Synchronicity surrounding schizoprenia/mystical/psychedelic/religious experiences.

[blue triangle]

I think it's more like, theists/mystics see meaning that's all about them personally, while others see an outer world that is going about its business.

If I encountered the crow incident, rather than think the crow (or some entity using the crow) was communicating with me, I'd think I had a rare chance to witness some unusual behavior of wildlife outside of my emotional sphere. Rather than thinking my concerns are the center of the universe, I want to learn about the universe and what goes on in it without trying to add egotistical bias.

The entire focus of spiritual growth is in the opposite direction. Far from being egotistical, mystics are attempting to release the ego's grip on their consciousness, because they know it is what stands between them and transcendence. One of the most profound and beautiful features of spiritual experience is the sense of humility it engenders. Yes, you realise you are important, but unlike the ego's idea of importance, which is exclusive, this is something very inclusive. Everything has it place in the grand scheme, including you. You are no longer the centre of the universe, but see yourself in relationship to the real centre, which many of us call God.

 

[Maurice Ledifficile]

 

[blue triangle]

One thing that strikes me is just how trivial the synchronicities really are; it just seems to me that an all-encompassing and objective reality-behind-the-reality could do better by way of revelation than a few measly dreams and subjective perceptions given only to folks who want to see it.

It has done better, but this is not the thread to discuss it. I totally disagree with your assessment though. If the universe really does reflect our beliefs back to us, then those who do not experience synchronicity aren't ready for it anyway. Those who do experience and benefit from them are not complaining here. They understand the value of synchronicity in their lives. In both cases people are getting what they want.

And if the universe is continually responding to our thoughts and beliefs then it is doing much better than simply throwing a few little synchronicites our way. It has a full time job on its hands, especially since most of us hardly know what we want most of the time.

Some people look at everything and see what they're looking for, look through a telescope at the universe and intone "the heavens proclaim the glory of god"; some people use a smaller telescope and see them in the actions of a bird that crosses their path. There doesn't seem to be any useful (and testable) in-between because they're really the same thing- an attachment of significance by people searching for it, not the same thing as a "there" there.

Who was searching for it? I wasn't. I was very uncomfortable with it in fact. That indeed is one of the reasons why the Holy Spirit wakes us up slowly and gently. We get comfortable in our ruts and resist change, even unto death in some cases, because we fear it greatly and because our ego resists giving up control to a higher power.

Your use of Psalm 19 is singularly inappropriate here, firstly because you use words from a book many believe was divinely inspired to argue against divine inspiration. Secondly, because those arguing against synchonicity are usually naturalists and skeptics who see nothing beyond the material universe. I would urge you to look further, think bigger and fly higher..

 

[turingtest]

It has done better, but this is not the thread to discuss it. I totally disagree with your assessment though. If the universe really does reflect our beliefs back to us, then those who do not experience synchronicity aren't ready for it anyway. Those who do experience and benefit from them are not complaining here. They understand the value of synchronicity in their lives. In both cases people are getting what they want.

And if the universe is continually responding to our thoughts and beliefs then it is doing much better than simply throwing a few little synchronicites our way. It has a full time job on its hands, especially since most of us hardly know what we want most of the time.


Who was searching for it? I wasn't. I was very uncomfortable with it in fact. That indeed is one of the reasons why the Holy Spirit wakes us up slowly and gently. We get comfortable in our ruts and resist change, even unto death in some cases, because we fear it greatly and because our ego resists giving up control to a higher power.

Your use of Psalm 19 is singularly inappropriate here, firstly because you use words from a book many believe was divinely inspired to argue against divine inspiration. Secondly, because those arguing against synchonicity are usually naturalists and skeptics who see nothing beyond the material universe. I would urge you to look further, think bigger and fly higher..

What makes you so sure I haven't? That is the thing I object to in proselytes, this serene assumption that because someone else hasn't come to the same conclusion they have, it's just because, gosh, they haven't looked hard enough or in the right directions. There are many flavors of certainty; been there, done that with the Christian brand...And I"m not sure why you're even urging me to do it anyway- according to your own account, your revelation came to you without your searching (which, without accusing you of dishonesty with anyone but yourself, I question). If there's something objectively there, surely it'll find me without relying on me for reflection?

 

[Pup]

The entire focus of spiritual growth is in the opposite direction. Far from being egotistical, mystics are attempting to release the ego's grip on their consciousness, because they know it is what stands between them and transcendence. One of the most profound and beautiful features of spiritual experience is the sense of humility it engenders. Yes, you realise you are important, but unlike the ego's idea of importance, which is exclusive, this is something very inclusive. Everything has it place in the grand scheme, including you. You are no longer the centre of the universe, but see yourself in relationship to the real centre, which many of us call God.

The sensation may feel like humility, but it's not. If I see a wild animal doing something unusual, I don't think it's communicating to me (not counting obvious fear/threat displays). I'm just an observer. If someone nearby claims the behavior is a message from the universe to them, their ego is huge.

 

[Resume]

I would urge you to look further, think bigger and fly higher..

What's all this about transcendence and ego?

 

[steenkh]

The scientists created a set up that was effectively the same, and showed that the potential energy of a polystyrene ball could be increased, merely by utilising information about the experiment. So information was converted into energy.https://www.technologyreview.com/s/420996/physicists-convert-information-into-energy/

While it is a fun experiment, it seems to have the same theoretical weakness as Maxwell's original demon: it uses energy itself to determine the energy level of the particles (or the ball) and to implement the separation.

Finally, I fail to see your original point about information being energy, and vice versa, and in particular why this should mean that synchronicity is anything more than random occurrences that we happen to notice.

 

[marplots]

The scientists created a set up that was effectively the same, and showed that the potential energy of a polystyrene ball could be increased, merely by utilising information about the experiment. So information was converted into energy.https://www.technologyreview.com/s/420996/physicists-convert-information-into-energy/

These two paragraphs from the link seem at odds to me:
There’s no violation of thermodynamics here. These guys use a video camera to determine the position of the bead so when the camera’s energy budget is taken into account, everything works out as the laws of thermodynamics predict.

It’s hard to overstate the significance of what they’ve done: they’ve been able to operate a nanomachine–a stair-climbing bead– using nothing more than information as the power supply.

 

[John Nowak]

It's real! Thank you! I loves me some parasites! Um, from a distance. It's why I live where there is a hard freeze every winter.

You're more than welcome. They do four podcasts in all: This Week in Virology / Parasitism / Evolution / Microbiology. IMHO they're probably the best science related podcasts made; if someone did one as good on space science, well, I'd marry it.

 

[blue triangle]

What makes you so sure I haven't? That is the thing I object to in proselytes, this serene assumption that because someone else hasn't come to the same conclusion they have, it's just because, gosh, they haven't looked hard enough or in the right directions. There are many flavors of certainty; been there, done that with the Christian brand...And I"m not sure why you're even urging me to do it anyway- according to your own account, your revelation came to you without your searching (which, without accusing you of dishonesty with anyone but yourself, I question). If there's something objectively there, surely it'll find me without relying on me for reflection?

I'm not urging you to look for anything. I said it in answer to your own suggestion that you live in a larger universe than I. I think it's clear that each of us thinks the other's universe is smaller.

And no, I wasn't looking for God, not consciously anyway, although I knew I was on a journey. It's well known in spiritual circles that there are stages on this journey and a period of doubt or even atheism is normal. But I would suggest that there is something beyond atheism.

 

[blue triangle]

The sensation may feel like humility, but it's not. If I see a wild animal doing something unusual, I don't think it's communicating to me (not counting obvious fear/threat displays). I'm just an observer. If someone nearby claims the behavior is a message from the universe to them, their ego is huge.

I didn't think the crow was communicating to me either. I think God was communicating to me through the synchronised event. It was a reasonable conclusion given the events I've related. And it was one of many I was receiving at that time. What is unreasonable is to ignore these events and hope it all goes away. That's called sticking your head in the sand. It's cowardly.

 

[marplots]

I didn't think the crow was communicating to me either. I think God was communicating to me through the synchronised event. It was a reasonable conclusion given the events I've related. And it was one of many I was receiving at that time. What is unreasonable is to ignore these events and hope it all goes away. That's called sticking your head in the sand. It's cowardly.

The hard part for me would be figuring out just what God was communicating with these events. Was it a general, "Hi there, I exist" or something more specific?

Omens always seem to be clear only in retrospect, after I already know the right answer. Not so much when I still have the questions before me.

 

[Pixel42]

It was a reasonable conclusion given the events I've related.

This is obviously some strange usage of the word reasonable which I wasn't previously aware of.

 

[blue triangle]

While it is a fun experiment, it seems to have the same theoretical weakness as Maxwell's original demon: it uses energy itself to determine the energy level of the particles (or the ball) and to implement the separation.

The point of the experiment was to show that information can be directly converted into energy and it seems they did that. Information is ordered and can be thought of as negative entropy. They thought it could therefore do work and this is what seems to be happening.

Finally, I fail to see your original point about information being energy, and vice versa, and in particular why this should mean that synchronicity is anything more than random occurrences that we happen to notice.

I'm saying that synchronicity, as the definition implies, is meaningful, and this is information, deliberately 'encoded' into an event. If there is an organising force in the universe, then there has to be a means by which synchronicities, which are events here in the physical reality, are created. If information can be directly converted into energy, then energy can be directly converted into information. So at least in theory it may be possible. And since they are connected to what is happening inside us, we have to be part of that process too.

 

[blue triangle]

The hard part for me would be figuring out just what God was communicating with these events. Was it a general, "Hi there, I exist" or something more specific?

Omens always seem to be clear only in retrospect, after I already know the right answer. Not so much when I still have the questions before me.

These events are always information rich, elegantly conceived masterpieces. I like to call them signs rather than omens and signs are just that: pointers. They assist us on our journey.

 

[blue triangle]

This is obviously some strange usage of the word reasonable which I wasn't previously aware of.

It's the conclusions of skeptics that seem strange to us theists. But which side is correct?

 

[Resume]

But which side is correct?

The side with the evidence.

 

[steenkh]

The point of the experiment was to show that information can be directly converted into energy and it seems they did that.

No they did not. As I said, they used energy in the camera and the switch to achieve this.

I'm saying that synchronicity, as the definition implies, is meaningful, and this is information, deliberately 'encoded' into an event.

But you have yet to show that the meaning of the event is encoded into the event, and not just something that you interpret into the event.

If there is an organising force in the universe, then there has to be a means by which synchronicities, which are events here in the physical reality, are created.

If there an organising force in the universe, then you are into magic anyway, so you do not need to look for laws of physics to enable synchronicities.

If information can be directly converted into energy, then energy can be directly converted into information.

Well, the Japanese experiment is not converting information directly into energy, and the opposite is too trivial to be interesting: in the Japanese experiment, you could simply switch off the electricity, and the potential energy of the ball (representing information) becomes kinetic energy.

 

[Pup]

I didn't think the crow was communicating to me either. I think God was communicating to me through the synchronised event. It was a reasonable conclusion given the events I've related. And it was one of many I was receiving at that time. What is unreasonable is to ignore these events and hope it all goes away. That's called sticking your head in the sand. It's cowardly.

Where do you get the idea I want rare events to go away? I think it's cool to be lucky enough to see or find rare things in nature. I just dont think they're purposely orchestrated for my benefit by some supernatural entity, nor are they designed to be human communication. Wild animal behavior is about animals, not about us (barring obvious exceptions like training with food).

Would you feel upset, alone or abandoned to live in a world where a god doesn't send you messages? Doesn't bother me, and yet you say people like me are cowardly.

 

[marplots]

Wild animal behavior is about animals, not about us...

I snipped that out because it got me wondering if the whole incident might not have been for the crow's benefit.