Synchronicity surrounding schizoprenia/mystical/psychedelic/religious experiences.

[Mike!]

The Police - Synchronicity 1

Can't have One without the other...



The Police - Synchronicity II

 

[blue triangle]

I have considered myself a skeptic for a while, (not a very good one though.) Recently I found out about the phenomenon of "synchronicity," and so far I haven't found a rational explanation for it's occurrence. "Littlewood's law" and "the law of truly large numbers" do explain it pretty well for the most part.

Here's my problem: why do these events almost always surround a state of either a mystical/spiritual/religious experience, schizophrenic episode, psychedelic episode. There's got to be something to them occurring more frequently during, or surrounding a time when your brain was not working normally right? But these events do seem to happen objectively, and aren't merely a faulty memory or hallucination, since many anecdotes state others noticing the phenomenon too.

I realize that anecdotal evidence is the worst form of evidence, and that no one should believe anything based on anecdotes. But there are so many of those stories that I doubt they're all making stuff up.

Hi there, pitcher10. Having experienced synchronicity on numerous occasions I can confirm both its reality as an event and your observation that it occurs during spiritual awakenings, or what psychologist Stanislav Grof termed 'psycho-spiritual crises'.

One of the features of synchronicities is the correspondence between these events and the subjective state of the experiencer. When this happens repeatedly the experiencer gains confidence that they indeed are real events, but also that they are somehow linked to the experiencer's internal state. A new understanding of the universe is thereby gained and it becomes again a place full of meaning and wonder - they become as little children once more.

 

[turingtest]

Hi there, pitcher10. Having experienced synchronicity on numerous occasions I can confirm both its reality as an event and your observation that it occurs during spiritual awakenings, or what psychologist Stanislav Grof termed 'psycho-spiritual crises'.

One of the features of synchronicities is the correspondence between these events and the subjective state of the experiencer. When this happens repeatedly the experiencer gains confidence that they indeed are real events, but also that they are somehow linked to the experiencer's internal state. A new understanding of the universe is thereby gained and it becomes again a place full of meaning and wonder - they become as little children once more.

This feature, the "correspondence" with a subjective state, is pretty much the definition of confirmation bias. And, yes, gaining confidence through making an endless loop of that bias will, indeed, make a person as a little child again- the "new understanding of the universe" will be the child's sense that it all revolves around him.

 

[blue triangle]

This feature, the "correspondence" with a subjective state, is pretty much the definition of confirmation bias. And, yes, gaining confidence through making an endless loop of that bias will, indeed, make a person as a little child again- the "new understanding of the universe" will be the child's sense that it all revolves around him.

Confirmation bias is indeed a danger, but some synchronicities are so striking that wishful thinking, faulty deductions and selective memory, etc, can easily be ruled out. What some people fail to realise is that synchronicities are subjectively experienced as happening to people, who aren't looking (consiously) for anything, although they are at some level ready for change. They are the universe knocking on our door, sometimes hammering on it, with a message of change ahead. Synchronities are often associated with a spiritual awakening, and can herald major milestones in the process of inner change. The initial reaction is often fear, as people are often comfortable in their ruts and fearful of change in their lives.

Far from believing that the universe now revolves around them, people who undergo a spiritual awakening often become less self-concerned and see themselves, not as being at the centre of the universe but in relationship to a higher power which gradually becomes the centre of their lives. They do not become children again, but as children, awakened once more to wonder and meaning, no longer trapped in the shell of their ego, but freed to live again.

 

[Pixel42]

I don't know anyone who fits your description, blue triangle. Perhaps you could give a specific example of someone who had such an experience, the coincidence(s) that prompted it, and how they were changed by it.

 

[marplots]

One of the features of synchronicities is the correspondence between these events and the subjective state of the experiencer. When this happens repeatedly the experiencer gains confidence that they indeed are real events, but also that they are somehow linked to the experiencer's internal state. A new understanding of the universe is thereby gained and it becomes again a place full of meaning and wonder - they become as little children once more.

I don't think this is a particularly rare phenomenon - forward biasing an emotional response which recursively engenders a feeling of "knowing." I find music triggers much the same in me. There are songs which "speak" to me and are significant and meaningful through much the same process.

Are they really as profound as I think? Subjectively they are - that's how the experience is defined. But, like many a spiritual awakening, and very much unlike "real" knowledge I gain, they do not have the property of endurance and are very much trapped in the moment. It is the fading away bit that distinguishes the subjectively meaningful, the situationally derived meaningful, from the more permanent, objectively profound. I suppose this is because the subject (me) changes over time, whereas solid knowings about the universe around me remain the same. I am no longer moved by the songs of my youth. But I still rely on Newton.

 

[blue triangle]

I don't know anyone who fits your description, blue triangle. Perhaps you could give a specific example of someone who had such an experience, the coincidence(s) that prompted it, and how they were changed by it.

One person who fits that description is me. Everything I wrote was from personal experience and, having been an atheist for most of my life I was stunned by what was happening to me. I have read many accounts of people who've gone through similar experiences, enough to say that although each journey is unique there are also identifiable similarities and stages. One stage was a kind of rite of passage around 1998/9, during which I seemed to have been given (or perhaps gave myself) an ongoing and serious situation at work. This reached a climax in the spring of 1999 and was eventually resolved in my favour. However, I came very close to losing my position and had to fight to save it. The issue was attended by a wave of spiritual and paranormal experiences, one of which I'd like to relate, because it also illustrates how external reality can mirror internal states and how some dreams may be drawn from a deeper level of consciousness, which Jung called the Collective Unconscious.

During this crisis I had repeatedly been having versions a particular dream, of the following was one example. I am standing on the shore of a bay facing a dark and shark-laden sea. There is a narrow strait ahead and beyond it is the open sea. At the far shore is a city made of crystal, beautiful and mysterious, but I have to swim across the shark infested waters and through the strait to reach it. In other versions I did cross the water.

The day after I had that particular dream the crisis at work reached its climax and I was so distraught that the day afterwards I took a sick day. I went for a walk, choosing a path beside a local canal. As I ambled along, deep in thought about the crisis and wondering if I was going to lose my position, a rook or crow cawed loudly at me and I looked up at it. Then it swooped right at me, crossed in front of me, almost brushing me with its wings, then swooped back and dropped into the canal infront of me. Then, using its wings, it slowly and awkwardly swam across the canal in a straight line, directly in front of me. At the other side, it turned around, looked directly at me then flew off. I was staring at all of this with open-mouthed astonishment. For one thing it is easily the closest I've ever been to a crow and I'd never seen one behave like that (I looked up books on crow behaviour afterwards to see if anything could explain it). But what really shook me was my recognition of what the crow was doing. It was enacting my water-crossing dreams! And so the event had great meaning for me, which is why I believe it was a synchronicity, an outer event synchronous with my inner state. It also seemed to be encouraging me to fight at work, as the crow had to fight to swim cross the twenty-foot distance. Inspired by the event I wrote a report on the situation at work that saved the day for me.

There are three interesting postscripts to this, for me, remarkable event. Firstly, after the situation was resolved in my favour I had a dream that summarised the entire situation and ended with me in a swimming pool with the by now man-sized crow, relaxing. In other words, the crisis was over. Secondly I later discovered that crows are regarded as spiritual messengers in some cultures. Finally, about a year or so later I read Jung's Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious. In it there was the following dream, had by a 19th Century theologian. I am standing at the top of a hill and there is a path leading down to a deep, fast flowing river. The path continues up the opposite hillside and leads to a castle. I know I have to walk through the water if I want to reach the castle. This is the same kind of dream I had been having a year or so before (they stopped soon after) and contained essentially the same message as my own. Jung saw the castle as the Self, or God-image within and the water was the unconscious mind, the contents of which have to be faced if we are to take the path of psychological health, (which, I would say, is closely related to spiritual growth). So you can perhaps see how a combination of synchronicity, dreams from a shared level of the deeper mind and spiritual symbolism combined to provide me with a most powerful encouragement to spiritual growth, a task in which I was ably assisted by the universe itself. That's my answer.

 

[blue triangle]

I don't think this is a particularly rare phenomenon - forward biasing an emotional response which recursively engenders a feeling of "knowing." I find music triggers much the same in me. There are songs which "speak" to me and are significant and meaningful through much the same process.

I don't think synchronicity is so rare either, but I am sure that chance occurrences do not explain it. Any emotional response to the event comes afterwards and is a consequence of its remarkable attributes. Often the feelings they engender could not be described as emotions, although they are very pleasant states.

Are they really as profound as I think? Subjectively they are - that's how the experience is defined. But, like many a spiritual awakening, and very much unlike "real" knowledge I gain, they do not have the property of endurance and are very much trapped in the moment. It is the fading away bit that distinguishes the subjectively meaningful, the situationally derived meaningful, from the more permanent, objectively profound. I suppose this is because the subject (me) changes over time, whereas solid knowings about the universe around me remain the same. I am no longer moved by the songs of my youth. But I still rely on Newton.

The wonder of a captivating song can be matched by the beauty of a mathematical theorem or the thrill of a scientific discovery. In fact, all of those have a fade-away effect (read Robert Pirsig's Lila for a very convincing explanation of why) and they may be closer to each other than you imagine. Physicist Jack Sarfatti called physics the conceptual art of the twentieth Century.

 

[Maurice Ledifficile]

One person who fits that description is me. Everything I wrote was from personal experience and, having been an atheist for most of my life I was stunned by what was happening to me. I have read many accounts of people who've gone through similar experiences, enough to say that although each journey is unique there are also identifiable similarities and stages. One stage was a kind of rite of passage around 1998/9, during which I seemed to have been given (or perhaps gave myself) an ongoing and serious situation at work. This reached a climax in the spring of 1999 and was eventually resolved in my favour. However, I came very close to losing my position and had to fight to save it. The issue was attended by a wave of spiritual and paranormal experiences, one of which I'd like to relate, because it also illustrates how external reality can mirror internal states and how some dreams may be drawn from a deeper level of consciousness, which Jung called the Collective Unconscious.

During this crisis I had repeatedly been having versions a particular dream, of the following was one example. I am standing on the shore of a bay facing a dark and shark-laden sea. There is a narrow strait ahead and beyond it is the open sea. At the far shore is a city made of crystal, beautiful and mysterious, but I have to swim across the shark infested waters and through the strait to reach it. In other versions I did cross the water.

The day after I had that particular dream the crisis at work reached its climax and I was so distraught that the day afterwards I took a sick day. I went for a walk, choosing a path beside a local canal. As I ambled along, deep in thought about the crisis and wondering if I was going to lose my position, a rook or crow cawed loudly at me and I looked up at it. Then it swooped right at me, crossed in front of me, almost brushing me with its wings, then swooped back and dropped into the canal infront of me. Then, using its wings, it slowly and awkwardly swam across the canal in a straight line, directly in front of me. At the other side, it turned around, looked directly at me then flew off. I was staring at all of this with open-mouthed astonishment. For one thing it is easily the closest I've ever been to a crow and I'd never seen one behave like that (I looked up books on crow behaviour afterwards to see if anything could explain it). But what really shook me was my recognition of what the crow was doing. It was enacting my water-crossing dreams! And so the event had great meaning for me, which is why I believe it was a synchronicity, an outer event synchronous with my inner state. It also seemed to be encouraging me to fight at work, as the crow had to fight to swim cross the twenty-foot distance. Inspired by the event I wrote a report on the situation at work that saved the day for me.

There are three interesting postscripts to this, for me, remarkable event. Firstly, after the situation was resolved in my favour I had a dream that summarised the entire situation and ended with me in a swimming pool with the by now man-sized crow, relaxing. In other words, the crisis was over. Secondly I later discovered that crows are regarded as spiritual messengers in some cultures. Finally, about a year or so later I read Jung's Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious. In it there was the following dream, had by a 19th Century theologian. I am standing at the top of a hill and there is a path leading down to a deep, fast flowing river. The path continues up the opposite hillside and leads to a castle. I know I have to walk through the water if I want to reach the castle. This is the same kind of dream I had been having a year or so before (they stopped soon after) and contained essentially the same message as my own. Jung saw the castle as the Self, or God-image within and the water was the unconscious mind, the contents of which have to be faced if we are to take the path of psychological health, (which, I would say, is closely related to spiritual growth). So you can perhaps see how a combination of synchronicity, dreams from a shared level of the deeper mind and spiritual symbolism combined to provide me with a most powerful encouragement to spiritual growth, a task in which I was ably assisted by the universe itself. That's my answer.

So no evidence then? Anecdotes are not convincing at all.

 

[turingtest]

One person who fits that description is me. Everything I wrote was from personal experience and, having been an atheist for most of my life I was stunned by what was happening to me. I have read many accounts of people who've gone through similar experiences, enough to say that although each journey is unique there are also identifiable similarities and stages. One stage was a kind of rite of passage around 1998/9, during which I seemed to have been given (or perhaps gave myself) an ongoing and serious situation at work. This reached a climax in the spring of 1999 and was eventually resolved in my favour. However, I came very close to losing my position and had to fight to save it. The issue was attended by a wave of spiritual and paranormal experiences, one of which I'd like to relate, because it also illustrates how external reality can mirror internal states and how some dreams may be drawn from a deeper level of consciousness, which Jung called the Collective Unconscious.

During this crisis I had repeatedly been having versions a particular dream, of the following was one example. I am standing on the shore of a bay facing a dark and shark-laden sea. There is a narrow strait ahead and beyond it is the open sea. At the far shore is a city made of crystal, beautiful and mysterious, but I have to swim across the shark infested waters and through the strait to reach it. In other versions I did cross the water.

The day after I had that particular dream the crisis at work reached its climax and I was so distraught that the day afterwards I took a sick day. I went for a walk, choosing a path beside a local canal. As I ambled along, deep in thought about the crisis and wondering if I was going to lose my position, a rook or crow cawed loudly at me and I looked up at it. Then it swooped right at me, crossed in front of me, almost brushing me with its wings, then swooped back and dropped into the canal infront of me. Then, using its wings, it slowly and awkwardly swam across the canal in a straight line, directly in front of me. At the other side, it turned around, looked directly at me then flew off. I was staring at all of this with open-mouthed astonishment. For one thing it is easily the closest I've ever been to a crow and I'd never seen one behave like that (I looked up books on crow behaviour afterwards to see if anything could explain it). But what really shook me was my recognition of what the crow was doing. It was enacting my water-crossing dreams! And so the event had great meaning for me, which is why I believe it was a synchronicity, an outer event synchronous with my inner state. It also seemed to be encouraging me to fight at work, as the crow had to fight to swim cross the twenty-foot distance. Inspired by the event I wrote a report on the situation at work that saved the day for me.

There are three interesting postscripts to this, for me, remarkable event. Firstly, after the situation was resolved in my favour I had a dream that summarised the entire situation and ended with me in a swimming pool with the by now man-sized crow, relaxing. In other words, the crisis was over. Secondly I later discovered that crows are regarded as spiritual messengers in some cultures. Finally, about a year or so later I read Jung's Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious. In it there was the following dream, had by a 19th Century theologian. I am standing at the top of a hill and there is a path leading down to a deep, fast flowing river. The path continues up the opposite hillside and leads to a castle. I know I have to walk through the water if I want to reach the castle. This is the same kind of dream I had been having a year or so before (they stopped soon after) and contained essentially the same message as my own. Jung saw the castle as the Self, or God-image within and the water was the unconscious mind, the contents of which have to be faced if we are to take the path of psychological health, (which, I would say, is closely related to spiritual growth). So you can perhaps see how a combination of synchronicity, dreams from a shared level of the deeper mind and spiritual symbolism combined to provide me with a most powerful encouragement to spiritual growth, a task in which I was ably assisted by the universe itself. That's my answer.

I think synchronicity involves a little more than just propinquity in time- there needs to be a factor of unlikely happenstance too. And I don't see having a rather vague (and, by your cite of the theologian's experience, not uncommon) dream that was probably prompted by what you say was a stressful situation at work coinciding with an incident that actually had very little in common with the dream as at all unlikely. The only element common to dream and real-life incident is that both involved water- the dream had a crystal city across a bay and sharks in it, no crow; the incident had a canal and a crow, but no crystal city and no sharks (though it would have been a little more impressive if there had been some really vicious guppies or something).

Sorry, it just sounds like you were talking to yourself via dream; no need to conjure mystic spiritual connections with the universe to explain what is only very loosely a "synchronicity" to begin with.

ETA- in case this comes across as at all harsh or even flip, it's not meant to be. I'm actually a big fan of "whatever works for you"- you seem like a sincere person who's come on his own to a personal way to get through the day; no problem there. But you seem to want to extend that to some universal truth that applies to everybody- and while you don't seem to be the type who would use that for any gain but your own, there are folks who would leap at the chance to profit themselves by gulling the gullible with just this sort of thing. My purpose is not to try to tear down something that may work for you in your life, but just to point out that that's all it's good for, as a personal thing; proselytes and profiteers have no such limiting qualms.

 

[dropzone]

Just yesterday I was listening to a podcast titled This Week in Parasitism where the hosts discussed a possible correlation between toxoplasmosis and schizophrenia and pointed out there was a correlation between the number of films made with Nicholas Cage and deaths by drowning. Correlation isn't causation.

Extra Bonus Coincidence: although I've been listening for years, this is the second time I've mentioned this podcast on this site in the last week.

It's real! Thank you! I loves me some parasites! Um, from a distance. It's why I live where there is a hard freeze every winter.

 

[Pixel42]

I just googled "dive bombed by crows" ( actually I just typed "dive bombed by" and selected the right option from the list Google gave me). This was the first link it offered me:

http://www.spca.bc.ca/about/faqs/crows-are-dive-bombing-me.html?referrer=https://www.google.co.uk/

Q - Crows are dive-bombing me – help!

Ahh, yes, the annual summer phenomenon of dive-bombing! It is normal for adult crows to dive-bomb people that are near their young. The problem is that their babies – which are almost the size of the adults by the time they come out of the nest – need to build up their flight muscles enough to fly (takes up to a week). Other ways to identify a fledgling crow is its blue eyes, reddish pink mouth and short tail. The babies will sit on the ground, calling to their parents overhead, who are very protective! It may appear that the crow on the ground is in distress but if there is no sign of blood or trauma, and the crow is not directly in harm's way (on a road, parking lot sidewalk), please leave the crow and warn others that fledgling crows are present. Avoid this area, but if you have to pass, take an umbrella! The parents are just trying to keep their young safe and see you as a potential predator – not to worry as this is only temporary and the parents will leave you alone as soon as their baby can fly off with them!

I'm sorry, blue triangle, but I don't even see a coincidence here, let alone a remarkable one.

 

[blue triangle]

So no evidence then? Anecdotes are not convincing at all.

I do have evidence of a phenomenon that is related to synchronicity, but this isn't the thread for it. The method by which it was created cannot be studied, but this phenomenon can be studied in detail.

If you are looking for direct evidence for experiences such as this or proof my interpretation is correct you will not find it, and therefore your conviction that they are delusions or misinterpretations won't change. I wouldn't be convinced either by anecdotes. All I can ask is that you keep your mind open a fraction.

 

[asydhouse]

I just googled "dive bombed by crows" ( actually I just typed "dive bombed by" and selected the right option from the list Google gave me). This was the first link it offered me:

http://www.spca.bc.ca/about/faqs/crows-are-dive-bombing-me.html?referrer=https://www.google.co.uk/



I'm sorry, blue triangle, but I don't even see a coincidence here, let alone a remarkable one.

Also, it is a common thing for any birds (or at least more than just crows) to fain injury to try to lead predators away from their young. Struggling along the ground is the normal tactic. Crows are very smart birds, and leading you to cross a stream would be an attractive addition to leading you away, as it would put an added barrier between you and the young, if you were to have followed it. Eyeing you from the other side to gauge your intentions would seem very crow-like.

I think Jung's idea of a collective unconscious is just a fancy way of talking about instinct. There really is no way that a disembodied state of a telepathic shared consciousness could exist.

I highly recommend this thread, and the video linked in the Opening Post, to inform yourself about the state of scientific knowledge about the forces in the universe. There simply is no room for an unknown force.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279144


ETA: Human beings are far more perceptive than we realise in our mundane lives. The richness of our consciousness and the unconscious assembly of clues (especially our sensitivity to each other) can present us with "feelings" which seem almost magical in their astute recognition of others' states of mind, and through which we can guide or teach ourselves beyond the apparent confusion of our little conscious egos. Embrace your depth of being, and accept that you are wiser than you know. It's your evolved brain that's responsible, not some mystical other. (Your brain extends throughout your body: the nervous system and its interaction with all the rest of your body's systems are all intimately connected, which is why I refer to your "bodymind", which is a poetic conception of your local biological being, poetically similar to the universal "spacetime" of which everything is composed.)


ETA 2: Confusingly, on the first page of the thread I linked to above, there are replies to quotes from an earlier thread. The posts from which the quotes in these replies are taken don't appear in this thread… they were posts in an earlier thread… this new thread is apparently a sort of continuation with a new starting OP to focus this thread on the video linked in the OP of this new thread. Some interesting comments in the discussion, and it all flows clearly enough if you don't start wondering where the quoted passages came from!

 

[blue triangle]

I think synchronicity involves a little more than just propinquity in time- there needs to be a factor of unlikely happenstance too. And I don't see having a rather vague (and, by your cite of the theologian's experience, not uncommon) dream that was probably prompted by what you say was a stressful situation at work coinciding with an incident that actually had very little in common with the dream as at all unlikely..

The theologian and myself both thought the dream worthy of note. A few dreams impress themselves on you - they feel like a message. This was one of them. Yes, synchronicity is more than just propinquity in time. It hinges on meaning, which connects the internal state and the eternal event. The meaning was the journey across water which both the crow and myself were taking. The canal was full of fish: pike, perch roach, etc. In my case it was the unconscious mind that had to be plunged into, and the sharks in there are the fears, hidden motivations, hatreds, etc, that separate us from wholeness. In Christian terms it is the sin that separates us from God.

It was only one of a plethora of synchronicities and other unusual experiences that were occurring to me during that period, all with the same message.

The only element common to dream and real-life incident is that both involved water- the dream had a crystal city across a bay and sharks in it, no crow; the incident had a canal and a crow, but no crystal city and no sharks (though it would have been a little more impressive if there had been some really vicious guppies or something)

In both dream and incident the important point was that the water was being crossed.

Sorry, it just sounds like you were talking to yourself via dream; no need to conjure mystic spiritual connections with the universe to explain what is only very loosely a "synchronicity" to begin with.

Don't you find the crow's behaviour unusual? I see in another reply the suggestion that the crow may have been dive-bombing me. It wasn't dive-bombing me at all and anyway that doesn't explain the performance it put on for me.

ETA- in case this comes across as at all harsh or even flip, it's not meant to be. I'm actually a big fan of "whatever works for you"- you seem like a sincere person who's come on his own to a personal way to get through the day; no problem there. But you seem to want to extend that to some universal truth that applies to everybody- and while you don't seem to be the type who would use that for any gain but your own, there are folks who would leap at the chance to profit themselves by gulling the gullible with just this sort of thing. My purpose is not to try to tear down something that may work for you in your life, but just to point out that that's all it's good for, as a personal thing; proselytes and profiteers have no such limiting qualms.

Your reply isn't harsh in the slightest and you seem like a sincere person yourself. I came here for discussion and debate. I have no wish to profit from my spiritual experiences; in fact taking 'the road less travelled' has cost me a great deal of money. But those taking the spiritual path often find that money comes very low on their list of priorities. Nor would I wish to proselytise. Everyone has their own path to follow. Whether or not the synchronicity was real it was certainly personal - I agree with you there - but the question of whether or not the phenomenon of synchronicity is real is of vital importance. If it is real it has universal application and tells us something profound about our universe itself.

 

[Pixel42]

What you described is textbook dive bombing, blue triangle. Just google dive bombing by birds and you will find videos of numerous examples. The distracting behaviour afterwards is also not unusual, as asydhouse explained. You said this took place in spring, which is exactly when birds are defending young.

You seem like a reasonable and thoughtful person, but you need to be willing to at least consider mundane explanations for your experiences if you're going to be taken seriously here. Denying the applicability of something that so obviously exactly fits what you describe is not a good start.

 

[blue triangle]

I just googled "dive bombed by crows" ( actually I just typed "dive bombed by" and selected the right option from the list Google gave me). This was the first link it offered me:


I'm sorry, blue triangle, but I don't even see a coincidence here, let alone a remarkable one.

You don't see a coincidence between what the crow was doing - struggling across water - and what my dreams were showing me at that very time? It was a remarkable event for me, as it would have been for anyone else who interacted with a performing crow, but the fact that it also coincided with those water-crossing dreams, and at the peak of a personal crisis, was surely significant! It also conformed to the pattern of synchronicities, of which this was only one - they happen during periods of psycho-spiritual crisis and internal transformation.

Okay, here's another one from the same period ( a month later). It was actually the fourth of four similar experiences, all related to the books of M. Scott Peck (famous for The Road Less Travelled) and all taking place between Christmas Eve and Easter Monday 1999, with obvious connotations. I simply don't have the time to write the four of them down, but they culminated in the following incident. On holiday at Easter I read most of In Search of Stones, an account by Dr. Peck of a journey through the UK he and his wife took to see standing stones. Returning home on Easter Monday I read a few pages, which included a passage where he described their visit to the Callanish stones on Easter Sunday. It included an amusing incident. His wife needed to go to the toilet but they were locked, it being 'the Sabbath' and the western Isles being rather more religious than the rest of the UK. So they toured around looking for a toilet and eventually found a little church in the middle of nowhere with two outside toilets, which mercifully were open.

I read just past that passage and put the book down. That day was my father's birthday so we went to give him his present. They had also been on holiday somewhere in the highlands, but we had no idea where. I walked in the door, handed my father his present and he immediately told me the following tale. He and my mother had gone to see the Callanish stones on Lewis the day before (Easter Sunday). My mother needed to go to the toilet but they were locked and they had to drive to a little church in the middle of nowhere with two outside toilets, which were the only ones open. This was exactly what had happened to the Pecks! My parents were also around the same age as the Pecks and had stayed in the same hotel as them. The correspondences between the two experiences were astounding to me and included an obvious message: you will find relief from your problems by becoming a Christian.

 

[blue triangle]

Also, it is a common thing for any birds (or at least more than just crows) to fain injury to try to lead predators away from their young. Struggling along the ground is the normal tactic. Crows are very smart birds, and leading you to cross a stream would be an attractive addition to leading you away, as it would put an added barrier between you and the young, if you were to have followed it. Eyeing you from the other side to gauge your intentions would seem very crow-like.

This is a very interesting point, and the crow may well have been defending a nest somewhere by distracting me. This explanation feels right. But that has no bearing at all on whether it was a synchronicity or not. The critical point is that it incident happened during a period when I was having the water-crossing dreams and at a critical point in a fight for my position at work. It was the timing that was meaningful. Now having dreams about crossing a body of water is nothing remarkable either, although only in the sense that everyoe has dreams - how the dream is compiled is another matter. But how could I have led myself into the crow experience with such perfect timing?

I think Jung's idea of a collective unconscious is just a fancy way of talking about instinct. There really is no way that a disembodied state of a telepathic shared consciousness could exist.

Jung certainly thought that there was and he gave rise to an entire school of psychology bsed partly on this insight, outside the mainstream certainly but highly respected. Have you heard of transpersonal psychology? The leading exponent is Stanislav Grof and it's difficult to read his brilliant and mind-expanding books (try The Holotropic Mind) without becoming convinced that some kind of non-local perception is going on in our minds.

"Most people live, whether physically, intellectually or morally, in a very restricted circle of their potential being. They make very small use of their possible consciousness, and of their soul's resources in general, much like a man who, out of his whole bodily organism, should get into a habit of using and moving only his little finger.” - William James

I highly recommend this thread, and the video linked in the Opening Post, to inform yourself about the state of scientific knowledge about the forces in the universe. There simply is no room for an unknown force.

Thanks for the links. This is a topic of great interest to me and I'm probably already aware of most of the contents of the video. But I'll check it out anyway. There IS room for an unknown force, incidentally, but much of paranormal experience, and even of spiritual experience, may be explainable in terms of known physics anyway, although the metaphysical implications may not be fully apprehended and are widely debated. This is getting interesting but I'm out of time. Be back.

ETA: Human beings are far more perceptive than we realise in our mundane lives. The richness of our consciousness and the unconscious assembly of clues (especially our sensitivity to each other) can present us with "feelings" which seem almost magical in their astute recognition of others' states of mind, and through which we can guide or teach ourselves beyond the apparent confusion of our little conscious egos. Embrace your depth of being, and accept that you are wiser than you know. It's your evolved brain that's responsible, not some mystical other. (Your brain extends throughout your body: the nervous system and its interaction with all the rest of your body's systems are all intimately connected, which is why I refer to your "bodymind", which is a poetic conception of your local biological being, poetically similar to the universal "spacetime" of which everything is composed.)

Yes, the brain extends throughout the body. The heart in particular has its own little 'brain', I'm told, and could almost be considered to be part of the brain. The mind may well be something else though and many spiritual experiences and psi phenomena necessitate something more than a localised brain for their operation. How could it work? The beginnings of an answer may be found in some interpretations of quantum theory, such as those of Hugh Everet (the 'many worlds' interpretation, currently all the rage in physics departments), David Bohm's implicate and explicate orders, the work of F. David Peat on synchronicity, the idea of constructive and destructive interference between relative states and much else.

ETA 2: Confusingly, on the first page of the thread I linked to above, there are replies to quotes from an earlier thread. The posts from which the quotes in these replies are taken don't appear in this thread… they were posts in an earlier thread… this new thread is apparently a sort of continuation with a new starting OP to focus this thread on the video linked in the OP of this new thread. Some interesting comments in the discussion, and it all flows clearly enough if you don't start wondering where the quoted passages came from!

Thanks for that. I will have a look.

 

[Pixel42]

You don't see a coincidence between what the crow was doing - struggling across water - and what my dreams were showing me at that very time?

Only a very small and insignificant one. Nor do I find your other example at all remarkable.

Coincidences happen. What would be remarkable, and require explanation, would be if they didn't happen. Some people are more primed to notice them and attach significance to them, but that doesn't mean the significance is really there.

 

[blue triangle]

What you described is textbook dive bombing, blue triangle. Just google dive bombing by birds and you will find videos of numerous examples. The distracting behaviour afterwards is also not unusual, as asydhouse explained. You said this took place in spring, which is exactly when birds are defending young.

Yes and I agree this is possibly what the bird was doing. It fits very well in fact. But that has no bearing on whether or not it was a genuine synchronicity, in other words, why the timing was so exquisite. I never stated that beyond the synchronicity anything mystical was going on.

You seem like a reasonable and thoughtful person, but you need to be willing to at least consider mundane explanations for your experiences if you're going to be taken seriously here. Denying the applicability of something that so obviously exactly fits what you describe is not a good start.

You also seem reasonable and thoughtful, but I would ask you to think again here.