Taco Bell sued

[mortimer]

If it was the first one the label from the packers would say "ground beef, water, seasoning,....".

That's *exactly* what the ingredients label says!

 

[mortimer]

Taco Bell sells their own "Home Original" taco seasoning. So you get some ground beef, add one of those and tell me if you get the same thing as you would at the restaurant.

It's not the same. But it still has more than just "seasonings" in it. Ingredients:

Wheat Flour, Salt, Dried Garlic, Maltodextrin, Chili Peppers, Spice, Dried Onions, Monosodium Glutamate, Paprika, Sugar, Contains Less Than 2% Of Silicon Dioxide As An Anticaking Agent, Soybean Oil, Malic Acid.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Taco-Bell...g-Mix-Components-1.25-oz/10291488#Ingredients

So you're a-ok with wheat flour, maltodextrin, and MSG, but not oats?

Ortega taco seasoning ingredients:

Yellow Corn Flour, Salt, Maltodextrin, Paprika, Spices, Modified Corn Starch, Sugar, Garlic Powder, Citric Acid, Autolyzed Yeast Extract, Natural Flavor, Caramel Color (sulfites).

http://www.ortega.com/products/products_detail.php?id=3755

So you're a-ok with yellow corn flour and maltodextrin, but not oats?

 

[Furcifer]

I think people recognize that the label from the packers has **** all to do with the lawsuit in question...something I'm sure all the parties to the lawsuit recognize (they're suing Taco Bell for how they prepare their food, not a meat packer for how they label their products for sale) but you haven't.

I think the fact that the label was submitted as evidence means you're dead wrong.

 

[mortimer]

I think the fact that the label was submitted as evidence means you're dead wrong.

So everything submitted as evidence in a trial is automatically true and damning?

 

[Furcifer]

That's *exactly* what the ingredients label says!

You may want to see an eye doctor about a scotoma.

 

[Furcifer]

For anyone who knows anything about the food industry, no, there is no case here. No case at all. In fact, the entire idea is laughable beyond belief. But judges don't go to culinary school. So, instead of being hand-waved off as the inanity it is, this will probably end up going somewhere, and being messy, and stupid, and get blown totally out of proportion...

That's some nice hedging

 

[Furcifer]

It's not the same. But it still has more than just "seasonings" in it. Ingredients:

Wheat Flour, Salt, Dried Garlic, Maltodextrin, Chili Peppers, Spice, Dried Onions, Monosodium Glutamate, Paprika, Sugar, Contains Less Than 2% Of Silicon Dioxide As An Anticaking Agent, Soybean Oil, Malic Acid.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Taco-Bell...g-Mix-Components-1.25-oz/10291488#Ingredients

So you're a-ok with wheat flour, maltodextrin, and MSG, but not oats?

Ortega taco seasoning ingredients:

Yellow Corn Flour, Salt, Maltodextrin, Paprika, Spices, Modified Corn Starch, Sugar, Garlic Powder, Citric Acid, Autolyzed Yeast Extract, Natural Flavor, Caramel Color (sulfites).

http://www.ortega.com/products/products_detail.php?id=3755

So you're a-ok with yellow corn flour and maltodextrin, but not oats?

If you read Newton Trino's post and my response you'd already know the answer.

 

[Furcifer]

So everything submitted as evidence in a trial is automatically true and damning?

False dichotomy.

 

[slingblade]

This sounds reasonable, but it's still a little off. I'm not sure what preservatives are needed, it's cooked and frozen then thawed and heated. It doesn't sit for very long. I put cooked ground meat in the fridge and eat it 2 days later with no problem.

That's not what I said. I didn't speak about putting it in the fridge and reheating it later. I said food sitting in a shallow pan on a steam table tends to dry out, and some water has to be added to it now and then.

SkeptiChick, you cook. Food held in a shallow pan in a steam table tends to dry out, right?

They hold the meat in a double boiler (I forget the restaurant name), so it doesn't dry out like leaving it on the stove would.

Steam table. Yes, it does. Not as fast as having the pan on a flame, or on a grill top, but yes, it still dries out.

As for the suit there are actually several claims. The percentage of beef really isn't important, even if it's 36% like they claim, it's going to be hard to prove all of it's 36% and that's close enough to 40% anyways. The real issue is calling this product ground beef. To call it ground beef it has to be closer to 99%, and since it isn't

It is 100% ground beef when it is raw. Once it is cooked, and the fat is drained, it is less than 100% ground beef. This is simple math. If 30% of the raw product is fat, but both fat and meat are counted as being 100% beef, then cooking that beef will result in a net reduction by volume after cooking if you drain away the fat. Which is why dear old MickeyD's has to tell you that a Quarter Pounder is a quarter of a pound before it's cooked. Because it isn't a quarter of a pound, afterwards.

the case really rests on whether or not they should call it "taco filling" or "seasoned ground beef". Even if they were allowed to call it "seasoned ground beef" they have to prove people don't expect to get "seasoned ground beef", the kind you would get at any grocery store in the country.

No. The case rests on the meat content of the finished product. Does the finished product consist of at least 40% meat. The meat in question in this case is ground beef, which starts out as 100% beef, pre-cooked weight.

After it's cooked, how much of it do they actually put in the Taco Filling? 36% of the total product, with a crapton of fillers added to bulk it out, or mostly meat, 88%, as Taco Bell claims?

 

[tesscaline]

That's not what I said. I didn't speak about putting it in the fridge and reheating it later. I said food sitting in a shallow pan on a steam table tends to dry out, and some water has to be added to it now and then.

SkeptiChick, you cook. Food held in a shallow pan in a steam table tends to dry out, right?

Yes, it does. That's actually one of many reasons why industrial cooking operations use more starches in their recipes for ground meat products than one might do at home -- starches help retain the moisture better. Especially grains like oats. That taco bell uses oats in their taco seasoning instead of wheat flour or corn meal makes perfect sense -- oats hold moisture, as well as flavor, very very well in comparison to other grains.

 

[Uncayimmy]

That statement is just plain false.

What statement? You quoted several paragraphs. The fact is that when it comes to judging whether an ad is misleading, a survey of what customers believe an ad means can be entered as evidence. This assumes, of course, that they've already passed the "is truthful" prong of the test. Something can be truthful and misleading. If you don't believe that, then go investigate deceptive advertising further.

Just because someone has a unique recipe, that doesn't mean they're being misleading. Instead, it just might mean that they're innovative, or that they have a patent, or that their just WEIRD... I mean, most recipes for taco seasoning doesn't have cinnamon in it. But I have a friend who uses cinnamon in hers. Does that mean she's being "deceptive" when she calls her seasoning mix "taco seasoning"? Of course it doesn't.

Please pay closer attention next time. The question was about "seasoned ground beef." I said nothing about the type or purpose of the seasoning. You brought taco into the survey, not me. The issue is not whether it's "taco" seasoning or not. The issue is whether a substantial number of people upon seeing a component advertised as "seasoned ground beef" would expect it to include oats, soy, and yeast. But I've said this several times already.

1) Oats on their own do not rise just by adding yeast. You have to get oat FLOUR, add water at the right temperature, and yeast, and let it sit. Just mixing the raw ingredients without going through the right process won't yield any "rising". Thus, no filler action happening. Note, the ingredient listed is oats. Not oat flour. If one is using oat flour, generally one must specify that on an ingredient list. So, even more evidence that no filler action is happening in the manner you postulate.

I hate to dispute your training, but the fact is that the "rising" effect of yeast is the result of the yeast digesting sugar. If you place yeast in a glass of warm water with sugar, it will produce bubbles. There's nothing particularly complicated about it.

The "rising" effect in dough is due to the elastic properties of the mixture itself. The dough traps the air bubbles, which I'm sure you know. I said I was "suspicious" about the addition of yeast, and will be until I know specifically what it does in the recipe.

2) Yeast is used for a heck of a lot more in cooking than just as leavening. It's also used as a flavor agent, not unlike MSG. To make the assumption that taco bell is attempting to add leavening to their taco meat, when the more simple explanation (given 1) is that they are, indeed, using it as said flavor agent.

Can you give me some examples of yeast being used a flavoring agent without relying on fermentation? I know yeast extract is sometimes used as an additive, but Taco Bell has both.

3) Oats are used for many more things than making bread. They are used in a number of ways, as well as being a texturizer. In this case, that's how taco bell is using them.

Probably, yes.

But to be clear, the primary ingredient in the seasoning is "isolated oat product" whereas "oats" is listed further down the list. Isolated oat product is also known as oat fiber. It can absorb 7X its weight in water. It can be used as a meat extender.

Thus, the primary ingredient in "seasoning" is a product sold as meat extender.

4) You may not add any starches, but it is definitely common to do so, no matter what google tells you. Having spent time in industrial kitchens, I can tell you that you probably have NO idea what goes into the food you're served in a restaurant. Adding starches of various sorts to ground beef is par for the course, for any number of reasons. Flours/cornstarch/meals to get seasonings to stick during the cooking process, as a binder, as a thickener, to add texture...

Actually, I have worked in a restaurant, and I've been the primary cook in my home for 25 years. To say I have "NO idea" (in all caps, no less) is rather silly. You don't need to denigrate my expertise to elevate your own.

What goes on in industrial kitchens really isn't relevant since public perception is what matters in a misleading advertising case, which is what this is.

Attempting to insinuate that there's something "deceptive" about a very normal cooking technique, is just plain stupid in my opinion.

Nobody is arguing that the technique is deceptive. The argument is what a reasonable person would expect when seeing the TB ads.

For anyone who knows anything about the food industry, no, there is no case here. No case at all.

Good thing the lawsuit wasn't filed in the food court, eh?

In fact, the entire idea is laughable beyond belief. But judges don't go to culinary school. So, instead of being hand-waved off as the inanity it is, this will probably end up going somewhere, and being messy, and stupid, and get blown totally out of proportion...

You have a hammer, so you're seeing a nail. It really doesn't matter if every restaurant in the world does a certain thing in the kitchen. What matters is the general public's perception of the words used in the marketing materials to describe that activity or product.

 

[PhantomWolf]

A note on the yeast. I believe it was called a yeast extract earlier, which would likely make it something like what we call Marmite or Vegemite. (Brits and Aussies would know what I'm talking about.) These tend to have a very strong "beefy" flavour and certainly could be used as a seasoning.

 

[Uncayimmy]

A note on the yeast. I believe it was called a yeast extract earlier, which would likely make it something like what we call Marmite or Vegemite. (Brits and Aussies would know what I'm talking about.) These tend to have a very strong "beefy" flavour and certainly could be used as a seasoning.

According to the Taco Bell website, they have "Autolyzed Yeast Extract" and "Yeast" as separate ingredients within the Seasoning section. Interestingly, salt is listed twice - once within the seasoning and once after the seasoning, so I suppose the seasoning mixture is dumped in separately.

I'd also like to mention that the Taco Bell Seasoning Mix you can buy in a packet lists the following ingredients: Wheat, Flour, Salt, Dried Garlic, Maltodextrin, Chili Peppers, Spice, Dried Onions, Monosodium Glutamate, Paprika, Sugar, Contains less than 2% of Silicon Dioxide As An Anticaking Agent, Soybean Oil, Malic Acid.

Notice that there are no isolated oat product or oats? It kinda weakens the argument that the restaurant uses those for "seasoning" or "texture" rather than for meat extenders. There's MSG, which is essentially the same as autolyzed yeast extract. There's no yeast, though.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Notice that there are no isolated oat product or oats? It kinda weakens the argument that the restaurant uses those for "seasoning" or "texture" rather than for meat extenders. There's MSG, which is essentially the same as autolyzed yeast extract. There's no yeast, though.

Notice it has Wheat, and Flour, instead of Oats. SkeptiChick noted above that oats hold water better when keeping food heated for long periods of time like you would at TB.

 

[BenBurch]

A consumer cooking for home does not need to deal with a steam table and would be likely to burn oats in the frying pan.

 

[Uncayimmy]

Notice it has Wheat, and Flour, instead of Oats. SkeptiChick noted above that oats hold water better when keeping food heated for long periods of time like you would at TB.

The "seasoning" in the restaurant contains primarily isolated oat product, which is marketed as a meat extender. The oats, something different, come after Salt, Chili Pepper, Onion Powder, and Tomato Powder. If, in fact, isolated oat product "holds water better" that is because it holds so much water (7X its weight).

Furthermore, where is the evidence that Taco Bell keeps their taco filling uncovered and out for an extended period of time? The taco filling comes to the restaurant already prepared. It only needs to be heated as needed. I can't imagine them preparing much more than their short-term needs. It's fast food, so presumably the product moves rather quickly. Covering it will greatly reduce moisture loss.

So, on one hand we have a known meat extender listed as the primary ingredient of the "seasoning," and on the other hand someone is speculating that it's there to hold moisture.

 

[BenBurch]

Isolated Oat Product is also called Oat Fiber.

Oat Fiber is a fine fiber product made from oat hulls. It is high in total dietary fiber, mild in flavor, and light tan to off white in color. This fiber is especially useful as an ingredient to increase fiber content in products such as cereals, bakery products, muffins, seasonings, meats, crackers, snack foods and pet food. Its use results in superior products with increased Fiber and reduced Calorie content.

An all-natural, oat-derived flavor modifier extends the shelf life of meat and poultry products while promoting moisture and flavor retention. “It is a cost-effective, value-added antioxidant flavor potentiator," says Ron Ratz, director of protein development, Wixon, Inc., St. Francis, WI. “An alternative to other meat extenders, such as soy or starch, this flavor modifier intensifies inherit savory notes without adding any visual distractions or off flavors that could negatively impact product taste.

“It also adds the benefits of fiber, while reducing the warmed-over flavor often found in pre-cooked meats," adds Ratz. “It has been shown to increase moisture retention up to 15 times of the inclusion rate of up to 1.5%, allowing for greater yields in a variety of meat applications." Applications include fresh, frozen, precooked and further-processed meats.

“The product is highly effective in conjunction with ground, emulsified and internal addition uses, regardless of species, with minimal impact to pH," says Ratz. This dry ingredient is labeled as: isolated oat product, natural flavor, carrier (customer-specific).

 

[Uncayimmy]

From the FDA:

http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/fcn/fcnDetailNavigation.cfm?rpt=grasListing&id=261
Oat Hull Fiber
Intended Use
Use (1) as an ingredient in bread/pizza crust, cookies/crackers/bars, cereal (hot and cold), baby food cereal, and snacks (fried and baked) at levels ranging from 5 percent to 14 percent by weight; (2) as an ingredient in breaders and batters applied in coating onto meat and poultry at levels ranging from 2 percent by weight of the total food system (breaded or coated meats) to 5 percent by weight of the dry coating system (breader and batter); and (3) as an extender in meat products at levels ranging from 3 percent to 5 percent

 

[tesscaline]

UY -- Are you seriously attempting to argue that adding less than 5% of oats and yeast would act as some sort of significant extension of meat? Really? We're talking about less than an ounce per pound here.

There is nothing deceptive about what Taco Bell is doing...
Lets just compare some major fast food chains:
Taco Bell:

SEASONED GROUND BEEF
Beef, Water, Seasoning [Isolated Oat Product, Salt, Chili Pepper, Onion Powder, Tomato Powder, Oats (Wheat), Soy Lecithin, Sugar, Spices, Maltodextrin, Soybean Oil (Anti-dusting Agent), Garlic Powder, Autolyzed Yeast Extract, Citric Acid, Caramel Color, Cocoa Powder (Processed With Alkali), Silicon Dioxide, Natural Flavors, Yeast, Modified Corn Starch, Natural Smoke Flavor], Salt, Sodium Phosphates. CONTAINS SOYBEAN, WHEAT

Jack in the Box (pdf found here):

Beef Regular Taco Filling Ingredients: Beef, Water, Textured Vegetable Protein (Soy Flour, Caramel Color), Defatted Soy Grits, Seasoning [Chili Pepper, Corn Maltodextrin, Spices, Bleached Enriched Wheat Flour (Contains Niacin, Reduced Iron, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin, and Folic Acid), Salt, Garlic Powder, Hydrolyzed (Corn, Soy, Wheat) Proteins, Monosodium Glutamate, Onion
Powder, Natural Flavors, Disodium Inosinate, Disodium Guanylate, Succinic Acid], Salt, Tomato Paste, Worcestershire Sauce (Distilled Vinegar, Molasses, Corn Syrup, Water, Salt, Caramel Color, Garlic Powder, Sugar, Spices, Tamarind, Natural Flavor, Sulfiting Agent).

Del Taco doesn't publish an ingredient list, so who the heck knows what goes on in there... Same goes for Taco Time. Same goes for just about every other fast food chain that makes a ground beef taco. No ingredient lists. But! We can pull up ingredient lists on packaged taco seasoning packages, as some people have already started doing...

McCormick gives us:

Ingredients
Spices , (Chili Pepper , Cumin , Oregano , Red Pepper) , Onion , Whey Solids , Salt , Sugar , Paprika , Garlic , Potato Starch , Citric Acid

Yum. Potato starch. Whey solids too. Mmm tasty.

Ortega gives us:

Ingredients
Yellow Corn Flour, Salt, Maltodextrin, Paprika Spices, Modified Cornstarch, Sugar, Garlic Powder, Citric Acid, Autolyzed Yeast Extract, Natural Flavor, Caramel Color.

Oh, look, what are those? Corn flour (also used as an extender sometimes), Cornstarch, and oh huh. Yeast. Autolyzed yeast extract even.

Simply Organic has:

Item Description: Ingredients: Organic Red Chilis, Organic Maltodextrin, Organic Paprika, Sea Salt, Organic Garlic, Organic Onion, Organic Potato Starch, Organic Coriander, Organic Cumin, Silicon Dioxide, Citric Acid, Organic Cayenne

Hm. More potato starch (organic this time). (funny, silicon dioxide is organic? alrighty...)

Old El Paso has:

Ingredients: Salt, Maltodextrin, Chili Pepper, Onion Powder, Monosodium Glutamate, Corn Starch, Yellow Corn Flour, Spice. Contains Less than 2% of the Following: Partially Hydrogenated Soybean Oil, Silicon Dioxide (Anticaking Agent), Natural Flavor, Ethoxyquin (Preservative).

MSG instead of the AYE, and, shockingly, both corn starch and corn flour.

Now... Lets go on to talk about percentages. These flavoring packets are for approximately one ounce. One ounce to be added to a single pound of ground beef. That would mean they make up 1/17th of the ingredients (6%).

With Taco Bell's recipe... Well, here, they explain exactly what all that is for us... Here:

In case you're curious, here's our not-so-secret recipe.
We start with USDA-inspected quality beef (88%). Then add water to keep it juicy and moist (3%). Mix in Mexican spices and flavors, including salt, chili pepper, onion powder, tomato powder, sugar, garlic powder, and cocoa powder (4%). Combine a little oats, caramelized sugar, yeast, citric acid, and other ingredients that contribute to the flavor, moisture, consistency, and quality of our seasoned beef (5%)

Is there some sort of drastic difference between the numbers? Not really... 9% seasonings/texturizers. That's a mere 3% difference. Add half an ounce too much water when you're cooking your own at home, and you've got the exact same amount of "additives".

So. I say again: To anyone who knows anything about the actual subject at hand, in any degree of depth, this case is a joke. There is NOTHING deceptive going on, except about maybe how much healthier taco bell is than we all originally thought. We add this crap to our own taco filling at home. Other fast food chains add similar (if not worse) and we don't complain about them.

Attempting to argue that Taco Bell is being "deceptive" in some way because of the fact that they use oats and yeast in their seasoning/texturizer, is complete BS. It's not even the subject of the lawsuit, for crying out loud! The subject of the lawsuit is that there is a problem with the RATIO of seasoning/texturizer to meat. And those claiming it have offered NO evidence. Taco Bell, however, has come forward with full ingredient lists, and even public statements outlining exactly what they do, and why. And what they make there, in their factories, isn't very different at all from what the "average person" makes at home.

 

[JoelKatz]

It is 100% ground beef when it is raw. Once it is cooked, and the fat is drained, it is less than 100% ground beef.

You have it backwards, it is more than 100% ground beef. (Unless you cap the percentage at 100.)

This is simple math. If 30% of the raw product is fat, but both fat and meat are counted as being 100% beef, then cooking that beef will result in a net reduction by volume after cooking if you drain away the fat.

Exactly, say you started with 3oz of ground beef and the fat drained away leaving 2oz. The concentration of ground beef is:

100 * (Number of ounces ground beef)/(ounces of product) =
100 * 3 / 2 = 150%

In fact, you can take 4 oz of 100% orange juice and 4 oz of 100% apple juice, combine them, boil the result down to 4 oz, and you can call the result either 100% apple juice or 100% orange juice.

When you remove a dilutant, the concentration goes up, not down.

Which is why dear old MickeyD's has to tell you that a Quarter Pounder is a quarter of a pound before it's cooked. Because it isn't a quarter of a pound, afterwards.

Right, but it's now *more* concentrated. All the flavor of 1/4 pound of ground beef is now in less than 1/4 of a pound. However, they can't call it '1/4 pound' if it doesn't weight 1/4 pound.

Here's a simple example. I take 4 oz of 50% orange juice. I remove half the water. I can now call it "100% orange juice", but I can't call it "4 oz".

If 4 oz of 50% orange juice is reduced to 2 oz, the concentration must exceed 50%.

No. The case rests on the meat content of the finished product. Does the finished product consist of at least 40% meat. The meat in question in this case is ground beef, which starts out as 100% beef, pre-cooked weight.

After it's cooked, how much of it do they actually put in the Taco Filling? 36% of the total product, with a crapton of fillers added to bulk it out, or mostly meat, 88%, as Taco Bell claims?

That's a disputed issue of fact. Taco Bell claims "Our seasoned beef recipe contains 88% quality USDA-inspected beef and 12% seasonings, spices, water and other ingredients that provide taste, texture and moisture.".