one case at a time.

 

[smartcooky]

A threatened beat-down. Did our 15 year old guardian angel actually follow the bully around and make sure he never victimized another kid? Or did some other 11 year old get to discover what life is like when you don't have an older brother threatening fisticuffs on your behalf?

The bully is now a local real-estate agent...

Make of that what you will!

 

[Roboramma]

While your point is valid, that sometimes emergent violent action is necessary to mitigate an immediate threat, what do you think was the bully's takeaway? I'd guess he thought that "the highest level of violence wins". Probably counterproductive in the overall, no? If he is the industrious sort, he has just been incentivised to be the most violent on the block to get his way.

That seems like a rather sophisticated message to take away (and one just justified by the limited data he has anyway). I suspect his much less philosophical take away was "don't mess with that girl", or potentially "don't mess with people".

I experienced an intermediate amount of bullying growing up, and responded to it in a few ways. When I was in 1st to 3rd grade there was a kid who would beat me up every time he could get alone with me, probably because I was the smallest kid in our grade. I have a pretty distinct memory of him grabbing me by the hair swinging me against a wall one time when I ran into him in the bathroom. I'd then tell my friends and a group of us would get revenge, but then the next time he found me alone he'd just do it again. That didn't work out for me. So it seems Smartcookie's method doesn't always work. Later I tried befriending him, and I became his best friend. He stopped beating me up, but I was still always afraid of him.

Another time, in sixth grade, a kid told me he was going to give me a beating. I had no idea why. I never really interacted with him. First I talked to our mutual friends, but they didn't want to get involved. He started following me around the playground. I was sort of terrified. One day while he was following me I just stopped and turned around and tackled him. I held him down and yelled "What is your problem!" In his face. After that he never bothered me again and we always treated each other with mutual respect.

When I got to junior high it was more pyschological bullying. I remember having nightmares most nights in 7th grade because every day in one of my classes the kids sitting next to me would spend the whole class making fun of me. That lasted until I got out of that class. I was an awkward kid and didn't have the wit to give back as much as I was getting so they really had no motivation to stop. There were other similar times, but that was the worst. I can't really think of anything I've experienced in my life that was worse than that.

I think I had it worse than most but much better than some. In a class of 30 kids there were probably three or four others who had it worse than I did. Having experienced it myself, I tried to stop bullying when I saw it. So, for instance when kids were playing "keep away" with someone's books or toy I'd just go over and give it back, or confront the bully with straight questions "why are you trying to make him cry?" Which would usually get them to stop. But that doesn't work if the victim says it.

Nevertheless there was one kid who, to my continued shame and regret, I never intervened for. He was terrorized every day. The only thing I can say is I didn't participate. I was scared of being a target. 30 years later I still feel sorry for that kid. Even the teachers didn't stand up for him (the kids would throw things at him, then during the ruckus would blame him for it, and usually the teachers would go along with that). It's hard to imagine that they couldn't see what was going on. He went to a different junior high school than I did and I always hoped things got better for him after entering a new peer group.

I have to agree with theprestige: it'd be nice to know of some effective way of dealing with bullies.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...

And Vixen, did we really need the names and pictures of everyone involved?

I was curious to see what they looked like, actually. So yes. And why would it matter if people on this forum knew the kids' names and faces?

Re intervention, that 'orphanage' needs some serious investigation as does the school and whatever social workers might have been involved in previous incidents.

 

[Vixen]

I was curious to see what they looked like, actually. So yes. And why would it matter if people on this forum knew the kids' names and faces?

Re intervention, that 'orphanage' needs some serious investigation as does the school and whatever social workers might have been involved in previous incidents.

I was shocked by how young they looked. We forget how childlike many sixteen-year-olds still are - one was just turning sixteen on the day of the crime - and it is appalling that they are being indicted for murder aggravated by beatings and torture. The suspect named as A. seems to have become obese and has adopted a weird hairstyle - as is the wont of teenagers - and who knows what stürm und drangst they might have been going through at home and in general, with nothing to do but hang out at the local park.

 

[RolandRat]

There is no way to deal with this other than one case at a time. Like any other villainous element in society they will continue their actions when they think they can get away with it. Or, the benefit they get is outweighed by the consequences. In other words - they will only stop when they have to.
Unless, perhaps, you have a solution?

I don't have a solution, no. This is why we have child and family experts. I'm pretty confident that giving the bully a slap doesn't stop him being a bully though.

 

[Roboramma]

I don't have a solution, no. This is why we have child and family experts. I'm pretty confident that giving the bully a slap doesn't stop him being a bully though.

Do we have any experts who are actually capable of lowering rates of bullying?

 

[gnome]

I'd say that's likely--or at least that claim levels of success. I can't say I've scrutinized their figures or measurement methods.