Taco Bell sued

I think that their ad campaign in response to this, "Thanks for suing us.", is very telling. They seem to have every expectation that the truth will be a pleasant surprise to their customers, not an embarrassing exposé.

Well that's the purpose of an ad campaign, to make you think what they want you to think.

TB's taco filling has been processed to the extent it isn't "seasoned ground beef". That's all I can tell you.
 
I never asserted any such thing. What I said was there needs to be a substantial/significant percentage of their market who perceive the advertising in a way that inaccurately reflects the product regarding a factor that is material to their decision making. That's the test. Nothing else really matters. We can argue until we're blue the face about how big that percentage is, but short of a survey, we're not going to get very far.

Unfortunately, people keep yapping about stuff that doesn't matter, such as what I quote below:

Duplicity is not a requirement. I've repeatedly made that very important point. There does not have to be an intention to mislead.


If nothing else really matters then the lawsuit itself must provide some substantive evidence that "a substantial/significant percentage of their market" is perceiving "the advertising in a way that inaccurately reflects the product". Is that the case? Otherwise, by your logic the suit will be dismissed as without foundation.

What is that evidence? What constitutes a "substantial/significant percentage of their market"? How does one determine if the product is inaccurately reflected? If the customers are led to believe that they were purchasing a fast food taco with real hamburger in it what is inaccurate about that perception?
 
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I think you are willfully avoiding the point.

"Wrong" isn't even an issue. Entire industries are based on the idea that people are willing to pay less for a product which offers less. That isn't even germane to this discussion.

The fast food industry offers a product priced for its convenience, promptness, and labor-saving (or perhaps labor-avoidance) value. The quality of the product is completely subjective, and that is an arena in which they compete against each other.

Whether someone likes Hardee's or McDonald's or Wendy's better is nothing but personal opinion. Their customers know that they can make a better hamburger from scratch at home. (At least some of them probably can. ;)) They simply choose not to because these other factors are more valuable to them.

In many instances the question of whether or not they can make even the same product as inexpensively is in some doubt. I expect that it is not always the case that they can. In other instances they may not be able to make it at all. They may lack the facilities at that time, or even the skills. I am regularly surprised by the lack of cooking skills and experience that many people suffer from. I don't condemn their marketing choices as a result of this, nor do I condemn the businesses which cater to the needs of those people.

^This has nothing to do with accepting an inferior product because it's "cheap". :confused:
 
Well that's the purpose of an ad campaign, to make you think what they want you to think.

TB's taco filling has been processed to the extent it isn't "seasoned ground beef". That's all I can tell you.

Evidence supporting your position?
 
Well that's the purpose of an ad campaign, to make you think what they want you to think.

TB's taco filling has been processed to the extent it isn't "seasoned ground beef". That's all I can tell you.


Yes, you've been telling us that. Repeatedly, and at great length. But you haven't proven it.

All you have done so far is cite standards related to what constitutes "ground beef". You have not offered anything to support your contention that some transgression has occurred when the ground beef is then used in combination with other products to prepare a meal and those other products are clearly indicated by a casual inspection of the openly acknowledged listing of the contents of that meal.

Your personal belief that describing the ground beef as "seasoned" constitutes some sort of transgression is not sufficient. That's just your own opinion. If there had been any effort on the part of Taco Bell to conceal the nature of that seasoning I might be inclined to agree with you, but there has not been, so I don't.
 
^This has nothing to do with accepting an inferior product because it's "cheap". :confused:


Sure it does. Re-read the second paragraph. Try for comprehension this time. It has to do with that concern being utterly meaningless in this context.

The question of a product's quality relative to its price is totally irrelevant to this discussion. People pay what they feel is appropriate for the product they choose. No one is under the misapprehension that Taco Bell is haute cuisine. The question of whether or not they have been deceived may be relevant, but no evidence has been offered that they have.

Unca Yimmy maintains that the veracity of the advertising is not even relevant, so all that remains is whether or not people are getting the product they expect.

No one, least of all you, has offered any evidence that a "substantial/significant percentage of their market" has not.
 
Ok, UY, so how much beef, by percentage, must be contained within the "seasoned ground beef" for it to be accurate?

Well, Bob, it doesn't actually matter. This is a consumer's rights case, not a case about regulations. Once again, because so many people don't seem to pay attention:

Company says A.
1) Is A true? Yes.

2) Does A contain anything that is untrue?
If Yes, the advertising must change (or the product, but we'll ignore that option for convenience). Go to #4.

3) Does A imply something about the product that either by wording or omission?
If No, then Case Closed.
If Yes, Continue...

3.1) Is the implication true?
If Yes, then Case Closed.'
If No, then Continue...

3.2) Is the implication material to consumers acting reasonably?
If No, then Case Closed.
If Yes, then Continue...

3.3) Is there a significant/substantial percentage of consumers acting reasonably who would perceive the above implication?
If No, then Case Closed.
If Yes, then Company must change their advertising.
Continue...

4) Did the company knowingly misrepresent themselves?
If No, then No Damages.
If Yes, Continue...

4.1) When notified of the problem, did the company remedy the situation?
If Yes, then No Damages.
If No, then Determine Damages.

That's how this thing plays out. Here are some examples:

Company says, "Buy one gallon of gold paint for $14.99!"

1) The offer is true. They have one gallon cans of gold colored paint for sale at $14.99.

2) Nothing is untrue.

3) Does it carry an implication? Yes. It's possible someone could believe the paint was intended for use on gold (the element) or contain gold.

3.1) The implication is not true. The paint is not intended for use on gold nor does it contain gold.

3.2) Is it material? Sure, if you happen to be looking for something to paint gold or paint with gold in it.

3.3) Would a substantial number of people get that impression? Nope. Maybe some knucklehead would, but the can says "interior paint" and gold is so damned expensive there's no way they could sell it for $15/gallon. It's just not very likely that many people would get the implication above. Case closed.

Company says, "New, super fast computer with a genuine Intel chip inside!"

1) This is true.

2) Nothing is untrue.

3) Implication? Yes. It implies an Intel CPU instead of an AMD CPU.

3.1) The implication is not true. It has an AMD CPU. The Intel chip is on the built-in network card.

3.2) A reasonable person would consider the type of CPU as important to the purchase.

3.3) Lots of people would assume that the CPU on the computer was from Intel considering the Intel Inside marketing campaign.

Hopefully you get the drift now. Essentially this is the above is the decision tree for cases like this. I just slapped it together, but it pretty much gets the point across. Here's how it applies in this case.

1) All true.

2) Nothing untrue.

3) There's an implication by omission - no mention of the extenders, so the implication is that it's only beef and seasoning.

3.1) It's not just beef and seasoning. There's yeast, isolated oat product, oats, and some other stuff.

3.2) Somebody buying a taco cares what the primary ingredient is, so it's material.

3.3) This is the unknown - we don't know how many people would draw such a conclusion. What seems to confuse people is that just because there are those who don't draw that conclusion doesn't mean that 3, 3.1, and 3.2 don't apply. There is no implicit "everyone" in those tests - it's just a somebody.

When it comes to the FTC, which is not a player in this case, but I'm confident the court will lean on their precedents, the deal with this in different ways. In the Intel example, the court would probably conclude that it's so obviously misleading that they don't need to see evidence of consumer confusion. They would just rule against the company.

In the gold paint example, the court would probably in a very nice way say, "Okay, that's just stupid. No reasonable person would think that a $15 gallon of gold paint contains gold nor are people likely to buy a gallon of house paint to paint - who the hell paints gold anyway? They would toss the or rule in favor of the company.

Now, my opinion is that the court would want to look at the Taco Bell case further for several reasons:

1) Taco Bell calls it taco meat filling internally and something else externally while all of the other components have the same name internally and externally.

2) If Taco Bell wanted to sell just their taco filling in individual packets, they could not legally call it seasoned ground beef nor could a consumer even buy from a grocery store seasoned ground beef that contained those meat extenders. This is good evidence that at least some people might think the filling doesn't contain any extenders.

3) If a competitor wanted to market tacos without extenders, they would call it seasoned ground beef as well, which would be confusing to customers. They could advertise it as 100% seasoned ground beef or something similar. However, Taco Bell sells chicken and steak tacos. Neither one contains extenders like isolated oat product or oats - they just contain the ordinary starches used as thickeners for seasoning. If they don't use some other descriptor to indicate that there are no extenders, then why should anyone else? And why should they market their seasoned ground beef with extenders the same way they do those without?

In this case I would expect to see some customer surveys examining expectations based on the marketing materials and actual ingredients. Creating such a survey would be tricky, but I think it will come down to that.

At this point, all I'm really interested in debating is whether people think my decision tree is substantially incorrect. Thus, Bob, I'm not going to play the "what percentage" game with you.

On a side note to those who claim that isolated oat product is to keep it moist. I call ********. They don't put it on their other meat products. How come those don't dry out? It's being used as a meat extender. Jack in the Box does it with texturized soy protein. They also call it "spicy beef" so they are probably watching anxiously to see what happens in California.

I can see it now - a little asterisk on Taco Bell's ads that reads, "It is known to the State of California that the seasoned ground beef in our tacos is actually taco meat filling."
 
Unca Yimmy maintains that the veracity of the advertising is not even relevant, so all that remains is whether or not people are getting the product they expect.
Again, you are wrong about what I am claiming. The truth is relevant, but it's not the only component. If it were untrue, there would be no need to proceed to the implications stage.

Have you ever wondered why the witness oath refers to the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Think about it.

No one, least of all you, has offered any evidence that a "substantial/significant percentage of their market" has not.
I know I haven't. Never claimed to. Can't possibly do it. I'm just saying that's what the court will ultimately consider since the tacos contain seasoned ground beef, which is true. They also contain seasoned meat extenders, which is omitted from the advertising. Calling it taco meat filling would imply that there is something else besides seasoned ground beef, which is the requested remedy.
 
Now, my opinion is that the court would want to look at the Taco Bell case further for several reasons:
Let's go point by point here:

1) Taco Bell calls it taco meat filling internally and something else externally while all of the other components have the same name internally and externally.
Why is that suspect? How do you know that all the other components have the same name internally and externally? Do you have a citation for that information?

2) If Taco Bell wanted to sell just their taco filling in individual packets, they could not legally call it seasoned ground beef nor could a consumer even buy from a grocery store seasoned ground beef that contained those meat extenders. This is good evidence that at least some people might think the filling doesn't contain any extenders.
Evidence that their taco filling could not be legally called seasoned ground beef? Evidence that the oat fiber is being used as an extender? You've provided none, despite it being demonstrated that oat fiber is commonly used as a flavor additive, also despite the oat fiber being listed under the heading of "seasoning" instead of as a stand alone ingredient as all extenders must be listed. Back up your claims, or drop them.

3) If a competitor wanted to market tacos without extenders, they would call it seasoned ground beef as well, which would be confusing to customers. They could advertise it as 100% seasoned ground beef or something similar. However, Taco Bell sells chicken and steak tacos. Neither one contains extenders like isolated oat product or oats - they just contain the ordinary starches used as thickeners for seasoning. If they don't use some other descriptor to indicate that there are no extenders, then why should anyone else? And why should they market their seasoned ground beef with extenders the same way they do those without?
Now this is just your ignorance showing through. And a dumb freaking question to boot. Why does a filling that is supposed to be wet need something to help it STAY wet, when fillings that aren't supposed to be wet don't need something to help them stay wet? Hmmm... Gee, because one is supposed to stay wet, and the others aren't?

You are still asserting that the oat fiber and oats are an extender, when you have NO evidence to support that assertion. The premise of your assertions is seriously flawed by that assumption.

So. Here's where you put up or shut up. Prove that the oat fiber and oats in Taco Bell's seasoned ground beef is actually being used as an extender. Show some evidence that would even come close to supporting that line of reasoning. Demonstrate that there is an amount significant enough, with enough water added, to actually extend the meat to any degree.

On a side note to those who claim that isolated oat product is to keep it moist. I call ********. They don't put it on their other meat products. How come those don't dry out? It's being used as a meat extender. Jack in the Box does it with texturized soy protein. They also call it "spicy beef" so they are probably watching anxiously to see what happens in California.
Were they to use it as an extender, it would have to be listed as a stand alone ingredient, just as Jack in the Box lists their soy protein as a stand alone ingredient. It could not be listed as a "seasoning". Call ******** all you like, but you're ignorant of what the ingredient is, all the various properties of it and why anyone might care to take advantage of those properties, as well as how labeling for it is required. You're also apparently ignorant of how fast food equipment works, the effects of holding food on steam tables, and the physical property differences between drastically different substances (gee... why don't chunks of chicken breast, which are not supposed to be WET, need an ingredient to help them retain moisture... hmmm).

You claim it's being used as an extender, with NO evidence for the claim, and even evidence to the contrary -- and insist on attempting to call ******** on those of us with the knowledge and expertise AND the citations to prove you wrong, in the face of those very citations.

Sounds to me like you just don't want to admit to being wrong on this one. Fine. Don't admit to it. But don't keep on with this line of argumentation. It makes you look pretty darned stupid.
 
If nothing else really matters then the lawsuit itself must provide some substantive evidence that "a substantial/significant percentage of their market" is perceiving "the advertising in a way that inaccurately reflects the product". Is that the case? Otherwise, by your logic the suit will be dismissed as without foundation.

Yes and no. As I explained in a subsequent post, when it comes to FTC cases, which I am using as a reference point because of the similarities, the court can rule on its own that it is very likely that a substantial portion of the public will perceive something material that isn't true. I linked to this (twice) several pages ago. They can forgo any direct evidence of consumer confusion and in effect conclude that it's there.

I don't think that will happen in this case. I think it will come down to asking people, and there will be thrilling arguments about what is a reasonable way to find out this information.

What is that evidence? What constitutes a "substantial/significant percentage of their market"? How does one determine if the product is inaccurately reflected? If the customers are led to believe that they were purchasing a fast food taco with real hamburger in it what is inaccurate about that perception?
No evidence has been provided as to the percentage of customers who may have an incorrect impression. That comes at the trial.

"Their market" is defined as the people who see their ads. Those are the ones are affected. In case you've never purchased advertising before, the sellers typically provide demographics regarding their audience.

Substantial and significant are my terms. I'm not sure of the exact legal terms or the exact test they apply. Judges sometimes make...what's it called...uh...judgments!

One way to determine if a product is inaccurately reflected is with your brain. This is a routine matter. The English language is not a computer program, so we're constantly making interpretations. Courts do this every single day. Another way is to get a representative sample of their target market, present the exact marketing materials, and then present several different versions of the actual ingredients. Then ask them which, if any, would you reasonably expect to be the ingredient list implied by the marketing material. It ain't rocket surgery.

If the customers are led to believe that they were purchasing a fast food taco with real hamburger in it what is inaccurate about that perception? That's not actually the question that should be asked. The proper question is what I described above. I think most people would agree that if the mixture was 99% "seasonings" that included oats and 1% ground beef, that it would be "true" that the taco contained ground beef but misleading to actually refer to it as "seasoned ground beef." Since there is no strict definition, you have to do the tests I described.

I'm stunned that people seem to find this so baffling.
 
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I'm stunned that anybody gives a crap. All this issue is doing is making me want to go to Taco Bell, and I already bought a Grande Meal once today.

(it was all tacos)
 
Why is that suspect? How do you know that all the other components have the same name internally and externally? Do you have a citation for that information?
Cheese has a legal definition as does lettuce, so that's what they are called when they are sold. I'm pretty sure tortilla has a formal definition as well, but I'm not willing to do the leg work to prove it.

Evidence that their taco filling could not be legally called seasoned ground beef?
If sold in a grocery store, it could not be called seasoned ground beef. That's been established already. That law doesn't apply here, but it goes towards public perception.

Evidence that the oat fiber is being used as an extender?
That's how oat fiber is marketed. It is not used as part of the seasoning in any of their other products. Those contain the typical starches like modified corn starch and wheat flour. Your claim of retaining moisture on a steam table is not well founded since none of their other products use it.

You've provided none, despite it being demonstrated that oat fiber is commonly used as a flavor additive,
You have not presented any such evidence. Oat fiber is actually flavorless. It provides texture and soaks up lots of water.

Now this is just your ignorance showing through. And a dumb freaking question to boot.
Okay, I'm done with you in this thread. When you can deal with me reasonably, I'll respond in kind. But for now, I'm not going to put up with histrionics over the ingredients in taco meat filling. I really don't care that much.
 
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Yes, you do, otherwise you wouldn't have responded so much.

No, really, I don't care all that much about what Taco Bell does. I don't care that the suit was brought. I don't care one way or another how it is ultimately ruled. It bothered me that so many people seemed to misunderstand how the case should be approached, so I felt the urge to correct it and had the time.

I enjoy a good argument regardless of the subject. However, if I don't care about the subject itself, I won't put up with histrionics and insults. When I do care, I'll put up with a lot. The VisionFromFeeling saga is a great example. I caught tons of ****, got threatened with lawsuits, received unwanted phone calls, got accused of adultery and of being a bully, but I stuck with it.

The ingredients of a fast-food taco? Not so much.
 
Ground beef doesn't have oats in it, taco filling does.
So you're blaming Taco Bell because people didn't realize its taco filling was taco filling? Seriously? That is as crazy as the lady who sued because "crunch berries" have no actual berries. Context matters. Taco Bell described its taco filling as "seasoned ground beef" taco filling.
 
Once again, every case is evaluated on its own merits. It's pointless to ask about other scenarios since the only one that matters is this one. The exact words. The exact imagery. The exact market.

This.

Although the law purports to provide a bright line separating right from wrong, determining whether any particular act close to that line is on the right or wrong side is difficult. That's why we have courts, and juries. Society has decided it's just not possible to objectively decide all cases. So we've a system to argue the difficult cases, and subjectively (within bounds) determine whether a specific committed act was right or wrong. Such decisions are guided by statute and case law. But unless the circumstances are *exactly* like some other already-determined case (and they *never* are), the decision could be different.

In nerd-speak, the line is a fractal.

which is why:
Ok, UY, so how much beef, by percentage, must be contained within the "seasoned ground beef" for it to be accurate?
although an interesting question if the Yimmy's are coming over for dinner, is not very relevant to TB's problem.
 
Yes, you've been telling us that. Repeatedly, and at great length. But you haven't proven it.

Evidence supporting your position?

What Taco Bell uses as seasoning is well beyond what's listed as seasonings on the USDA definition sheet.
The manufacturer knows this and properly labels it Taco Filling.

Taco filling is not ground meat, nor is it "seasoned ground meat", it is it's own well defined thing under the regulations.
 
What Taco Bell uses as seasoning is well beyond what's listed as seasonings on the USDA definition sheet.
The manufacturer knows this and properly labels it Taco Filling.

Taco filling is not ground meat, nor is it "seasoned ground meat", it is it's own well defined thing under the regulations.

A) Those regulations do not apply to Taco Bell
B) Links to the list of USDA definitions sheet and the regulation where those definitions apply to restaurants?
 

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