TAM 2011 WTC 7 debate

The op and the supporters of the OP aren't making any sense...
The OP singles out members of the TAM conference, people who in general don't have any involvement in the constant blabbering about 9/11 conspiracies, and don't meet the qualifications that they demand.

Basing credibility on the person's name only is stupid to begin with, but if you're demanding from every one of your critics that they:

A) Give their real name
&
B) Must be a professional in the area of building design/construction

to be even remotely considered for credibility, doesn't this entire OP shoot the tuther/9/11 oct skeptic/<fill desired name in> movement in the foot for not practicing what it preaches?*

*Then again, why would this hypocrisy be surprising...
 
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No, I mean a real engineer who has a real name.
cmatrix said:
Well Dave how about this. I will also open the debate to the smartest structural engineer or physicist on the planet if JREF prefers. Or just one from an Ivy League school.

Could I be permitted to point out the obvious here? If you guys are so hot to trot to speak to a "real" engineer with a "real" name and "real" credentials, why not skip the debate entirely and simply sign up to speak at a structural engineering conference?

How about any of these?

All you need to do is create an abstract (usually about 400 words), send it in to the conference, have the abstract accepted, produce a scientific paper, have the paper peer reviewed and accepted, and then attend the conference. You'll be given anywhere between 15 and 45 minutes, depending on the conference, to speak about your topic. Your audience will include engineers from all around the world, most of whom design buildings for a living.

Cmatrix, you're guaranteed to have a smart engineer in the crowd, and if you can convince her/him, the truth movement will have gained a powerful ally. There's no need to attend a silly debate at a meeting for skeptics.

What have you got to lose?
 
what is your hypothesis?


There are two:

1) The NIST WTC 7 theory is crackpot faith-based pseudo-science.

2) WTC 7 was brought down by an unusual form of controlled demolition.


No, no, no.

These are claims (and they are indeed hypotheses) but there is no point in debating about claims. That's not to say that so-called "debate" about claims doesn't happen, but it is always pointless when it does.

Either the NIST WTC 7 theory is crackpot faith-based pseduo science, or it is not. Either way, the outcome of a debate cannot change it from one to the other. Either WTC 7 was brought down by an unusual form of controlled demolition, or it was not. Either way, the outcome of a debate cannot change it from one to the other. In fact, nothing in the universe can change any historical fact, ever.

Debate is for decisions, legislation, and courses of action.

The distinction is subtle, and often overlooked by the simplifications of the popular press ("the evolution debate" or "presidential debates" that are nothing of the kind), but it is real. There is no actual debate about whether or not evolution explains the origin of species -- not because "evolution is right" but because whatever happened, whether it was evolution or creation or something else, happened and no amount of discussion can ever change it. What we can and do debate about is whether alternative narratives to evolution should be taught in public schools. Because that is a decision that people are actually able to make about what people will do in the future.

If you want to make claims about historical fact, then what you want is not a debate, but an argument.

There are many appropriate venues for such arguments. For example, if the evidence that you want to offer for your claims is historical (e.g. documentary evidence for the planning or logistics of the supposed demolition), then writing a paper for a historical journal would be the best approach. If the evidence is scientific in nature, then a scientific paper for a scientific audience is called for. Since you claim you can prove one of your claims in two sentences, completing such a paper that will pass peer review should be no difficulty.

If you do not have evidence of sufficient quality for such a paper, then you can make your argument elsewhere. Popular venues for arguments lacking sufficient evidence for a peer reviewed paper include YouTube comments, online message boards, blogs, printed self-published newsletters, letters to the editor, lawsuits, and speaking on public street corners. Have you availed yourself of these opportunities?

A presentation of your argument at a JREF conference is not on the table, based on how they have conducted matters in the past. (Of course, they can do what they want.) You will notice that when a claimant claims to have the ability to exhibit paranormal phenomena, the JREF does not debate about it. They instead simply ask the claimant to exhibit the phenomena, under controlled conditions. The nature of the claims usually requires some kind of face to face test.

Your claim is that you can prove the occurrence of certain historical events that are not currently part of the current consensual historical narrative. So, don't expect to debate about it. Do it. Write a paper exhibiting your proof.

Or are you also claiming that your proof somehow requires your physical presence to present? If so, please explain why so the JREF (or some other appropriate organization) can consider arranging such a presentation.

If you do want an actual debate, then your chances are much better if you present a proper debate premise, a claim regarding not historical fact but a future decision or course of action that you wish to advocate.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
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I LOVE Neil Tyson! Always enjoy him on The Daily Show. Incredibly entertaining. Incredibly funny. And INNCCRREEDDIIBBLLYY intelligent!



Yes! Last time he was at TAM, I listened to him at the opening reception explaining how we could use gravitational tugging to deflect asteroids from hitting the earth. Using peoples' drinks and a swizzle stick as props.

His enthusiasm for the topic is both obvious and infectious!
 
I have officially sent a request to JREF to debate WTC 7 at TAM 2011.

I would like to debate any one (or all) of the distinguished people listed below at TAM regarding NIST's crackpot faith-based pseudo-science 9/11 theory on WTC 7.

Richard Dawkins, James Randi, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Bill Nye, Carol Tavris, Elizabeth Loftus, Penn & Teller, Jennifer Ouellette, Adam Savage, Eugenie Scott, Jennifer Michael Hecht, PZ Meyers, Pamela Gay, Michael Shermer, Rebecca Watson, Sara E. Mayhew.

Last year you requested a debate with Dave Thomas. How did that pan out?
 
Last year you requested a debate with Dave Thomas. How did that pan out?

Thomas refused to debate. That's no surprise. No sane competent scientist would ever engage me in a debate on this because the official story on WTC 7is indeed complete crackpot faith-based pseudo-science garbage. The CD theory I support is indeed the most scientific theory available for the WTC 7 collapse.

This whole thread just goes to show how JREF is in no way in support of true science or true skepticism. JREF is about gate-keeping. It absolutely sickens me how the unbridled genius of Randi has been besmirched by this repugnant behavior of JREF.
 
Thomas refused to debate. That's no surprise. No sane competent scientist would ever engage me in a debate on this because the official story on WTC 7is indeed complete crackpot faith-based pseudo-science garbage. The CD theory I support is indeed the most scientific theory available for the WTC 7 collapse.

This whole thread just goes to show how JREF is in no way in support of true science or true skepticism. JREF is about gate-keeping. It absolutely sickens me how the unbridled genius of Randi has been besmirched by this repugnant behavior of JREF.

So your beef is with JREF and not with Randi personally?
 
Thomas refused to debate. That's no surprise. No sane competent scientist would ever engage me in a debate on this because the official story on WTC 7is indeed complete crackpot faith-based pseudo-science garbage. The CD theory I support is indeed the most scientific theory available for the WTC 7 collapse.

This whole thread just goes to show how JREF is in no way in support of true science or true skepticism. JREF is about gate-keeping. It absolutely sickens me how the unbridled genius of Randi has been besmirched by this repugnant behavior of JREF.

I'd imagine the reason lay less in the person's 'fear' of debating you and more in an understanding of where the debate would lead (i.e. nowhere). A major obstacle to debating 'truthers' is that they don't know how to debate. Rather, it seems as if they turn up with their guidebook to loose change and an encyclopaedia of logical fallacies of which they try their darndest to tick them all off. Debating 'truthers' goes nowhere because one side (guess which one) always approachs the subject with a set-in-stone foregone conclusion. Their tactics are generally childish and thus it would prove a waste of oxygen for anyone to debate. As for no sane and competent scientist debating against CD of WTC7, I suppose you believe Gage's gaggle of 1400 signatories to be the only sane scientists the world has left? (and lets not even mention the spuriousness of "1400 CERTIFIED EXPERTS" as this has been identified as false).
 
Thomas refused to debate. That's no surprise. No sane competent scientist would ever engage me in a debate on this because the official story on WTC 7is indeed complete crackpot faith-based pseudo-science garbage. The CD theory I support is indeed the most scientific theory available for the WTC 7 collapse.

This whole thread just goes to show how JREF is in no way in support of true science or true skepticism. JREF is about gate-keeping. It absolutely sickens me how the unbridled genius of Randi has been besmirched by this repugnant behavior of JREF.

The only thing I find repugnant on this forum is the arrogant antagonistic behavior by people like you and some of your buddies.

Who in their right mind would want to debate an egotistic know-it-all? It wouldn’t be a debate; it would be a practice of futility. The only good thing about this debate, if of course it were to happen, would be that the AC would not be needed, not with all of the hand waving you perform.
 
Thomas refused to debate. That's no surprise. No sane competent scientist would ever engage me in a debate on this because the official story on WTC 7is indeed complete crackpot faith-based pseudo-science garbage. The CD theory I support is indeed the most scientific theory available for the WTC 7 collapse.

This whole thread just goes to show how JREF is in no way in support of true science or true skepticism. JREF is about gate-keeping. It absolutely sickens me how the unbridled genius of Randi has been besmirched by this repugnant behavior of JREF.

Why would any sane scientist want to debate with you? There are much better ways of passing the time.
 
They are skeptics and scientists (or at least think they are). They will understand basic scientific concepts taught in middle school. That's all they need to understand my position.

You would be at a big disadvantage given that you know bugger all about science. It would be pitiful to behold them wiping the floor with you.
 
There is the old addage that my father used to tell me all the time.

"Never argue with a fool. He will drag you down to his level of stupidity, and beat you with experience."

I think this is one reason why Dave Thomas et al. won't debate Cmatrix.
 
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Thomas refused to debate. That's no surprise. No sane competent scientist would ever engage me in a debate on this because the official story on WTC 7is indeed complete crackpot faith-based pseudo-science garbage. The CD theory I support is indeed the most scientific theory available for the WTC 7 collapse.

This whole thread just goes to show how JREF is in no way in support of true science or true skepticism. JREF is about gate-keeping. It absolutely sickens me how the unbridled genius of Randi has been besmirched by this repugnant behavior of JREF.

So, even though I made dozens of technical posts in your "WTC7 debate" thread, you say I "refused to debate"? This is revisionist history, plain and simple.

On one occasion, I again pointed out that you [cmatrix] were attacking a strawman model of your own creation, and, most importantly, you admitted to that.

After that, there was really no need to continue the "debate" charade. There were more interesting things to do, like pointing out your little "social commentary" on YouTube.

"Refused to debate"? Yeah, right.
 
I have officially sent a request to JREF to debate WTC 7 at TAM 2011.

I would like to debate any one (or all) of the distinguished people listed below at TAM regarding NIST's crackpot faith-based pseudo-science 9/11 theory on WTC 7.

Richard Dawkins, James Randi, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Bill Nye, Carol Tavris, Elizabeth Loftus, Penn & Teller, Jennifer Ouellette, Adam Savage, Eugenie Scott, Jennifer Michael Hecht, PZ Meyers, Pamela Gay, Michael Shermer, Rebecca Watson, Sara E. Mayhew.

I refuse to set foot on US soil due to the TSA radiation and fondling but will debate anytime by phone or web video.

As usual low-brow crackpot ridicule of this post will be ignored.

TAM seems to be a gathering of distinguished people, so I have to ask: Are you a distinguished person?

If not, why would you expect to be received in that forum when the audience is paying to see distinguished people?
 

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