Taco Bell sued

[Furcifer]

A) Those regulations do not apply to Taco Bell
B) Links to the list of USDA definitions sheet and the regulation where those definitions apply to restaurants?

Let's pretend they don't apply, they still get taco filling and call it ground beef, it's misleading.

You can find Roger's post and the link yourself.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Let's pretend they don't apply, they still get taco filling and call it ground beef, it's misleading.

You can find Roger's post and the link yourself.

*sigh*

A package labeled "taco meat filling" to keep the idiots that work at Taco Bell from not knowing what's in the package is hardly evidence that Taco Bell is being deceptive.

For ****'s sake, I know I've asked this question before, and then answered it because you refuse to, but you do realize that:

1) 88% > 40%
2) the "taco meat filling" label only has a minimum requirement,

therefore the label of "taco meat filling" does not indicate what you claim it does, right?

 

[Furcifer]

A package labeled "taco meat filling" to keep the idiots that work at Taco Bell from not knowing what's in the package is hardly evidence that Taco Bell is being deceptive.

Wrong. It's indisputable fact, the meat packers MUST label it properly under the law.


They (the supplier) label it properly under the law "taco filling". Taco Bell claims it is "seasoned ground beef". It isn't, it's misleading, they must stop doing it.

You've been told numerous times Taco Bell doesn't have to be deceptive, only that the customer feels deceived.

ETA: I think the 36% claim is just padding. They get Taco Bell to admit it's whatever percentage other than 36% (88%), then they smack them around with the fact ground beef has to be 100% beef.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Wrong. It's indisputable fact, the meat packers MUST label it properly under the law.


They (the supplier) label it properly under the law "taco filling". Taco Bell claims it is "seasoned ground beef". It isn't, it's misleading, they must stop doing it.

You've been told numerous times Taco Bell doesn't have to be deceptive, only that the customer feels deceived.

And I keep telling you that 'taco meat filling' only indicates that there is over 40% ground beef. Since 88% > 40%, both "Taco meat filling" and "seasoned ground beef" are accurate and applicable.

You can keep trying to ignore this little fact, but there it remains - staring you in the face. Showing just what depths of denial you are willing to sink to just so you don't have to admit that maybe your knee jerk reaction/hatred of Taco Bell/whatever is unjustified.

No one goes to Taco Bell expecting their seasoned ground beef to be 100% ground beef. Nor do the USDA regulations apply to Taco Bell.

It is most definitely not misleading for Taco Bell to advertise their tacos contain "seasoned ground beef" when all the seasonings/flavorings/etc are included in their ingredients list for "seasoned ground beef". Especially not when beef makes up 88% of the seasoned ground beef.

 

[Furcifer]

And I keep telling you that 'taco meat filling' only indicates that there is over 40% ground beef. Since 88% > 40%, both "Taco meat filling" and "seasoned ground beef" are accurate and applicable.

Nope. If it were ground beef the label would indicate "ground beef" not just "beef".

You can keep trying to ignore this little fact, but there it remains - staring you in the face. Showing just what depths of denial you are willing to sink to just so you don't have to admit that maybe your knee jerk reaction/hatred of Taco Bell/whatever is unjustified.

I don't "hate" Taco Bell, in fact if I do eat fast food Taco Bell is my preferred choice.

No one goes to Taco Bell expecting their seasoned ground beef to be 100% ground beef. Nor do the USDA regulations apply to Taco Bell.

Wrong.

The fact there is a lawsuit proves some people do expect "ground beef".

It is most definitely not misleading for Taco Bell to advertise their tacos contain "seasoned ground beef" when all the seasonings/flavorings/etc are included in their ingredients list for "seasoned ground beef". Especially not when beef makes up 88% of the seasoned ground beef.

This statement contradicts itself, ground beef has 100% beef, not 88%. Therefore it cannot be correct.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

The fact there is a lawsuit proves some people do expect "ground beef".

They expect 100% ground beef out of a "seasoned ground beef" labeled and cooked item? Is that the majority of TB customers or a few outliers? And is it a reasonable expectation given the name and ingredients list? What, you're going to argue next that it's not reasonable to expect "seasoned ground beef" to be anything other than 100% ground beef? Really? That's your argument? Good luck with that one.

This statement contradicts itself, ground beef has 100% beef, not 88%. Therefore it cannot be correct.

Ahh, but this isn't marketed as ground beef, this is seasoned ground beef - which means, by definition, that additives have been added to adjust flavor/texture and as it's not sold solely as ground beef in lieu of being sold as a prepared food, the USDA rules do not apply.

 

[Furcifer]

They expect 100% ground beef out of a "seasoned ground beef" labeled and cooked item? Is that the majority of TB customers or a few outliers? And is it a reasonable expectation given the name and ingredients list? What, you're going to argue next that it's not reasonable to expect "seasoned ground beef" to be anything other than 100% ground beef? Really? That's your argument? Good luck with that one.

That's why I said, only an idiot thinks "ground beef" is less than 100% beef. Taco Bell my be relying on that to prove it's case. It won't make it as a class action if only "a few outliers" believe "ground beef" is anything but 100% beef. Once people find out it's "seasoned" with oats and silicon dioxide (the poison in desiccant packages) I doubt if they will find it reasonable to call it "seasoned ground beef".

Ahh, but this isn't marketed as ground beef, this is seasoned ground beef - which means, by definition, that additives have been added to adjust flavor/texture and as it's not sold solely as ground beef in lieu of being sold as a prepared food, the USDA rules do not apply.

Right, and when they hall out a bag or oats and all the other crap Taco Bell puts in their taco filling people aren't going to believe for a minute it's just "seasoning". And when they compare it to the USDA guidelines of what is considered "seasoning" it's going to be even harder to prove they aren't being misleading by calling it "seasoned ground beef" instead of taco filling, like the supplier is legally required to label the product before they ship it.

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

That's why I said, only an idiot thinks "ground beef" is less than 100% beef. Taco Bell my be relying on that to prove it's case. It won't make it as a class action if only "a few outliers" believe "ground beef" is anything but 100% beef. Once people find out it's "seasoned" with oats and silicon dioxide (the poison in desiccant packages) I doubt if they will find it reasonable to call it "seasoned ground beef".


What people expect and what is really what is don't always agree..

Right, and when they hall out a bag or oats and all the other crap Taco Bell puts in their taco filling people aren't going to believe for a minute it's just "seasoning". And when they compare it to the USDA guidelines of what is considered "seasoning" it's going to be even harder to prove they aren't being misleading by calling it "seasoned ground beef" instead of taco filling, like the supplier is legally required to label the product before they ship it.

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[Furcifer]

What people expect and what is really what is don't always agree..

And it's the job of the USDA and FTC to ensure what people expect is what they get. Or at least keep in in line with what is reasonable.

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

And it's the job of the USDA and FTC to ensure what people expect is what they get. Or at least keep in in line with what is reasonable.

Er...
ETA: I think we disagree on reasonable

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[Emet]

FWIW:

No-nonsense crisis management well received by Taco Bell fans
(...)
Analysis shows that consumers on Facebook and YouTube have rallied behind Taco Bell and continue to be supportive. While it is to be expected that the chain’s 5.5 million Facebook fans would support the brand, WaveMetrix social media monitoring shows that the no-nonsense YouTube statement was also generally received positively. With only 3% of consumers in these locations saying the lawsuit will “keep them away” from Taco Bell, the swift and no-nonsense approach seems to have minimised damage and even fostered some increasing brand loyalty.

http://wave.wavemetrix.com/content/no-nonsense-crisis-management-well-received-taco-bell-fans-00700

 

[LTC8K6]

The fact there is a lawsuit proves some people do expect "ground beef".

No it doesn't. A lawsuit proves nothing whatsoever.

 

[Furcifer]

Er...
ETA: I think we disagree on reasonable

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Probably

As UY may have pointed out, using "seasoned ground beef" to describe what they use at Taco Bell is unfair to another competitor that may wish to use "real" ground beef to distinguish their product and provide something fresher or of higher quality.

If you selected you own beef, ground it up, cooked and seasoned it to put in your tacos wouldn't you like the term "seasoned ground beef" to mean something other than a frozen reheated product with a bunch of chemicals and questionable fillers or preservatives?

 

[Furcifer]

No it doesn't. A lawsuit proves nothing whatsoever.

It proves their are people that expect "seasoned ground beef" to be "seasoned ground beef".

Your conjecture about the true motivations of litigants is irrelevant.

 

[Emet]

It proves their are people that expect "seasoned ground beef" to be "seasoned ground beef".

(my bolding)

Interesting. Only one person was named in the suit. Who are the people?

 

[Furcifer]

(my bolding)

Interesting. Only one person was named in the suit. Who are the people?

Potentially every US citizen.

 

[JoelKatz]

They (the supplier) label it properly under the law "taco filling". Taco Bell claims it is "seasoned ground beef". It isn't, it's misleading, they must stop doing it.

The difference is that the suppliers are trying to identify what it is. Taco Bell is trying to identify what kind of taco filling it is. To describe a taco filling as "taco filling" would be utterly useless. Taco Bell only calls it "seasoned ground beef" in a context where everyone already knows that it's a taco filling.

You've been told numerous times Taco Bell doesn't have to be deceptive, only that the customer feels deceived.

Well then every company would lose every case. Someone felt deceived because crunch berries didn't have berries. Now, apparently someone feels deceived because Taco Bell didn't tell them there taco filling was taco filling.

ETA: I think the 36% claim is just padding. They get Taco Bell to admit it's whatever percentage other than 36% (88%), then they smack them around with the fact ground beef has to be 100% beef.

Except Taco Bell never claims it's ground beef. It only has to be 100% beef if you call it "ground beef", which Taco Bell never does. They call is "seasoned ground beef" in a context where it's clear this is explaining what kind of taco filling it is. The specific 100% law only protects things described only as "ground beef".

If you are arguing "seasoned ground beef" must be 100% beef because it includes the words "ground beef", why not argue that "30% ground beef" must be 100% ground beef by the same rules? And once you realize the argument based on the technical definition of "ground beef" can't work, you're back to basic principles of fraud and the "I didn't realize the seasoned ground beef taco filling was taco filling" idiocy.

 

[Furcifer]

The difference is that the suppliers are trying to identify what it is.

No they aren't, they're fulfilling their legal responsibility to accurately identify the product. If they just wanted to identify it, it would just say "Taco bell beef".

Well then every company would lose every case. Someone felt deceived because crunch berries didn't have berries. Now, apparently someone feels deceived because Taco Bell didn't tell them there taco filling was taco filling.

They should stick to accurately identifying the product, then they wouldn't have to worry about being sued. Instead they try to draw false parallels to real fruit or real meat. Eventually it may catch up to them.

Except Taco Bell never claims it's ground beef. It only has to be 100% beef if you call it "ground beef", which Taco Bell never does. They call is "seasoned ground beef" in a context where it's clear this is explaining what kind of taco filling it is. The specific 100% law only protects things described only as "ground beef".

This distinction between "seasoned ground beef" and "ground beef" is tenuous at best. It's pretty clear, although not proven, some of the "seasoning" get incorporated with the meat prior to cooking. Otherwise the texture would be exactly like when you make it a home. As such it is not a "seasoning" as one would expect.

If you are arguing "seasoned ground beef" must be 100% beef because it includes the words "ground beef", why not argue that "30% ground beef" must be 100% ground beef by the same rules?

Because it's reasonable to assume seasonings don't comprise 12% of ground meat. I season my ground beef with closer to 1%. Like I said, if you want to go with the ridiculous notion that oats are a "seasoning" please explain why corn and mashed potatoes and gravy aren't a seasoning, and why Shepherd's Pie isn't just "seasoned ground beef". Salt is an ingredient, corn is and ingredient, ground beef is an ingredient, taco filling is a recipe.

And once you realize the argument based on the technical definition of "ground beef" can't work, you're back to basic principles of fraud and the "I didn't realize the seasoned ground beef taco filling was taco filling" idiocy.

It most certainly works. Taco Bell doesn't have ground beef on the premises, they don't serve ground beef, therefore they can't advertise it.

 

[JoelKatz]

Because it's reasonable to assume seasonings don't comprise 12% of ground meat.

Right, but is it reasonable to assume seasonings, water, and texture modifiers comprise 12% of seasoned ground beef taco filling? And the answer is ... yes, it obviously is. Anyone who made a beef filling will tell you that they're typically 85-95% ground beef.

 

[gnome]

Well then every company would lose every case. Someone felt deceived because crunch berries didn't have berries. Now, apparently someone feels deceived because Taco Bell didn't tell them there taco filling was taco filling.

I think the standard is higher than whether a customer feels deceived. Probably subject to local variations, but in my non-lawyer understanding, it would have to do with whether TB could foresee a reasonable person being misled by their advertising. Not "anyone".