Taco Bell sued

[quadraginta]

You know, i was taken aback a bit at the meatloaf comment. To explain.

I like crappy food. I will admit it, give me something that was squeezed out of a robot somewhere, and injected with chemicals to make me actually want to eat it, and i am good. White castle, taco bell, slim jims, you name it.

( I don't dislike well made food, i just don't have the "ick" tendency when it comes to food that was probably made by Dr. Forester.)

But i wouldn't really put meatloaf in that category , i mean when i think of meatloaf i kind of think of the catered dinners MCI used to put on for their employees. ( while i don't live in a huge city, i live in one big enough to have a few very high quality restaurants. ) they went to the best restaurant in the city, basically rented them out for the day and had them crank out gourmet ( i know i am probably using the word wrong, but what i mean is food that would tend to cost 30 dollars + a plate. Or food that has been prepared by someone who has had the appropriate training, and been given access to very high quality ingredients. ) food en masse. ( contradiction in terms, i know. )

One of the best items from my 3 or so years of going was the meatloaf. Liking poor food lets you really be able to tell when something is using a higher grade of meat, and this stuff must have been about 5 minutes removed from the cow, and seasoned with spices that took the lord of the rings gang to retrieve. I mean when i am looking at fillet minion , and a piece of meatloaf in a buffet ( bad word to use, as it implies lack fo quality, but no idea what else to call it. ) and i can't make a decision, that says something right there.

Just for the purposes of clarification.

The beginning of my post with the meatloaf anecdote was intended to be facetious. I had thought that the parody of a 12 step meeting introduction would have been sufficient to make that clear. Apparently not.

I don't seem to have the knack of using smilies in the appropriate places. It seems I either use too many or not enough. I guess I should have included one that time, so ... somewhat belatedly ...

.

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It should be noted that the post itself was in response to comments about the relative culinary aesthetics of oats as an ingredient in a meat dish. I was supplying an example of a quite respectable, presumably well known, and tasty recipe which used oats as a flavor enhancer. Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough.

Mea culpa and all that. No slurs against meatloaf were intended. Quite the contrary.

 

[BenBurch]

Are you referring to those posts were you listed unsourced definitions and ingredient lists without any commentary as to your point? If so, I mostly ignored them.

As for me being "wrong" about something, my facts are accurate and sourced. My opinions are simply my opinions just as yours are your own. That you continue to bring up other scenarios demonstrates an almost willful ignorance about how these types of cases are handled. Each situation is unique based on it the specific wording, imagery, context and market. Bringing up other products with other wording, other imagery, other contexts and other markets is just a waste of time and proves nothing.

Only an idiot would have had a problem finding those on the sites for the referenced restaurants. I didn't think those required a source therefore.

 

[BenBurch]

Snopes on Arby's (in case anybody thinks I made that up) http://www.snopes.com/food/ingredient/arbys.asp


All the Hardee's ingredients;

http://www.hardees.com/system/pdf_m...t and Allergen Guide 2010_1122.pdf?1290465451

 

[BenBurch]

Another case in point; Pork And Beans.

You know that time cube of fat you find (usually) in every can?

That's all the pork there is.

But note that it is not called "Bean and Pork."

http://www.campbellfoodservice.com/details.aspx?code=574

"INGREDIENTS

Cooked pea beans, water, tomato puree (water, tomato paste), high fructose corn syrup, sugar, modified food starch, pork, salt, citric acid, distilled vinegar, oleoresin paprika and flavoring."

Let's see, Hmmm... Pork is the SEVENTH ingredient after two kinds of sugar and starch!

 

[BenBurch]

Van Camp's Pork and Beans;

Made by
ConAgra Foods, Inc.

Ingredients
Prepared White Beans, Water, Tomato Puree (Water, Tomato Paste)Sugar, Less than 2% of: High Fructose Corn Syrup, Salt, Distilled Vinegar, Pork, Baking Soda, Onion Powder, Natural and Artificial Flavors, Spice, Calcium Chloride (a Firming Agent)

I'll let you see if you can find the source of this one on your own...

 

[Furcifer]

But lets be honest here, we are talking about taco bell. The place that has a main selling point of being cheap. The place that everyone, including those who like it know is going to turn your stomach into an alchemists pot in about 2 hours.

If I made 50 soft tacos at home I could do it for less than $50 and use real ground meat. Taco Bell isn't as cheap as it once was, at least not around here. Last time I went to Taco Bell I got a Volcano crunch wrap, a 7-layer and a fries supreme and it was about $10.

I'm not sure "cheap" should be used as an excuse to mislead customers, or let them believe they are getting something they aren't. If a product is processed they should say it's processed.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

If I made 50 soft tacos at home I could do it for less than $50 and use real ground meat. Taco Bell isn't as cheap as it once was, at least not around here. Last time I went to Taco Bell I got a Volcano crunch wrap, a 7-layer and a fries supreme and it was about $10.

I'm not sure "cheap" should be used as an excuse to mislead customers, or let them believe they are getting something they aren't. If a product is processed they should say it's processed.

*sigh*

Taco Bell does use real beef. I don't see where you have provided any evidence supporting your assertion that Taco Bell doesn't. In fact, this is the problem with UY's claim as well.

There is ZERO evidence that Taco Bell's ground beef is anything less than what it's advertised as - seasoned ground beef. There is ZERO evidence, besides UY's personal anedoctes, that Taco Bell is engaged in deceptive advertising.

They advertise their tacos have 100% ground beef in them, this is true. Taco Bell advertises that their seasoned ground beef consists of beef, water, seasonings, and perservatives, this is true. Taco Bell's seasoned ground beef mixture are akin to what I would expect after having prepared a similar meal at home (although I wouldn't add oats, the percentage of beef in my taco meat filling is roughly akin to that of Taco Bell's).

So we have assertion on one side with 3body and UY, and on the other side, rational people (including a number of cooks/chefs) expressing that the percentages as presented by Taco Bell is what we would expect to see in any beef taco.


Whatever your personal vendettas against Taco Bell and/or Oats may be, they have no play here where your evidence is sorely lacking.

 

[BenBurch]

Actually, BobTheDonkey, Taco Bell uses 100% ground up fetuses from Planned Parenthood abortion clinics. I know it's true because I read it somewhere on the Intertubes.

 

[not daSkeptic]

Why we need a bazillion pages to get that, I dunno.

People who identify as skeptics tend to be driven by a desire to prove others wrong rather than a desire to actually learn something.

ETA: It's quite pathetic actually that we have 14 pages of argument when not one of us has the data this issue is supposedly based upon.

 

[quadraginta]

If I made 50 soft tacos at home I could do it for less than $50 and use real ground meat. Taco Bell isn't as cheap as it once was, at least not around here. Last time I went to Taco Bell I got a Volcano crunch wrap, a 7-layer and a fries supreme and it was about $10.

So you think that comparing the cost of prepared food purchased from a fast food restaurant to food made at home is valid, instead of, say, comparing it to prepared food from some other kind of restaurant?

Do you make fifty tacos at home very often?

Do you ever add anything to the ground beef?

I'm not sure "cheap" should be used as an excuse to mislead customers, or let them believe they are getting something they aren't. If a product is processed they should say it's processed.

Is it your belief that the average customer is fooled into thinking that buying from a restaurant is cheaper than making it themselves?

For that matter, is it even always true that preparing at home is cheaper?

 

[Furcifer]

There is ZERO evidence that Taco Bell's ground beef is anything less than what it's advertised as - seasoned ground beef.


Whatever your personal vendettas against Taco Bell and/or Oats may be, they have no play here where your evidence is sorely lacking.

Ground beef doesn't have oats in it, taco filling does.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Ground beef doesn't have oats in it, taco filling does.

That may be. But Taco Bell's ingredient, the one which we're arguing over, is it's "seasoned ground beef". See, the word "seasoning" in there...that changes the definition of the term, it means something has been added to the ground beef to improve/alter it's flavor/texture. Seasoned ground beef has additives, that's why it's called "seasoned ground beef" instead of "ground beef".

That you cannot seem to comprehend that "seasoned ground beef" is not the same as "ground beef", nor that it excludes "ground beef", does not make your argument correct.

 

[Furcifer]

So you think that comparing the cost of prepared food purchased from a fast food restaurant to food made at home is valid, instead of, say, comparing it to prepared food from some other kind of restaurant?

It isn't really cheap if I can make it myself for less at a higher quality. It may be convenient, but not cheap.
Infer what you will from that, it's just a statement of fact.

 

[Furcifer]

That you cannot seem to comprehend that "seasoned ground beef" is not the same as "ground beef", nor that it does it exclude "ground beef", is not my problem.

And that you can't see the implications of allowing companies to put whatever the heck they want into food and selling it as something it isn't, under the guise of "seasoning", isn't my fault.

There's so much bad logic in this thread it's unbelievable. You could call just about anything "seasoned beef" by your standards. If Oats are a "seasoning", why aren't onions, green peppers, olives, potatoes and corn?

 

[quadraginta]

So you think that comparing the cost of prepared food purchased from a fast food restaurant to food made at home is valid, instead of, say, comparing it to prepared food from some other kind of restaurant?

It isn't really cheap if I can make it myself for less at a higher quality. It may be convenient, but not cheap.
Infer what you will from that, it's just a statement of fact.

I see that you are unwilling to answer the question which I asked, and instead made one up to answer which you liked better.

I inferred nothing. I asked if you believed the two things you were comparing are really equivalent?

Convenience is a value which customers are willing to pay for. It is, in fact, one of the primary reasons for fast food restaurants. That's where the name comes from, after all.

You also said

"I'm not sure "cheap" should be used as an excuse to mislead customers, or let them believe they are getting something they aren't."
​

I asked if you believed that the average consumer was unaware that they could prepare food at home for less. Do you believe that they are unaware that they are paying a premium for speed and convenience?

Leaving aside any consideration of having someone else do the work for them?

 

[Furcifer]

People who identify as skeptics tend to be driven by a desire to prove others wrong rather than a desire to actually learn something.

ETA: It's quite pathetic actually that we have 14 pages of argument when not one of us has the data this issue is supposedly based upon.

I believe you are correct in this observation.

My complaint lies with what I know, ground beef doesn't have oats and maltodextrin in it. I believe allowing a company to add these things to ground beef under the premise of "seasoning" and then say the product is "seasoned ground beef" is misleading.

It should be interesting to see what liberties they will be allowed.

 

[Furcifer]

I see that you are unwilling to answer the question which I asked, and instead made one up to answer which you liked better.

I inferred nothing. I asked if you believed the two things you were comparing are really equivalent?

Convenience is a value which customers are willing to pay for. It is, in fact, one of the primary reasons for fast food restaurants. That's where the name comes from, after all.

You also said

"I'm not sure "cheap" should be used as an excuse to mislead customers, or let them believe they are getting something they aren't."
​

I asked if you believed that the average consumer was unaware that they could prepare food at home for less. Do you believe that they are unaware that they are paying a premium for speed and convenience?

Leaving aside any consideration of having someone else do the work for them?

I think you're missing the point.

To say it's OK to expect inferior quality because it's cheap is wrong. If I can make it for less without the resources of an international company at a higher quality.

 

[quadraginta]

I believe you are correct in this observation.

My complaint lies with what I know, ground beef doesn't have oats and maltodextrin in it. I believe allowing a company to add these things to ground beef under the premise of "seasoning" and then say the product is "seasoned ground beef" is misleading.

It should be interesting to see what liberties they will be allowed.

Did their ground beef have these things in it prior to their mixing it with other seasonings as part of a meal preparation?

Have you ever prepared a meal which included ground beef and mixed anything else with it?

In spite of Unca Yimmy's assertions to the contrary it is not clear to me that any substantial or even significant number of people have actually been deceived by Taco Bell's descriptions of their product.

I suppose it would be possible to find some people somewhere that have, but that only speaks to the capabilities of some people, not to the duplicity of Taco Bell's advertising.

I think that their ad campaign in response to this, "Thanks for suing us.", is very telling. They seem to have every expectation that the truth will be a pleasant surprise to their customers, not an embarrassing exposé.

It seems unlikely that they would devote that sort of expense to calling attention to their shortcomings.

 

[Uncayimmy]

In spite of Unca Yimmy's assertions to the contrary it is not clear to me that any substantial or even significant number of people have actually been deceived by Taco Bell's descriptions of their product.

I never asserted any such thing. What I said was there needs to be a substantial/significant percentage of their market who perceive the advertising in a way that inaccurately reflects the product regarding a factor that is material to their decision making. That's the test. Nothing else really matters. We can argue until we're blue the face about how big that percentage is, but short of a survey, we're not going to get very far.

Unfortunately, people keep yapping about stuff that doesn't matter, such as what I quote below:

I suppose it would be possible to find some people somewhere that have, but that only speaks to the capabilities of some people, not to the duplicity of Taco Bell's advertising.

Duplicity is not a requirement. I've repeatedly made that very important point. There does not have to be an intention to mislead.

 

[quadraginta]

I think you're missing the point.

To say it's OK to expect inferior quality because it's cheap is wrong. If I can make it for less without the resources of an international company at a higher quality.

I think you are willfully avoiding the point.

"Wrong" isn't even an issue. Entire industries are based on the idea that people are willing to pay less for a product which offers less. That isn't even germane to this discussion.

The fast food industry offers a product priced for its convenience, promptness, and labor-saving (or perhaps labor-avoidance) value. The quality of the product is completely subjective, and that is an arena in which they compete against each other.

Whether someone likes Hardee's or McDonald's or Wendy's better is nothing but personal opinion. Their customers know that they can make a better hamburger from scratch at home. (At least some of them probably can. ) They simply choose not to because these other factors are more valuable to them.

In many instances the question of whether or not they can make even the same product as inexpensively is in some doubt. I expect that it is not always the case that they can. In other instances they may not be able to make it at all. They may lack the facilities at that time, or even the skills. I am regularly surprised by the lack of cooking skills and experience that many people suffer from. I don't condemn their marketing choices as a result of this, nor do I condemn the businesses which cater to the needs of those people.